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Gun Ownership in America


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9 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

snip

If you'd read my other posts on this topic you'd realise that I would like more types of guns, and I would like to find guns in other places. I was the one that mentioned the oddness at not finding hunting rifles in homes, and also the appearance of bullets in places that never seem to have guns.

 

I also stated I wouldn't mind there being machine guns if they were owned by the military and difficult to procure.

 

I'm very aware that gameplay for guns is still up for debate.

 

What I was against was the idea that "the devs would have definitely added more guns if they went to and saw gun culture in Kentucky".

They aren't ignorant, I'm sure they're aware the amount and types of guns in the game do not reflect reality.

 

I believe perhaps this line from me caused confusion "as if having the devs walk about in Kentucky and seeing the amount of guns would make them reconsider"

 

Perhaps 'reconsider' was the wrong word here, I didn't mean that they've already made their minds up, they could still be considering ideas, just that I'm sure they are aware of Kentucky gun culture and seeing it first hand wouldn't do a whole lot.

Sorry about that.

 

Whether they choose to act on this and add more guns is up to them. I'm not against them adding more guns at all. :/

 

Honestly this all a large misunderstanding, and I apologize for my part in it. :-(

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19 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Blows my mind that you think the military will be running around with shotguns and varmint rifles . . . just because TIS doesn't want the world crammed with firearms or for the game to be defined by its firearm selection.

Actually, the reason why I said that was because of something Rath said in this forum about TIS wanting to keep it this way, and there being no need to add anything more, which I thought was an official response to the issue.

 

Probably a misread on my part, but the way it was written implied the answer on more guns was a 'no', which is why I said that.

 

Here is what I was talking about:

Quote

 

On 3/27/2016 at 10:51 AM, Rathlord said:

You're still missing the most important facet of my point, though. You kinda touched on what I said (that guns and killing zombies aren't the focus of the game) but then you went right back to focusing on it. The reality is, we don't need to add more guns, nor do we need to try to further balance them. They're relatively fine as-is and about where they want them. They are there, as an option, they have some uses, and they are relatively rare (as TIS wants them to be). Yah, we could flood the game world with guns and probably eventually find a way to balance it (albeit one that would almost certainly make them less fun to use than they are now, but that's another point). But there is no motivation to do that which I can see. You might think you'd be making the game world more authentic (although that's debatable, and as I've mentioned I disagree), but you could also argue that putting more socks into the game makes it more authentic. Sometimes there's just not a reason to go for literal 1:1 depiction of reality. There are enough guns that if you want to use them, you can find, maintain, and keep stocked on them. That's all there needs to be for PZ to run smoothly. It's not meant to be an arcade shooter.

 

Where in any of my previous posts was I supporting flooding the loot with guns? I'm pretty sure I said there was a few ways to go about this without flooding, but regardless, if I tried to rebuttal that, I would have repeated exactly what I have said in the past four posts of mine, so I'm not going to get into that. I don't think I need to reiterate my point of saying that there is more room to play with here with their current implementation, I would sound like a broken record.

 

As many great people have said in the past, there is always room for improvement, and that is all I am going to say about that.

 

It is really unfortunate that TIS has decided to not add anymore guns, this is truly a missed opportunity and rather an unfortunate thing to hear. I was hoping that for a game centralized in the backwoods town atmosphere, in the 90s, before the post-Y2K changes in gun laws, they would have taken advantage of this to truly capture the hunters, the rednecks and the massive gun culture rather than cut it from the game almost entirely. I'm not sure how this is going to work out when Fort Knox and the military airfield near Muldraugh come into play, since I would consider that a huge motivation to add more guns, but I hope it does work out, because I really like PZ and where it's headed.

 

I appreciate the work that goes into PZ from our hard-working developers and I hope they make the right choice about this matter when the opportunity to do so comes up again :)

 

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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14 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Again, I'm hoping that's very obviously what I suggested in my last three or four posts.

