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Gun Ownership in America

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4 hours ago, alpha said:


Pretty cool video!

Personally, I like playing solo. I'm not much of a multiplayer type of guy. I don't find guns to be particularly useful at all. The zombie drawing effect coupled with the small amount of ammo makes me skip collecting guns and ammo in the post zombie apocalypse world.....BUT I do get tired of killing zombies with a bat/crowbar. I long for a varied zombie killing experience. Enter the silencer!

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Suppressor

That was just the first link I found. There are hundreds of tutorials on how to turn boom-sticks into quiet-sticks, so I think the silencer would fit quiet well into the crafting aspect of the game. Let me preempt someone saying "there is mod for that. mod your game and leave mine alone", I have seen those mods.

The vanilla game should be modified in some way because it isn't balanced when it comes to firearms. Because of the rarity of ammo, the amount of skill need to actually be effective with a gun, and the massive crowd of zombies you get when firing a gun, guns are more of a novelty than a balanced choice when it comes to playing a character. I want guns to be part of the story of how I died, instead of just wistfully thinking they could play a role.

- The ridiculously buff dude from bashing zombie skulls

oh boy, you may not have been around for some of the Silencer/ Suppressor thread battles we have had in here. to call it divisive may be an understatement. check out some of these threads to see just how....heated...this topic can get

 

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15504-silencer-andor-makeshift-silencer/#comment-191580

 

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11876-yet-another-silencer-thread-that-will-be-locked-if-it-gets-out-of-hand/&page=2

 

hmmm, that may not work like it used to. if you cannot go to the thread, just search for either silencer or suppressor in the search feature

Edited by syfy

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At some stage there will be more types of guns added. However, the actual balance of the game may result in there being a less than there may be in Kentucky, if we feel that this is needed for balance. Gameplay > Realism is always our choice, we just like to keep it as real as we can within gameplay confines. But yes you're not going to be picking up suppressors and similar to pop on your gun in every other house certainly. Also at any future point we get the military in all bets are off from heavier gear at that point, but of course such things would be only in military hands not in peoples wardrobes.

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If you check out some of those links you can find quite a lot of citations from yours truly that pretty solidly shut down the whole silencer/suppressor debate. Even the best, professionally suppressed weapons with subsonic ammo can be heard from so far away that, translated into game terms (due to the amount of the map that's streamed) they would make no functional difference. 

 

There's a whole slew of other excellent reasons also, but that's the one that matters most. 

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17 hours ago, lemmy101 said:

At some stage there will be more types of guns added. However, the actual balance of the game may result in there being a less than there may be in Kentucky, if we feel that this is needed for balance. Gameplay > Realism is always our choice, we just like to keep it as real as we can within gameplay confines. But yes you're not going to be picking up suppressors and similar to pop on your gun in every other house certainly. Also at any future point we get the military in all bets are off from heavier gear at that point, but of course such things would be only in military hands not in peoples wardrobes.


So we can find these on military corpses and sites later on in the game? Why not add in randomized helicopter crashes around Knox and the outskirts of West Point?

 

Edited by sharkstertheshark

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5 minutes ago, sharkstertheshark said:


So we can find these on military corpses and sites later on in the game? Why not add in randomized helicopter crashes around Knox and the outskirts of West Point?

 

 

Most likely because military-grade gear is not something they particularly want in the game right now. The whole point of it is to pretty much keep it out of the player's hands for the most part, or make it very difficult to acquire. Making "loot drops" is not really something that fits in the game anyways in my humble opinion.

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5 minutes ago, Rathlord said:

 

Most likely because military-grade gear is not something they particularly want in the game right now. The whole point of it is to pretty much keep it out of the player's hands for the most part, or make it very difficult to acquire. Making "loot drops" is not really something that fits in the game anyways in my humble opinion.

 

Loot drops are one of the two solutions I can think of where not every man and his dog can have an assault rifle other military gear. Hell, you could have M35's filled randomly with certain gear that have been abandoned later on in the game. The only other way I really could see people getting it is shooting soldiers (i have a sneaking suspicion that they will be an antagonist) and stealing gear or having deserters join you.

Edited by sharkstertheshark

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On 3/25/2016 at 1:17 AM, sadpickle said:

This is true. I always appreciated the end of the 1990 remake of Night of the Living Dead; rednecks basically end the zombie outbreak in a night with their overwhelming firepower. However I find ammo incredibly scarce in PZ. Even if you were to triple the amount of ammo available, it would barely make a dent in the zombie pop. You could use it to add extra flavor to the "6 Months Later" start, when ammo is essentially spent.

