RichCoconut Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 "Valve has implemented a new "Game Ban" policy on Steam, allowing game developers to permanently ban Steam users from individual games, the company announced recently.Through the game ban initiative, Valve is allowing developers to run their own systems to "detect and permanently ban any disruptive players, such as those using cheats," according to a Steam Community page that explains what a game ban is. This is separate from Valve Anti-Cheat, the technology that is already built into Steam.If a developer discovers a player who is cheating, the company notifies Valve, which issues the game ban on the player's Steam account for that particular game. Until now, only Valve has been able to root out cheaters and ban them."The game developer is solely responsible for the decision to apply a game ban," Valve noted. "Valve only enforces the game ban as instructed by the game developer." via Polygon. Thoughts? Will this help PZ at all? Bosco and nasKo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmy101 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Oh wow. This is.... interesting. However I'd only be comfortable banning people from the multiplayer aspects of the game. I don't think even cheaters, as much as I might hate them, deserve to lose the entire game they paid for, I dunno. Rass, CaptKaspar, RichCoconut and 11 others 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasKo Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I can imagine developers will have to jump through quite some hoops in order to be approved for this system. Overall, I think it's a great system, though. silents429 and RichCoconut 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCoconut Posted May 1, 2015 Author Share Posted May 1, 2015 Oh wow. This is.... interesting. However I'd only be comfortable banning people from the multiplayer aspects of the game. I don't think even cheaters, as much as I might hate them, deserve to lose the entire game they paid for, I dunno. Maybe later in the roadmap they might implement a feature where you can disable the multiplayer portion of the game, or certain things so you can narrow the scope down better. You do have a point there about the buying of a game they paid for, but on one end if someones just tainting server after server with hacks.. It's worth paying attention to none the less, but of course, this is ultimately unto you guys & gals. Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasKo Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Oh wow. This is.... interesting. However I'd only be comfortable banning people from the multiplayer aspects of the game. I don't think even cheaters, as much as I might hate them, deserve to lose the entire game they paid for, I dunno.That's exactly what it is. It only bans you from playing games online. It does not prevent you from launching the game or playing offline.Very nice system. I hope GTA will use this. Getting a bit frustrating in GTA Online. RichCoconut, blindcoder and CaptKaspar 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmy101 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Oh nice. Then I'm totes for this, it's just how to handle it fairly and justly and without massive administrative cost to us. It would certainly make the official TIS servers a perilous place for hackers to hang out, I'll say that much RichCoconut, blindcoder, Gustav and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 It's a very interesting idea, for sure. I'm not sure if I'm for or against it, though. On the one hand, it will almost certainly make for a better multiplayer experience in almost every case. You could make the point that the system might be open for abuse, but my main concern is that it is further eroding the concept of "purchasing a game." I've always been worried (read: paranoid) because Steam Terms of Use were changed a few years back to say that all you're purchasing is a license to play the game. That means you aren't protected under consumer laws in most countries (some parts of the EU possibly excepted). It also means, legally, that they have the right to do anything they want with your game, including taking it away completely. This is the first step they've taken towards that, and in that regard I find it a bit worrisome with a focus on the future. Further, while in many titles they may not be "taking the game away," in some they very much will be. Any MMO or MOBA, for example, as well as several other genres (L4D, et al.) are solely multiplayer experiences. If the dev happens to ban you, you have lost that purchase entirely. Tl;dr I think it will be good for multiplayer communities but I'm terrified of what it means for consumer rights and game ownership. Sharpened Pata, hrot, CaptKaspar and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindcoder Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I'm not all that aware with consumer protection laws right now, but IIRC even with retail copies at a game store, all you get is a license. This makes sense, because even we say "I bought game X" all you really buy is a license to run "game X" and not all the rights to all the assets to use as you please (music, textures, models, characters, etc). While the license to a boxed copy might still be revocable by law, it's much harder to enforce any such revocation. That's where Steam has a much bigger handle.I just hope that there's a reasonable check and the possibility to challenge any such bans if the player feels they are wrongfully accused. Especially if people were "just" frustrated enough to be assholes for a moment. Sieben and nasKo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboMat Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I can imagine developers will have to jump through quite some hoops in order to be approved for this system.Overall, I think it's a