Why bows and ability to make arrows is not good idea

[MrZombifiedGamer]

Wow, simply amazing. I loved the finished product too. Simply fantastic. 

[deprav]

That thread made me wanna try to craft a simple bow

Maybe I'll try someday, during summer.

[hrot]

Yeah, everything is nice and good,  now try to penetrate zombie's skull with that for example. Additionaly there is such a thing as tension, that bow don't have much of that. It can be good to shoot a bird from close distance (10-15 meters max maybe) and that's it. Also wood in USA is different than in south america, there is no bamboo and that's my point all the time - good bows are not easy to make.

 

Edit:  Average Joe don't have knowledge like people in tribes in your video.

[syfy]

Yeah, everything is nice and good,  now try to penetrate zombie's skull with that for example. Additionaly there is such a thing as tension, that bow don't have much of that. It can be good to shoot a bird from close distance (10-15 meters max maybe) and that's it. Also wood in USA is different than in south america, there is no bamboo and that's my point all the time - good bows are not easy to make.

 

Edit:  Average Joe don't have knowledge like people in tribes in your video.

do you really want to continue this? i've already established that the Bow and Arrow has been around for hundreds of years and has been used by numerous individual tribes in all parts of the world. in fact i guarantee you their are tribes that even today are still using a simple bow and arrow made from whatever materials they have at hand. these primitive bows have taken down all manners of prey in all types of conditions. and i conceded the truth that it is not an easy thing to do, it would require some trial and error.

 

it seems a big part of the issue here is that you are living with the assumption that the only things we will ever shoot with a bow or a gun is zombies. have you never noticed the actual names of the rifles we have (Hunting, Varmint)? we will have Hunting coming into the game at some point, along with NPC's both good and evil. if you want to disable a NPC without firing a gun and giving away your position, would you not use a bow and arrow?

 

oh yeah, the video.....i chose one at random. if you prefer an American using Alder could easily provide that. in fact, go crazy and watch all of these videos https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=making+a+bow+and+arrow

[Jsnazz]

Yeah, everything is nice and good,  now try to penetrate zombie's skull with that for example.

 

Find a shop, loot it and mimic like this guy

 

 

[Lionheart2]

Obviously everyone here has had different experiences with bows and arrows. (and guns, for that matter.) But I think we can all agree that they should be in game. It is the devs decision how difficult and powerful they will be.

[EnigmaGrey]

Re: Average Joe stuff
http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/10595-average-joe/ Should note that this post was made before the new professions system; it's addition may provide some flexibility as to the "average joe" concept expressed by Lemmy, as there are actual professions now. Personally, it's a quagmire: everyone seems to have a different opinion as to what it means.

Re:Bows
I like the concept of that survival bow, Syfy: plank (for simplicity) + knife + string = a poor facsimile of a bow

 

The traditional method of carving a stave is probably what everyone would try first . . . This video has an interesting take on it, using only green wood and laces (sadly looks pretty ineffective in the end):

 

[Spazmatic]

Conclusion: We should be able to learn skills from television. Just put CD in your dvd player and watch "Tribesman Show".

[Asrayl]

I could name a number of books detailing exquisitely the crafting of bows and arrows, as well as instructions on the proper usage of them. Any argument that says "we couldn't learn to do these things" is frankly, invalid. Kentucky has a vibrant and thriving hunting and fishing community, it would be more than simply "a stretch" to ask anyone to believe there wouldn't be some survivors in the area who would not only know -exactly- what they were doing with a bow, but frankly, would have more knowledge of bows than of firearms. 

 

While it is specialized knowledge, it isn't -rare- knowledge by any means. Bows, spears, clubs, these are the kinds of things we're going to fall back on, if the world we know ever falls apart. 

 

 

A little homework for anyone looking for extra credit. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_bow

 

 

 

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." 

[Spiff-Ivor]

For me, the bows were never difficult to make.

 

The arrows were. 

 

Flint knapping IS an incredibly difficult skill to learn, and requires tough hands and a lifetime of practice, it's really not easy. The best bet a survivor would have, would be to make arrows out of lots of layers of thin metal, like tins.

 

They can really do some damage (to a tree at least)

  

(And now I feel obliged to finish my D&D ranger. Fuuuuuuck, the barbarian is more interesting!)

[Asrayl]

For me, the bows were never difficult to make.

 

The arrows were. 

 

Flint knapping IS an incredibly difficult skill to learn, and requires tough hands and a lifetime of practice, it's really not easy. The best bet a survivor would have, would be to make arrows out of lots of layers of thin metal, like tins.

