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Average Joe


Gimolia123

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Howdy, so, this is my first post... So if I come across as an idiot, please just ignore me and we'll forget this ever happened. 

 

Anyhow, I was browsing the suggestions forum and noticing how many different ideas are shot down due to this concept of an 'average Joe'. 

 

I propose a new sticky in the Suggestions thread; one that outlines exactly what a character has to be in order to fall in under this label. For instance, the concept of Average Joe makes absolutely no sense to me in the first place. An idea is shot down because an 'average Joe' is incapable of such a thing, well what on earth does that mean? For instance, in order to use a more recent suggestion, I'll use the 'Bullet Casting' proposal, in which a character can utilize the various useless accessories a zombie drops in order to cast their own bullets.

 

It was stated that an average Joe is incapable of this, and therefore should not be included in the game. Now, I'm not criticizing the fact that the idea was not well received, but I'm miffed that such was the primary argument against it. My Grandfather, for instance, was taught by his Uncle at a young age to cast bullets. It was something of a hobby for my great great Uncle, and neither one of them were Einstein, so doesn't that make them Average Joes?

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that we should have some sort of sticky regarding what our character is supposed to be. Instead of submitting an idea that is immediately deemed impossible, let's have guidelines so that you lovely people don't have to deal with answering the same things. To quote syfy, "oh no, not this again  :eek: "

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Remember gameplay over realism sometimes does have to be taken into effect. For instance how fun would this game be if you could only barricade some doors and windows well how fun would it be after what would you do to raise your carpentry level up all those extra planks and wood it's boring. So how do you fix this average joe wouldn't be able to make a house out of planks and nails (it would be possible but not plausible)

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1) Gather a wide sample of upwards of 1,000 people from around the world

2) Collaborate their self-professed skills and abilities, and

3) Those which more than, say, 35% of candidates are proficient in, would be the skill set of your 'anything-but-average Average Joe'.

In a perfect world, that's how I'd begin to define Joe.

 

Taking your 'non-Einstein' proposition - 

My father is a computer programmer, and he first got me interested in computer programming from a young age.

Now, my cousin twice-removed is also skilled with computer languages.

By your logic, shouldn't the 'Average Joe' also be skilled at programming?

 

Also, as bvhv stated, gameplay often takes precedence over realistic - often misconstrued as an Average Joe argument (not to say the Average Joe argument is always right, there'll always be people who personally don't know how to do something)

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Taking your 'non-Einstein' proposition - 

My father is a computer programmer, and he first got me interested in computer programming from a young age.

Now, my cousin twice-removed is also skilled with computer languages.

By your logic, shouldn't the 'Average Joe' also be skilled at programming?

Well, in regard to that, what I was trying to get at is that I don't believe there is such a thing as an average Joe. No one on this planet is 'average' simply because there are no subjects that perfectly equate to what average is in order to draw comparisons. 

Like, what I mean is that... Well, to be frank, I'm not entirely certain what I mean now. I was thinking a set of rules to follow that sort of gives the suggester something to contemplate. Now I just realize I'm being an idiot, as casting bullets is something significant and advanced, far above what anyone would consider average (as flexible as the term is). I think I have a gist now, sorry to have brought this up at all when a little bit of thinking would have saved me from my own... 'Cleverness'.

I also see what you're saying bvhv, thank you for the perspective in that regard. I wasn't thinking.

 

Again, sorry y'all. Maybe a little thought before I open my mouth next time.

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Hey, it's fine.

Sometimes you have to let the ideas flow from your head before you can look at them from another perspective.

 

It's a legitimate concern that I imagine others might share, and hopefully they can debate the idea of 'Average Joe' with some different insight now you've shared yours.

 

I like to dismantle word combinations like 'Average Joe', into their atomic parts. As you've pointed out, the 'average' man doesn't (likely) exist physically, but the concept of the average man has to exist, solely because the average man would be a combination of every man in existence portioned out respectively (or however you'd like to word the definition of average, in terms of a man)

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Before discussing anything: Welcome to the forum!! 