It may not be legal, but as an Arizonan who sold firearms I can tell you, there are plenty of people who buy semi-auto ARs with the full intention of converting them to fully-auto. It's not a particularly difficult conversion. I can only imagine what it's like in the rural southeast :)

In Florida, well, guns are mostly common. Especially inside those more rural areas where you can easily find the typical hunting people and whatnot, I know someone who has uh

9mm Carbine

A .45

A .38 Special

An AR15

A double barreled and a single-shot shotgun

Two 22. rifles

A .308 rifle, and a few more others that I forgot. I wonder what the exact count is here, for guns. 

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15 minutes ago, Lieutenant Colonel Spider said:

In Florida, well, guns are mostly common. Especially inside those more rural areas where you can easily find the typical hunting people and whatnot, I know someone who has uh

9mm Carbine

A .45

A .38 Special

An AR15

A double barreled and a single-shot shotgun

Two 22. rifles

A .308 rifle, and a few more others that I forgot. I wonder what the exact count is here, for guns. 

I can vouch for this. We Floridians are pretty packed. Never know when the south will rise again.

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1 minute ago, sharkstertheshark said:

I can vouch for this. We Floridians are pretty packed. Never know when the south will rise again.

I'm a Floridian and the best I've got is my bow and a strong pellet gun. 

 

Can I even call myself a Floridian? eh well of course I can that'd just be stupid, since I don't own a weapon I can't be called something? Where's the logic there? There is none!

I honestly don't get the entire reason for owning such weaponry, not against guns or rooting for them while shooting a rifle outside but all you really need is at least 2-3 and you'll be set for defense. (Yes, I do know that guns are also bought for recreational use.)

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13 minutes ago, Lieutenant Colonel Spider said:

I'm a Floridian and the best I've got is my bow and a strong pellet gun. 

 

Can I even call myself a Floridian? eh well of course I can that'd just be stupid, since I don't own a weapon I can't be called something? Where's the logic there? There is none!

I honestly don't get the entire reason for owning such weaponry, not against guns or rooting for them while shooting a rifle outside but all you really need is at least 2-3 and you'll be set for defense. (Yes, I do know that guns are also bought for recreational use.)

I know that AR rifles are used for curving boars up north. I should get around to making a Florida map sometime.

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6 hours ago, Livio Persemprio said:

Why arguing over suppressors when bows are pl7anned?

Yeah basically if I'm completely honest - we'll make accessibility of such things balanced to be as real as we can. No promises obv  but if there's a cool thing off of the walking dead thats realistic and plausable we'll likely be looking to give pz players the option at sone stage because we'd be colossal dippy morons not to :D

 

Stuff like this only possible with physics tho so post vehicles if at all 

 

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3 minutes ago, lemmy101 said:

Yeah basically if I'm completely honest - we'll make accessibility of such things balanced to be as real as we can.  but if there's a cool thing off of the walking dead thats realistic and plausable we'll likely be looking to give pz players the option at sone stage because we'd be colossal dippy morons not to :D

 

we also need to be able to craft some of these thing, not just find factory-made ones.  Especially shotguns for instance, because as I've explained they're very easy to make.

Just two pieces of pipe and a nail.  Takes just a few hours worth of work too.  Even less if you have seamless pipe; 90% of the labor is just grinding the seam out of the pipes, so if you can find seamless pipe it's more like 20 minutes of labor.

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It's not like suppressors don't make a difference, otherwise they wouldn't have as huge of a market as they do in the world of firearms.

 

You guys are finding that they are bad because you are reading articles that are trying to debunk the hollywood interpretation (which is definitely full of bologna), and not actually state what the suppressor actually does and how it does it.

 

One must take into account that a suppressor also lowers the pitch (wrong word, I think) of the sound significantly. If you were standing outside a house, and somebody was firing from inside the house, what you would hear would resemble a prominent "thud" clicking noise and not something that sounds like a standard gunshot. You'd definitely hear the noise, it just wouldn't sound like or be as distinctive as a natural gunshot. The whole point of a suppressor is to make the gunshot not distinctive, and it does it's job in that sense.

 

For comparison: (fired with and without suppressor in both videos)

 

 

 

My point is, you will still hear a sound, it just won't be as distinctive, and if you have the right one for the right gun, it will do it's job.

 

Again, it will still be loud, just not distinctive.