 

For that matter, I don't think anyone has said that the devs only plan on having the current crop of weapons in the final game or that the spawn rates couldn't be adjusted - slightly. There's no intention of going anywhere near Jagged Allliance 2/ORGM's scope however, nor are guns likely to become as plentiful as they -may- be in reality.

You're being ambushed Enigma, run away!   lol

 

This thread is gonna turn into another "NPCs"  


The first rule of Zomboid.. Don't talk about NPCs....... or guns..

The second rule of Zomboid... 

 

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13 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

Actually, the reason why I said that was because of something Rath said in this forum about TIS wanting to keep it this way, and there being no need to add anything more, which I thought was an official response to the issue.

 

Probably a misread on my part, but the way it was written implied the answer on more guns was a 'no', which is why I said that.

 

Here is what I was talking about:

 

 

Read again. I'm referring to the current state of the game. If military stuff does get added, I'm sure one or two military archetype guns will be added as well. Though, please keep in mind, "military base" does not mean armory, especially ones like Knox which aren't even particularly active. Most military on-base don't carry weapons at all, and those who do (usually MP's) are carrying sidearms, not assault rifles. Maybe you're not aware, but a large part of Knox's function today is as a human resources center. Afaik it still stores bullion, but there's still not going to be that many armed people there. People hear 'military base' and think machine guns and mortars. In reality, most of Knox is likely full of office workers.

 

Edit: In fact, sources show well over half of the personnel are part of the HR center there.

Edit: Further source checking reveals:

 

1) Provisioning unit

1) Engineer unit

1) Cavalry training unit

1) Infantry training unit

2) Bands

1) Medical unit

1) Training command unit

1) Recruiting unit

 

No active infantry units at all, and only the engineer battalion and the sustainment command are combat units as far as I can tell. Some of my phrasing may be a bit loopy as I'm in a hurry.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Rathlord said:

 

Read again. I'm referring to the current state of the game. If military stuff does get added, I'm sure one or two military archetype guns will be added as well. Though, please keep in mind, "military base" does not mean armory, especially ones like Knox which aren't even particularly active. Most military on-base don't carry weapons at all, and those who do (usually MP's) are carrying sidearms, not assault rifles. Maybe you're not aware, but a large part of Knox's function today is as a human resources center. Afaik it still stores bullion, but there's still not going to be that many armed people there. People hear 'military base' and think machine guns and mortars. In reality, most of Knox is likely full of office workers.

 

Edit: In fact, sources show well over half of the personnel are part of the HR center there.

Edit: Further source checking reveals:

 

1) Provisioning unit

1) Engineer unit

1) Cavalry training unit

1) Infantry training unit

2) Bands

1) Medical unit

1) Training command unit

1) Recruiting unit

 

No active infantry units at all, and only the engineer battalion and the sustainment command are combat units as far as I can tell. Some of my phrasing may be a bit loopy as I'm in a hurry.

 

 

Semi-automatic weapons are not military.  Civilians own millions of semi-automatic rifles in the US.

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15 hours ago, Millitron said:

Semi-automatic weapons are not military.  Civilians own millions of semi-automatic rifles in the US.

Dunno where this selective reading issue is coming from, but it's not making your point. Nowhere did I say military were the only source of semiauto weaponry. I'm specifically referring to the "Fort Knox is happening therefor TIS needs more guns" argument. Please stop with the shifting goalposts, it's annoying and it's not helping your case. 

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On 3/30/2016 at 1:23 PM, Rathlord said:

 

Read again. I'm referring to the current state of the game. If military stuff does get added, I'm sure one or two military archetype guns will be added as well. Though, please keep in mind, "military base" does not mean armory, especially ones like Knox which aren't even particularly active. Most military on-base don't carry weapons at all, and those who do (usually MP's) are carrying sidearms, not assault rifles. Maybe you're not aware, but a large part of Knox's function today is as a human resources center. Afaik it still stores bullion, but there's still not going to be that many armed people there. People hear 'military base' and think machine guns and mortars. In reality, most of Knox is likely full of office workers.

 

Edit: In fact, sources show well over half of the personnel are part of the HR center there.