 

Now we can talk  :D

 

Don't be too hard on yourself. The set of rules or guides you were proposing was not a bad idea, as the idea of Average Joe might be a little confusing for some people, but since the Average Joe is a set of rules itself (although not described at all) it can seem some kind of pointless idea.

 

So cheer up and don't be shy!

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Snip OP

 

Well here is my point of view of "Bullet Casting" and the  "Average Joe", just think for a second, lets say shit hits the fan and we have actual zombies now in the world, you have a gun but not bullets, can you make the bullets out of the stuff in your house?

 

And before you say yes, lets say there is not internet, so you cant serch how to do it, so you would need to serch for the books to read how to do it, and it will take a quite some time to understand it fully so your bullet dosent blow up in the gun.

But then we have the problem of the materials, now most books about casting bullets will tell you to use certain equipments, so unless you find a book telling you how to make bullets out of home stuff, you are not getting far without the right equipment and materials (alloys,lead,molds).

 

So in theory an avrege joe is not going to think to make his own bullets, until really later on when people really needs to start making their own bullets, for the same fact he needs to learn how to, but before that, he will read first how to farm, how to do other important stuff to cover the basics.

 

I dont know, i just think some folk might want to loot bullets for the time begin than risk making their own.

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I imagine the Average Joe in Muldraugh or West Point is not so average given Muldraugh's rural location and the fact that it's right next to a military base.

A lot of people in that area probably have experience handloading -- at least with shotgun shells.

 

Not that I think handloading/reloading really makes sense in the context of the game. It's not like you're going to be able to make your own powder and so the only real use would be transferring powder from one ammo type to another. Or I guess making custom bullets for greater accuracy/power.

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I imagine the Average Joe in Muldraugh or West Point is not so average given Muldraugh's rural location and the fact that it's right next to a military base.

A lot of people in that area probably have experience handloading -- at least with shotgun shells.

 

Not that I think handloading/reloading really makes sense in the context of the game. It's not like you're going to be able to make your own powder and so the only real use would be transferring powder from one ammo type to another. Or I guess making custom bullets for greater accuracy/power.

The PZ canon leaves room for discussion on how or why the 'Average Joe' was in Muldraugh at the time of (or some time thereafter) the Outbreak.

There's nothing preventing the possibility that you (the Player) were a tourist passing through on your way elsewhere, and actually lived in Berlin, but were on the search of your heritage in graveyards across the US.

Then again, you're 'playing' the character - and if you're roleplaying, you might want to be a local, with his/her own house, an intimate knowledge of the surrounding area, and a little bit of gun smarts.

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Here is my philosophy on average joes. ( these are rural American average joes)

Can use firearms, adapt with them

Knowledge on how to farrm/garden

Knowledge of carpentry

Good survival skills

This really all depends on how you want to experience pz.

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There's nothing preventing the possibility that you (the Player) were a tourist passing through on your way elsewhere, and actually lived in Berlin, but were on the search of your heritage in graveyards across the US.

Then again, you're 'playing' the character - and if you're roleplaying, you might want to be a local, with his/her own house, an intimate knowledge of the surrounding area, and a little bit of gun smarts.

 

Well, the professions and the various starting locations for the professions does sort of imply that you aren't a tourist but I suppose anything is possible.

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So the player is an "average Joe".

 

How about learning some not so average skills from some not-exactly-average-Joe-NPC you have to find/meet ingame?

 

Maybe there could be one NPC, who knows how to, for example, cast bullets.

You could meet people, who have one or two special skills and, as it would be in reality, give their knowledge to others.

 

You're still an average Joe, but you've met someone, who taught you some special skill.

As long as you make friends with him and don't have shot him right away...

 

I guess the best way to survive the zombocalypse is to find people who can teach you their portion of known skills to survive a.k.a. build a group and help each other.