 

Tin snips, canned goods and glue. It's viable. Not preferable, but viable. 

 

Of course, broadheads are hunting tips. You'd have little trouble simply -finding- arrows in any major sporting or outdoor store. When it comes to fabricating arrows though, you'd probably be better off with a pair of pliers. Field tips would likely offer adequate penetration from a direct hit, if your bow was of sufficient draw. Easier to make, easy to retrieve as well. 

[Hydromancerx]

Playing with mods that have used Bows and Crossbows I have to say they are not overpowered at all. The fact that they are so much weaker than guns and that you have to reload for each arrow or bolt means that your constantly having to move. Unlike say a gun that can kill a zombie with one hit arrows and bolts take many hits. This can get out of hand with too many zombies. Ideally (as it should be) you should use them for defenses in a place where they cannot get to you. In this situation the lack of loud noises means you can defend your base without drawing every zombie from the area. But this also means ammo is harder to come by. While there are some arrows still used in modern day, chances are you will have to be crafting most of your arrows. This can be a lot of work, especially when one arrow typically is not killing one zombie. But as with Guns, your Marksmanship can improve over time and you can get better at hitting zombies. This makes total sense to me. In short bows are good for their quite nature, but will never have the power a gun has.

[Trojan_Turps]

I think we should all completely ignore the fact that it would be really hard to make a bow that was accurate and powerful enough to destroy a zombie's brain.

Bows are cool and I want to be robin hood!

I imagine that they will be ok for killing lone zombies quietly at relatively close range. Also useful for shooting over low defenses etc.

I don't see them being all that useful but they could be a lot of fun.

[MadDan]

I think we should all completely ignore the fact that it would be really hard to make a bow that was accurate and powerful enough to destroy a zombie's brain.

Bows are cool and I want to be robin hood!

I imagine that they will be ok for killing lone zombies quietly at relatively close range. Also useful for shooting over low defenses etc.

I don't see them being all that useful but they could be a lot of fun.

Well for a Hunter, if some trait or profession was in the game for bows/crossbows like there is for guns, they'd be useful for minimum noise in hunting animals when that feature is released. 

[Trojan_Turps]

Yeah they won't be useless just not over powered. (I hope?)

[Rathlord]

I will say on the crafting end of things for a bow, it's very hard to make one that's durable and powerful. You can make one that's decently powerful that lasts one shot (easily) or one that's quite durable but has very little power (easily), but making one that does both is quite challenging.

 

I've seen the argument, "oh but people have been doing it for thousands of years, therefor we could do it," but that's really a false argument, just like it is with blacksmithing: that was knowledge gleaned and expanded upon over thousands of years, the culmination of which led to the impressive finished product. No one ever went out and made a bow or forged iron without being taught, whether it's modern day in a school room or 1,000 years ago being taught by the village craftsman or tribal elders.

 

More specifically, making a durable and lasting bow requires two essential parts, both of which are fairly hard to come by:

 

1) The wood of the bow (sometimes called limb and back, or just limbs). This requires wood that is flexible, but flexible wood tends to have some problems. If it's green wood, it stops being flexible rather quickly as it dries. It also tends to strain and "fray" the wood fibers, which leads to it snapping eventually. There's been different ways to overcome this throughout the years- from heat treating in medieval times to laminating and using engineered lumber today. Picking the right kind of wood is critical- choose pine or cedar (some of the most common woods in the southern US) and you're doomed to failure. Which part of the tree you take is critical as well. Taking a branch almost always will end in failure. The best bows are made from approximately 50/50 heartwood (denser center rings of the tree) and sapwood (more recent growth nearer the outside). Taking a long vertical cut from near the center of the tree gives you 50/50 and allows you the flexibility and toughness to make a good quality piece. It can be quite hard to find good wood for this, though, as any knot or blemish is likely to snap quickly. Having the right thickness and length is also critical- too thick and it won't bend correctly, too thin and it will break or "set" (become bent by the tension of the string). Which brings us to the next point,

 

2) The string of the bow. Obviously string is something fairly common, but finding something that works as a bowstring is fairly challenging. Much like the wood, it has to be able to flex while also retaining its original size. If it stretches, it will be useless quickly. If it doesn't stretch, it will simply snap the string or the wood when you draw it. It's been made from many different materials in the past, such as tendon, but crafting a bow string out of raw materials is incredibly challenging and even I, someone who dabbles a fair bit in both archery and general survivalism have no idea about how to do it.