 

Translated to gameplay, the effect would be more or less the same. Zombies from further away would be less likely to be attracted by the shot.

 

Would it be silent? No. Would it attract zombies in the area in the same way hitting a door with a pool cue would? Yes.  Would it make any difference at all? I'd say it would.

Edited by Kim Jong Un

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47 minutes ago, lemmy101 said:

Yeah basically if I'm completely honest - we'll make accessibility of such things balanced to be as real as we can. No promises obv  but if there's a cool thing off of the walking dead thats realistic and plausable we'll likely be looking to give pz players the option at sone stage because we'd be colossal dippy morons not to :D

 

Stuff like this only possible with physics so tho so post vehicles of at all 

 

Of course ^^ and as always, gameplay over realism. I trust you guys to do the best you can think of

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23 minutes ago, Kim Jong Un said:

It's not like suppressors don't make a difference, otherwise they wouldn't have as huge of a market as they do in the world of firearms.

 

You guys are finding that they are bad because you are reading articles that are trying to debunk the hollywood interpretation (which is definitely full of bologna), and not actually state what the suppressor actually does.

 

One must take into account that a suppressor also lowers the pitch of the sound significantly. If you were standing outside a house, and somebody was firing from inside the house, what you would hear would resemble a prominent "thud" clicking noise and not something that sounds like a standard gunshot. You'd definitely hear the noise, it just wouldn't sound like or be as distinctive as a natural gunshot. The whole point of a suppressor is to make the gunshot not distinctive, and it does it's job in that sense.

 

For comparison: (fired with and without suppressor)

 

 

My point is, you will still hear a sound, it just won't be as distinctive, and if you have the right one for the right gun, it will do it's job.

 

Again, it will still be loud, just not distinctive.

 

*massages temples*

 

I'm gonna try to be nice here, which as you could see if you'd taken the time to look through older threads about this- I have a bit of a weak spot for. But bear with me, because as I've said I've heard this argument a thousand times. Not all of this is for Kim, mostly just the thread in general.

 

Suppressors don't have a "huge" market in the world of firearms. If you'd taken a moment to read previous threads you can find I link the exact details of this in a scholarly article. Suppressors (even the asinine, useless, home made ones) legally have to be registered with the US government with a tax stamp. Now obviously there are some that exist outside the law, but we can generally assume a majority are legal. Regardless of what stupid hollywood tells you, criminals actually very rarely use suppressors. Mainly because they aren't particularly useful. I'm not going to go look up the numbers again- you can do it if you want- but consider this point debunked. I even checked the population of the game area against the number registered in Kentucky itself and found the likelihood of finding a suppressor there- essentially zero (ratio of suppressors to people [assuming people owning one only have one, which is usually untrue] found less people in the game area than chance to find one). Consider this idea debunked. The market is growing now, but especially in early 1990's it wasn't and wasn't legal in as many states, either.

 

The articles I found- and put a lot of work into finding- was a legitimate scholarly article with citations and proper equipment stating what suppressors and subsonic ammo had an impact on. It had nothing to do with debunking anything. It's just useful for that when people who have no idea what they're talking about bring up "silencers" on the internet.

 

As I've mentioned before, YT videos (and videos in general) are fairly useless for this kind of comparison due to how sound is recorded. Look it up.

 

And further, zombies don't give a crap whether a sound is distinctive or not. They chase all of the sounds we have in the game. It still has the same location, which is what matters, and I've already mentioned before the sound reaches a larger area than the game streams even for best case scenario.

 

 

I realize being told your idea isn't great may raise some people's hackles a bit and make you want to argue about it. Just read the old threads, please, going over this over and over is pretty tiring. I spent a lot of time objectively proving all of these myths about suppressors false. Let it die.

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I'm sorry I didn't have the time to go back to an old thread and find your posts, Rathlord.

 

And there is definitely a prominent market for suppressors. A lot of companies make them, and a lot of gun fanatics buy them. 

 

And I know criminals rarely use suppressors. That's hollywood bologna (I'm not sure if you read my post fully enough to see that I called it the same thing there too).

 

My whole post was arguing that suppressors do have an effect, just not the one hollywood portrays it as.  Other than that, I'm not sure what I presented in my post that was wrong.

 

Can you hear a difference in the video or not? I understand that sound sounds different when recorded through a microphone, but there is still an evident change in how it sounds suppressed vs. non suppressed. I'm defending suppressors, not arguing them to be something attainable ingame... 

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5 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

I'm defending suppressors, not arguing them to be something attainable ingame... 