 

I want bullet-casting and/or -dealing NPCs    -    nao plx! :o)

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As others said, I think the 'Average Joe' thing is quite self explanatory. I wouldn't have a CLUE how to 'cast' a bullet, nor for that matter have the equipment at hand to cast a bullet. If I asked every friend I had, literally all of them would have no clue how they could, in the civilized non-apocalypse world, get access to the materials, machinery AND skill to MAKE a bullet. If we were to poll people on this forum, I'd be surprised if any had ever 'cast' a bullet. This in itself makes casting bullets an unrealistic thing to expect any particular random survivor in post-apocalypse Muldraugh to be able to do.

 

An 'Average Joe' can't do advanced circuitry, or create a sniper rifle out of household items, or do kung-fu, or parkour. An average joe can do the things you can do, and I can do, and the majority of people on this forum can do, and if you just so happen to be a bullet manufacturer then you are not AVERAGE in your ability to do so. The % of people that can do that in America probably doesn't touch 0.000001%. The vast majority of people would not be able to even find a book that explained how one would make a homemade bullet, never mind already know that information or have probably a difficult to accumulate series of items required to do that, as well as potentially machinery or tools with which to use to operate on those items.

 

In TWD its not a stretch to see Daryl whittling his own crossbow bolts, and we see that several times. It would however seem rather odd to have a random scene where Beth is sat there casting bullets. Viewers would be quick to comment on 'where did she get all the materials? what does Beth know about casting bullets? Wha?' It'd just be weird.

 

In short, the guideline is to go through every character you can think of in TWD and imagine there being in a random scene in an episode of them doing whatever it is, and if for any of the characters that seems really odd, out of character, and out of their skillset, then its probably not an 'Average Joe' situation..

 

The idea of this game is to say 'what would you do if there actually WAS a zombie apocalypse. Like you, IRL, what's your plan?' and to start filling the game with unrealistic things that almost no one would or could do, just in case one in 10,000 actually happens to have some really unusual skill that may prove helpful, is basically against the core premise of the game. The same reason why people aren't running around with assault rifles, flame throwers, grenades and katanas aren't found in every cupboard (though I don't doubt the assault rifles will make an appearance with the army, and katanas may be added as a SUPER rare item at some point)

 

On the other hand, maybe filing down the head of a bullet is more reasonable, and something a lot of people may be familiar with from movies and TV. I'm not sure what the application would be in the game, but this is the kind of thing you'd expect an Average Joe to be able to consider, and the core components required to do this being a bullet and a file, it's not completely ridiculous to expect a character to come across these two items in potentially months following the apocalypse.

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I suppose this is the main problem with the average joe argument . . . anyone as a kid learn to cast basic decorative objects with plaster and lead? I'm sure there are a few of you. That can likely be applied to a lead bullet without a great deal of hardship, but I doubt the casing, primer and all that other fun stuff would be simple.

How many average Joes are going to know their knots well enough to somehow tie up a log wall, for example, or forage for edible foodstuffs on the ground? Sure, some of us might know what field greens are, but trips to the grocery store to pick up blister-packages of the stuff don't exactly prepare us well for the real thing . . .

Very awkward thing to draw a line. :D

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I suppose this is the main problem with the average joe argument . . . anyone as a kid learn to cast basic decorative objects with plaster and lead? I'm sure there are a few of you. That can likely be applied to a lead bullet without a great deal of hardship, but I doubt the casing, primer and all that other fun stuff would be simple.

How many average Joes are going to know their knots well enough to somehow tie up a log wall, for example, or forage for edible foodstuffs on the ground? Sure, some of us might know what field greens are, but trips to the grocery store to pick up blister-packages of the stuff don't exactly prepare us well for the real thing . . .

Very awkward thing to draw a line. :D

 

Then again if you saw a scene in TWD with beth putting up a log wall, or foraging for food, it may be as you say a stretch to expect her to happen to have all the skills as an 'average joe', I doubt you'd question it in the same way as her sat casting bullets, or if she suddenly started doing kung-fu and beheading zombies with roundhouse kicks :D you'd just assume she did have that particular know how and it's not really implausible that she may happen to. And if she didn't have the know how that some other character may have taught her how to do the knots. It's something very teachable that in a group along with more outdoorsy types it would be feasable to expect someone to know how to do it. If there was an IRL zombie apocalypse here, I wouldn't be surprised if I ran into people who had that skill set. There's a lot more hunters, fishers, carpenters in the world than there are bullet casters. And in this example, Beth, as someone who grew up on a farm its perfectly reasonable to assume she has the necessary skills to do both of these despite the fact I couldn't put up a log wall or forage for food to save my life.