Edit: Further source checking reveals:

 

1) Provisioning unit

1) Engineer unit

1) Cavalry training unit

1) Infantry training unit

2) Bands

1) Medical unit

1) Training command unit

1) Recruiting unit

 

No active infantry units at all, and only the engineer battalion and the sustainment command are combat units as far as I can tell. Some of my phrasing may be a bit loopy as I'm in a hurry.

 

 

I'm not arguing or anything, just adding information. I use to visit the base every weekend to drink with some of my buddies. There are some military there. One unit in particular that is probably already in the game is the 8-229th Attack Reconnaissance Battalion. They flew Apaches and were activated on the base in 1989.  This might be a reason why a helicopter hovers over you but doesn't land. You of course can't board an Apache. Its a gunship, not a troop carrier. 

 

As for people with weapons on site, there is the F/3 Small Arms Readiness Group. They help train soldiers how to shoot and make sure no one loses their edge. You are right, those engineers are combat engineers. They receive specialized training for combat deployment, basically like a medic, fulfilling a hybrid purpose. There is also the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division. They have some Infantry regiments known as the Ramrods and Blue Spaders were active around that time. And the training unit will be armed. 

 

*Edit - After rereading through, That infantry division I don't believe was on site in 93. Its hard to remember back that far. I didn't start visiting the base until about 2004, there were soldiers there that had gotten back from the desert and some that were getting ready to head out that way. I don't even remember what unit they were in. Most of my time there was spent drinking "Jungle Juice" until I couldn't even see straight and trying unsuccessfully to hook up. Hard to impress girls when there are fine military men around, they really love a man in uniform, especially in those days. 

 

It''s funny though, those unfinished roads on the map, that's where I use to hang out at if I remember correctly, they were like dualplexes there. Really nice places. 

Edited by Slice985
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Yes, increasing the spawn rate of the current crop of guns and ammo would give you too much because there are only FOUR ammo types and a handful of weapons... but if they added more weapons, and more importantly, more ammo types that problem would just plain go away: You'd have to find USABLE ammo for weapons you actually OWN.

Weapons and ammo that I think would fit the gameworld and era:

PISTOLS
9mm pistol(current is fine)
.45 govt model - 7+1rnd
.40 police pistol - 13+1rnd
.22 target pistol - 10+1rnd
.380 pocket pistol - 7+1rnd
.38 pocket revolver - 5rnd
.357 revolver(should be able to use .38 as well, to be realistic) - 6rnd

SHOTGUNS
12 gauge pump(current is fine, make it more rare than the 20ga & .410)
20 gauge field - 4+1rnd
.410 youth - 4+1rnd

RIFLES
Varmit Rifle - change to semi auto, .223/5.56, 10+1rnd
Sporter Rifle/Carbine (semi-auto) - .223/5.56, 30+1rnd (rare)
Assault Rifle/Carbine (full auto) - .223/5.56, 30+1rnd (ultra rare)
Youth/Target Rifle (semi-auto) - .22, 10+1rnd
Bolt-Action Rifle A - .308, 4+1rnd
Bolt-Action Rifle B - .30-06, 4+1rnd
Lever Action Rifle A - .30-30, 6+1
Lever Action Rifle B  - .357 magnum, 9+1rnd
Lever Action Rifle C - .22, 19+1(may seem op but .22 lever actions are awkward/time consuming to reload)

This would increase the variety and more or less reflect the real world circa 1993 without going full call of duty throwing in exotic crap and tons of military gear. Remember: more ammo types and weapons=harder to find exactly what you need.

 

On 03/29/2016 at 4:38 PM, EnigmaGrey said:

And you can have them. Just use your imagination. Pistol, shotgun,  several types of rifles, and other projectile weaponry covers your  bases nicely, without getting lost in the details.

 


Should we reduce the massive numbers of foods, furniture and craftables and use our imagination as well? We have to track our calories now in the base game for gods sake. This games depth is clearly one of its strong points and the firearms have little to no depth. Poor argument.