great system, though. It might suck for people who share their accounts though *wink wink nudge nudge* Batsphinx and RichCoconut 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I'm not all that aware with consumer protection laws right now, but IIRC even with retail copies at a game store, all you get is a license. This makes sense, because even we say "I bought game X" all you really buy is a license to run "game X" and not all the rights to all the assets to use as you please (music, textures, models, characters, etc). I'm not 100% sure about the license/purchase of a boxed game, though as far as I know as long as you've purchased physical media you still own the rights to use it. The key words are "own" and "purchase." According to Valve Terms of Use, what you're doing on Steam is not "purchasing" anything, it's more like a rental. And that means you aren't protected by ANY consumer protection laws (laws that protect you from scams, willful negligence, etc.) and you don't own anything at all. There've been smarter people than me who've broken down the specifics of what this means for people, but in short it's "not good." I'll see if I can't find some sources later this afternoon. blindcoder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustav Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I don't get this. Admins can just ban Players from the servers and not remove the game someone *bought*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I don't get this. Admins can just ban Players from the servers and not remove the game someone *bought*.That's not true for many, many games. RichCoconut 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deprav Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 It's a very interesting idea, for sure. I'm not sure if I'm for or against it, though. On the one hand, it will almost certainly make for a better multiplayer experience in almost every case. You could make the point that the system might be open for abuse, but my main concern is that it is further eroding the concept of "purchasing a game." I've always been worried (read: paranoid) because Steam Terms of Use were changed a few years back to say that all you're purchasing is a license to play the game. That means you aren't protected under consumer laws in most countries (some parts of the EU possibly excepted). It also means, legally, that they have the right to do anything they want with your game, including taking it away completely. This is the first step they've taken towards that, and in that regard I find it a bit worrisome with a focus on the future. Further, while in many titles they may not be "taking the game away," in some they very much will be. Any MMO or MOBA, for example, as well as several other genres (L4D, et al.) are solely multiplayer experiences. If the dev happens to ban you, you have lost that purchase entirely. Tl;dr I think it will be good for multiplayer communities but I'm terrified of what it means for consumer rights and game ownership. I've mixed feelings as well, but I think I like it.It does blur the line inbetween "owning" and "purchasing" a game, but if it's solely for anti-cheat purpose I think I'm ok with it. I don't see Steam going further and abusing customers who paid for the game, it would be some very nasty press for them, they're only a company selling goods & games for entertainment purpose, not a government or a huge lobby, they couldn't afford turning their player base against them.Also, people who purchase a game do with the hope to fully enjoy the experience the game as to propose and shouldn't have to put up with players ruining that experience. It doesn't keep people from buying another copy of the game on a new steam account to keep doing what they're doing tho, it's a thing on CS:GO...It kind of just offers the possibility to Vac-ban players for indie games. RichCoconut 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmy101 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Hmmm that's a really interesting point deprav - when thinking of the rights of the person who purchased the game not to lose access to that game, it's easy to forget the rights of other players not to have the online game effectively non-functional due to cheaters. That all said I don't think its the Indie Stone way to kick people out of our entire game, so only personally game for locking off the online element. But that should be pretty easy to do ourselves with a centralized steam name database once Steamworks is integrated fully, if this functionality doesn't turn out to be online specific. deprav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deprav Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Hmmm that's a really interesting point deprav - when thinking of the rights of the person who purchased the game not to lose access to that game, it's easy to forget the rights of other players not to have the online game effectively non-functional due to cheaters. That all said I don't think its the Indie Stone way to kick people out of our entire game, so only personally game for locking off the online element. But that should be pretty easy to do ourselves with a centralized steam name database once Steamworks is integrated fully, if this functionality doesn't turn out to be online specific. Yeah completely banning someone from his/her singleplayer access would be pretty harsh. There's only one way to know for sure : one of you guys have to create a steam account and add a fresh serial-key for PZ on it, and then request a game-ban :] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmatic Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Many hackers use copy from russian torrent sites... This is the main problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustav Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I don't get this. Admins can just ban Players from the servers