 

There's also concerns about how to store bows that many people don't know about. Hobby archers are quite common and they'd likely know to unstring a bow, but people who don't dabble in archery far outweigh those who do, meaning they might have no idea to unstring a bow. This can ruin not only the string, but also the wood. Bowstrings that get wet tend to stiffen, which will ruin them, so keeping them out of the weather is critical. The limbs of a bow should be protected from weather as well and taken care of.

 

I'm all for having bows in the game, but in my opinion if they are craftable it should be absolute garbage, much like the crafted axe: good for a few shots top and doing much less damage than looted bows.

 

Even with my fair amount of knowledge on the subject, the several times I've attempted to craft my own bows have all ended in eventual failure.

[Livio Persemprio]

I will say on the crafting end of things for a bow, it's very hard to make one that's durable and powerful. You can make one that's decently powerful that lasts one shot (easily) or one that's quite durable but has very little power (easily), but making one that does both is quite challenging.

 

snip-

 

I'm all for having bows in the game, but in my opinion if they are craftable it should be absolute garbage, much like the crafted axe: good for a few shots top and doing much less damage than looted bows.

 

Even with my fair amount of knowledge on the subject, the several times I've attempted to craft my own bows have all ended in eventual failure.

i totally agree, but on gameplay side i'd feel better with a crappy damange but medium durability handmade bow, since handmade axe is not just poor, sometimes i can't even cut a single tree with that, and it cost me two days (foraging bug leads to tiredness, once i have the materials i need to fix my sleep schedule). the real issue with handmade bows are the arrows, a good arrow requires skill to be both crafted and used, so i'd suggest to sets of arrow:1 - stiff arrows, with low range, high string consumption and better damage. 2 - flexible arrows, wich should be the best, but since they're made by amateurs, they'd have good range and less string consumption but crappy damage. this would add personality to the crafted bows, allowing 4 different combinations all with equal flaws

[Gaffa Tape Warrior]

If you can find fibreglass rods, as used as tent poles and maybe some other things, they can be used. PVC pipes can also be used. You could call this a benefit of being somewhere with so many artificial materials. I've never strung a strong bow before, but I would probably try some paracord first. Rathlord's post is very good.

[MrZombifiedGamer]

I'm not sure why there's even a comment that's anti-bow in the first place. There's no need to be against it bruh. Get a bow, shoot a zed and chill with me while we laugh at how badly we shoot arrows and get eaten. Actually, I'm kidding of course, I'd trip you... But I'll laugh at you being eaten... That being said I'll take this time to suggest that arrows should be made using rocks and sticks. Feathers too I guess... Also, bows should be made using wood and a guitar string. That's right, I said it, a guitar string. Have it play music every time you shoot an arrow. I demand this. Demand very politely with the utmost respect of course. But none the less I demand it.  

[Rathlord]

Demand, eh?

 

*Polishes banhammer while whistling quietly*

[MrZombifiedGamer]

*Polishes banhammer while whistling quietly*

 

Did I mention how much I love you guys???!?! Lol

[prototype2001]

So the character is smart enough to be an engineer but bow and arrow technology is beyond us?

That logic is filled with so many roleplaying/lore plotholes that i'll just end it here.

[EnigmaGrey]

So the character is smart enough to be an engineer but bow and arrow technology is beyond us?

That logic is filled with so many roleplaying/lore plotholes that i'll just end it here.

It's true, engineers are skilled bow makers in reality.

We can go back and forth like this all night, is what I'm trying to say.

[Rathlord]

So the character is smart enough to be an engineer but bow and arrow technology is beyond us?

That logic is filled with so many roleplaying/lore plotholes that i'll just end it here.

 

Engineers can be engineers, since that's an actual modern day profession. Go back and read my post, please: http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/13272-why-bows-and-ability-to-make-arrows-is-not-good-idea/?p=184726

 

 

Just because you have some vocational training doesn't mean you are capable of anything. Regardless of what preschool pep talks taught us about being able to do anything we put our minds to, some things actually have to be done RIGHT to work, and some things require actual knowledge about a subject to be done, not just good ol' fashioned 'Murican brilliance. All joking aside, though, there really is a lot to know about bowmaking that isn't common knowledge or just something you can logic out; foreknowledge is required.

[MrZombifiedGamer]

 

Snip

 

, not just good ol' fashioned 'Murican brilliance.

 

Why's it gotta be American? Why you being racist and calling us smart and stuff?!?! Lol