Edited by zomboid123
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18 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

Should we reduce the massive numbers of foods, furniture and craftables and use our imagination as well? We have to track our calories now in the base game for gods sake. This games depth is clearly one of its strong points and the firearms have little to no depth. Poor argument.


Game focus = Survival

Game focus Zombie Killing

 

If you wanna argue, fine, but don't be an arse about it, especially when you're making apples to oranges comparisons.

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20 minutes ago, Rathlord said:


Game focus = Survival

Game focus Zombie Killing

 

If you wanna argue, fine, but don't be an arse about it, especially when you're making apples to oranges comparisons.

 


Killing zombies is part of surviving. I don't think fishing, baking pies and cakes or lighting up my zombie shelter in pink is a necessary part of a zombie zurvival game, but it's what makes zomboid great: The depth... and the depth of the firearms is a 1/2 foot kiddie pool compared to the rest of the game and I think you guys can and should do more with them.

There is variety in every system - you can trap tons of different animals, catch various fish of various sizes, find several dozen berries, herbs and mushrooms, find over a hundred different kinds of food and drink, cook dozens of recipes, farm close to a dozen crops, build scores of different items, use a dozen different colored lightbulbs, move almost every piece of decoration and furniture in the game, deep nutrition and first aid systems - We have never been asked to use our imagination in the past, why should we for firearms? I'm sorry but "pistol" "shotgun" and "rifle" is not good enough in my opinion. You set the bar higher than that for your game and it would be a shame if it wasn't expanded on.

Edited by zomboid123
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And yet with almost all of our weaponry, stuff is done by category not specific. Only 1 kitchen knife and 1 combat knife, for instance. There will likely be some other gun archetypes added at some point, but making a full spread is just a lot of work for something the devs don't want people focusing on particularly. I'm not saying it can't happen, but personally I don't find it necessary and the devs have seemed to agree in the past. That being said, since there's some interest, perhaps I'll bring it up with them and see how they feel about it still. 

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2 minutes ago, Rathlord said:

And yet with almost all of our weaponry, stuff is done by category not specific. Only 1 kitchen knife and 1 combat knife, for instance. There will likely be some other gun archetypes added at some point, but making a full spread is just a lot of work for something the devs don't want people focusing on particularly. I'm not saying it can't happen, but personally I don't find it necessary and the devs have seemed to agree in the past. That being said, since there's some interest, perhaps I'll bring it up with them and see how they feel about it still. 


That's two knives - if we had two pistols that would be double the depth, you'd have to scrounge and keep track of double the ammo. :P You already took the time to seperate .223 and .308, it's not just "rifle ammo".. keep going! :)

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See ORGM for why "you just need more variety -- it'll fix everything!" falls flat on its face.

 

Ammo calibre was left in after it was initially considered to have a multitude of guns. Discussions like this from gun enthusiasts killed that idea in a hurry. Perhaps the ammo types will be renamed in the future due to people fighting about calibre, as well.

 

We're not interested in the minutiae of firearms. Modders provide that already.

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21 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

See ORGM for why "you just need more variety -- it'll fix everything!" falls flat on its face.


I already gave my suggestions so I'm not going to rehash it, and I stand by my statement that increasing the variety of ammunition and weapons will actually make it HARDER to stockpile - saying that it will "go too far" is a strawman.
Increasing variety != ORGM, JA2, COD or whatever out there example anyone wants to use.

 

 

23 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

We're not interested in the minutiae of firearms. Modders provide that already.


They provide it poorly by 1. going overboard, and 2. adding anachronistic and exotic weaponry. Believe me if there were a weapon mod that didn't add 200 weapons including desert eagles and steyer augs and tons of tacticool weapons that didn't even exist in 1993 I'd be all over it. That just isn't the case, because modders tend to go overboard... but I bet the devs could do it right. And no having "pistol" "rifle" "shotgun" isn't doing it right any more than having just "fish" or "meat" would be. No, the devs put more minutae into PZ than that, which is why I'm pretty sure "we" are interested in the minutae of firearms, at least more than having "pistol" and "pistol ammo"... that's action-arcade game level of depth...