and not remove the game someone *bought*.That's not true for many, many games. Then make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaGrey Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Many hackers use copy from russian torrent sites... This is the main problem.Then the admin must implement a whitelist and ban by IP (through the game or through the server). Not much else that can be done. RichCoconut 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarog Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Yeah completely banning someone from his/her singleplayer access would be pretty harsh. There's only one way to know for sure : one of you guys have to create a steam account and add a fresh serial-key for PZ on it, and then request a game-ban :] Well, let's be honest, if someone is a douche big enough to troll and cheat in MP, if he gets a ban and can't play SP he'll just torrent the thing and then go on a campaign to spread the word on how he was 'conned' out of his money. It would be a PR nightmare and if it worked like that it would be extremely silly to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCoconut Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 Yeah completely banning someone from his/her singleplayer access would be pretty harsh. There's only one way to know for sure : one of you guys have to create a steam account and add a fresh serial-key for PZ on it, and then request a game-ban :] Well, let's be honest, if someone is a douche big enough to troll and cheat in MP, if he gets a ban and can't play SP he'll just torrent the thing and then go on a campaign to spread the word on how he was 'conned' out of his money. It would be a PR nightmare and if it worked like that it would be extremely silly to say the least. If someone isn't playing the game the way it's meant to be played, or as advertised, and constantly attack servers however... More information must be revealed before being sure about it, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmatic Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Many hackers use copy from russian torrent sites... This is the main problem.Then the admin must implement a whitelist and ban by IP (through the game or through the server). Not much else that can be done. Maybe this system: client → authorization server → server Trojan_Turps 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaGrey Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Many hackers use copy from russian torrent sites... This is the main problem.Then the admin must implement a whitelist and ban by IP (through the game or through the server). Not much else that can be done.Maybe this system: client → authorization server → serverNot very effective either, as it can be DDoS'd, spoofed, or circumvented in some way, as is (or was) common with MineCraft. Steam, on the other hand, has a great deal more resources to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasKo Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Hmmm that's a really interesting point deprav - when thinking of the rights of the person who purchased the game not to lose access to that game, it's easy to forget the rights of other players not to have the online game effectively non-functional due to cheaters. That all said I don't think its the Indie Stone way to kick people out of our entire game, so only personally game for locking off the online element. But that should be pretty easy to do ourselves with a centralized steam name database once Steamworks is integrated fully, if this functionality doesn't turn out to be online specific.That would essentially be the same, with the drawback that Steam's "gamebans" automatically apply to both parties of family shared accounts, which would be the workaround for the system you seem to have in mind.As stated, Steam's "Game bans" are only for the online element so seemingly exactly what we could be looking for. https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6899-IOSK-9514If a developer communicates a ban request to Valve, is the offending player banned from launching that game – or from using Steam entirely? And, for how long? The effects of the game ban are determined by the developer, and must be consistent with a VAC ban, such as being prevented from playing online with other players and/or trading items for that game. It cannot prevent the user from launching and playing the game offline. It cannot prevent the user from using Steam.The duration of the game ban is determined by the developer. Only permanent game bans are displayed on the user’s profile. Temporary game bans, or suspensions, are not displayed. Does this mean developers can take my games away from me?No. The developer can only impose restrictions consistent with VAC, such as preventing online play and/or prevent the trading of items for that game.It might suck for people who share their accounts though *wink wink nudge nudge* </3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboMat Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I still think, Titanfall had the best idea about how to deal with cheaters so far. </3q.q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasKo Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I still think, Titanfall had the best idea about how to deal with cheaters so far. </3q.q GTA Online has a similar approach, depending on the offense (putting you in a cheater pool. Some minor disturbances give you a dunce hat for a few days, as well).VAC has a similar effect like Titanfall, just that it outright tells you you are banned and forced to play with cheaters instead of silently matching you against them. Too bad it didn't help making Titanfall more popular (looking at you, other 200 people currently playing...) RichCoconut and EnigmaGrey 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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