 

Then why are you talking about them at all. That's just a complete waste of time in a suggestions thread. If you just want to banter about suppressors, take it to General Discussion. And again, especially in 1990's, there was not a huge market for them. The numbers are out there. The market's definitely growing now but that's not relevant to this discussion.

 

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1 minute ago, Rathlord said:

 

Then why are you talking about them at all. That's just a complete waste of time on the "Suggestions" forum. If you just want to banter about suppressors, take it to General Discussion. And again, especially in 1990's, there was not a huge market for them. The numbers are out there. The market's definitely growing now but that's not relevant to this discussion.

 

Hence why I never said "for the 90s" once in my post. I'm defending suppressors because they don't "suck", not because they wouldn't have a place ingame. You are right not to include them for anything non-military spec-ops, but the reason for it wouldn't be "suppressors don't do much".

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1 minute ago, Kim Jong Un said:

Can you hear a difference in the video or not? I understand that sound sounds different when recorded through a microphone, but there is still an evident change in how it sounds suppressed vs. non suppressed. I'm defending suppressors, not arguing them to be something attainable ingame... 


Can't be bothered to look up details but sound recording hardware cuts off at certain wavelength. Unless you've got some serious sound recording hardware it's not even possible to record a gunshot as it really sounds (Because, you know, a gunshot is so loud that it can damage your ears, being able to record such sounds and play them through headphones in the age of internet would make a lot of people deaf).

People who think that a small explosion and a sonic boom can be easily suppressed never woke up their roommate by opening a can of beer under a shitton of cloth trying to suppress it.

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Silencers outright don't fit the timeframe of the game . . . In 2000 there was a cumulative total of 60,000 registered in the United States. Over the past 15 years that's jumped to almost a million.

Even if this isn't a cumulative account (https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=1396) we can reasonably assume silencers were very rare in the 90s

See all the other threads for similar back and forth.

I also doubt zombies care about the distinctive quality of a sound. So long as it's loud enough to give them direction, they'll go towards it. A better argument would be to suggest the sound isn't perceptible for as long a period of time (lower power, lower frequency), making it more difficult to pinpoint the direction from which the sound originated . . . but even then, they'd still hear it for miles.

 Silencers also  do not mask the sound of the action of the gun; likewise using subsonic rounds does not reduce this.


They're good for hearing protection and tend to be used for that purpose in reality, but seem like a gimmick in the game's setting . . .and I don't think many people would understand that, if it were implemented differently from their Hollywood-derived notion that silencers "silence" things.

I'd be fine with them in the game if they were legitimately ineffective -- particularly the coveted "handmade" ones, I guess. But I worry there'd be too much pressure to make them over powered thanks to people complaining.

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Just now, EnigmaGrey said:

Silencers outright don't fit the timeframe of the game . . . In 2000 there was a cumulative total of 60,000 registered in the United States. Over the past 15 years that's jumped to almost a million.

Even if this isn't a cummulative account (https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=1396) we can reasonably assume silencers were very rare in the 90s

 

See all the other threads for similar back and forth.

 

Yes, I've stated that it's not for the game in my argument, I think you guys assume that's what I'm getting at. I'm defending suppressors, not if they had a place in Kentucky civilian's hands in the 90s.

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11 minutes ago, Kim Jong Un said:

Hence why I never said "for the 90s" once in my post. I'm defending suppressors because they don't "suck", not because they wouldn't have a place ingame. You are right not to include them for anything non-military spec-ops, but the reason for it wouldn't be "suppressors don't do much".

 

Hence you're just wasting our time. This is a discussion about game features. If you want to take this cop-out, take it elsewhere. And you're still objectively wrong, suppressors do "suck" for most applications. They can't even get the sound into the safe hearing zone generally speaking. And they don't do much, as objectively proven by freaking science. If you're just going to jam your fingers in your ears and yell "nuh-uh" to actual facts, stop posting. Their best application (for civvies, of course)? For hunters to lower noise pollution with "sharp" sounds. It's still loud but less sharp sounds are less likely to waken or disturb people. Yes, they have a use. No, it's not relevant to this freaking conversation, which is now apparently about suppressors in PZ. If you're not talking about that, stop posting in the suggestions forum about it.

 

Have some sources:

http://www.silencerresearch.com/subsonic_22_ammunition.htm

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/11/gun-silencers-dont-make-them-anywhere-near-silent/

http://guns.connect.fi/rs/suppress.html

 

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