 

It's in 'suspension of disbelief' territory certainly.

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Only if there was a scene of her studying the Children's Encyclopedia of Knowledge and its chapter on log construction. ;)

 

Well I wasn't really involved in the new log wall stuff so I'm not aware of what level they are in particular, I'm guessing from the context that they are buildable at level 0, but really this is what happens for carpentry generally in the game :)

 

Just saying, 'Bullet Casting for Beginners' would have to be a pretty damn rare loot spawn :D Rare enough to the point that adding this entire game feature would not be a good use of dev time considering how often it should factor realistically into gameplay.

 

Building log cabins etc however...

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If everybody in the game is an average joe, then why do we even need the professions?

 

My 2 cents is, that instead of trying to have an "all-mighty, but not too mighty average joe" you should enforce the different qualities a profession could bring. Currently it doesn't even really matter which profession you play and I'm not talking about how a police officer can shoot with +2 Acc. 

 

Why not have professions which REALLY have some value. E.g. an engineer who could repair electrics or set up a generator, a farmer who is the only one who knows how to grow stuff, a carpenter who is the only one to build more elaborate constructions like beds or doors.

 

After all, if you don't have any special skills you probably are going to die pretty fast anyway.

 

This would also mean, that in multiplayer people would have to think twice about shooting the carpenter they just found scavenging through the nearest warehouse, because he could actually be very useful to their own group.

 

Just my own thoughts on the whole issue, but I understand that it is hard to find the perfect balance there.

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I think a lot of the skill balancing/professions will have to take place after NPCs are in, and so a complete set of skills can be represented across a group of people rather than it being necessary that one person has to be able to do everything.

I agree, but I don't see why in the zombie apocalypse there should only be groups of average joes. If you look at most of the zombie movies, novels then most survivor groups consists of specialised individuals.

Maybe it's just that I don't see where you draw that "line" of what is "average joe" and what isn't.

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No, that's what I mean, but didn't express properly. Everyone (or most) can be an average joe with an area of specialty, but all of this will have to be balanced after NPCs are added.

 

I dream of the day where i see a MP server with other people using other proffesions other than Construction Worker.

 

I just hope that when the proffesions overhaul comes, it really makes us think what proffesion we need and what other proffesions we could find in another NPC/Players (also i am waiting to see those NPCs with no proffesions who are good at nothing, the real joe)

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Yeah this is going to be good :)

Imo you guys could even go further and open certain knowledges & skills to their corresponding profession, relying on the character's pre-apocalypse knowledge !

Exemples :
pre-apocalypse doctors/vets/nurses could use certain medical supplies and heal deep wounds etc...
pre-apocalypse woodworker could eventually use certain tools to build structures and furnitures without nails.
pre-apocalypse *something gun related* could carve bullets if they find the requiered supplies.
pre-apocalypse construction worker could have access to "electric wiring" skill tree.
pre-apocalypse gangsters could know how to start a car without keys.
pre-apocalypse burglars could know how to lockpick or notice house alarms.
and so on...
Not every profession would have to get its own special knowledge, but it could be compensated by other bonus.


"Average joe" doesn't mean "not capable", I think we'd be surprise what a random dude could accomplish in such extreme situations and environment ! And everyone have their own field of predilection.
But what "average joes" like us can't do is figuring out and crafting stuff that would need long learning process and specific materials, creating unlikely situations : Forging, foraging and making fuel, crafting radio-controlled explosives, finding a cure and saving the world, flying a space rocket, shooting laser beams with our fingers...

Tho on the precise topic of "The log wall", I'm pretty sure anyone can figure it out after a few tries, that doesn't seem out of reach of any average joe's mind.


Edit :

I missed a few posts before posting, I'm kind of saying what RoboMat is saying, sorreh 'bout that !

 

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