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Saying that the system would bloat into jagged alliance if they even do a content pass on it is a straw man. I have more faith in the dev team than that. It doesn't matter how crazy suggestions get, the decisions they make are what matters.

What do you means by "rolls", spawn rolls? If so, that's my point; where you would normaly find "pistol ammo" in every other home you would now have a chance to find several different kinds of ammo which you may or may not have a weapon to load it in to. If done right it should make it more difficult, not easier. I find the game easy as is, I wouldn't suggest something that I think would make it easier.

Edited by zomboid123
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2 hours ago, Rathlord said:

And yet with almost all of our weaponry, stuff is done by category not specific. Only 1 kitchen knife and 1 combat knife, for instance. There will likely be some other gun archetypes added at some point, but making a full spread is just a lot of work for something the devs don't want people focusing on particularly. I'm not saying it can't happen, but personally I don't find it necessary and the devs have seemed to agree in the past. That being said, since there's some interest, perhaps I'll bring it up with them and see how they feel about it still. 

 

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4 hours ago, zomboid123 said:

Yes, increasing the spawn rate of the current crop of guns and ammo would give you too much because there are only FOUR ammo types and a handful of weapons... but if they added more weapons, and more importantly, more ammo types that problem would just plain go away: You'd have to find USABLE ammo for weapons you actually OWN.

Weapons and ammo that I think would fit the gameworld and era:

PISTOLS
9mm pistol(current is fine)
.45 govt model - 7+1rnd
.40 police pistol - 13+1rnd
.22 target pistol - 10+1rnd
.380 pocket pistol - 7+1rnd
.38 pocket revolver - 5rnd
.357 revolver(should be able to use .38 as well, to be realistic) - 6rnd

SHOTGUNS
12 gauge pump(current is fine, make it more rare than the 20ga & .410)
20 gauge field - 4+1rnd
.410 youth - 4+1rnd

RIFLES
Varmit Rifle - change to semi auto, .223/5.56, 10+1rnd
Sporter Rifle/Carbine (semi-auto) - .223/5.56, 30+1rnd (rare)
Assault Rifle/Carbine (full auto) - .223/5.56, 30+1rnd (ultra rare)
Youth/Target Rifle (semi-auto) - .22, 10+1rnd
Bolt-Action Rifle A - .308, 4+1rnd
Bolt-Action Rifle B - .30-06, 4+1rnd
Lever Action Rifle A - .30-30, 6+1
Lever Action Rifle B  - .357 magnum, 9+1rnd
Lever Action Rifle C - .22, 19+1(may seem op but .22 lever actions are awkward/time consuming to reload)

This would increase the variety and more or less reflect the real world circa 1993 without going full call of duty throwing in exotic crap and tons of military gear. Remember: more ammo types and weapons=harder to find exactly what you need.

 

 


Should we reduce the massive numbers of foods, furniture and craftables and use our imagination as well? We have to track our calories now in the base game for gods sake. This games depth is clearly one of its strong points and the firearms have little to no depth. Poor argument.

 

I'm just thinking about how we have 6 varieties of walkie talkies, 3 varieties of radios and 3 varieties of HAM radios... I'm sure that if they can get variety while all serving the same purpose (and each category does the exact same thing), maybe down the line firearms could get the same treatment, since guns arguably have the same presence in player's lives for survival... and there is only 4 of them. The focus on the game isn't listening to the radio either, or communicating with other survivors on multiplayer.

 

It's easy to see why it's not a priority for them to want to make a larger variety of guns... but I also can't think of how it would hurt for doing so.

 

Just my opinion on the whole "variety, sure, but how many will spawn?" topic, I'm really fine if the rate they spawn is kept the same, but for very evident reasons they should have an evidently low chance to spawn outside of gunshops and in homes (as well as the green gun locker in the hunting lodge and sheds! They certainly don't hold clothes like they currently do!)

 

Spoiler

Universal-Weapon-Racks.jpg

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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