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 You're right, Kim. Let's add a dozen or two guns and ammo types because the game isn't just about radios.

 You guys sure swayed me. No longer a strawman when you guys breathe life into it.

 

And there'll certainly be no jonesing by other members of the forum on the particular behavior of individual calibers or how certain calibers are really misrepresented and . . . hey . . . where's my favorite gun from the 90s?

 

If we had two dozen guns and two dozen types of ammo, but the spawnrate was kept the same, you'd rarely ever find the ammo for a corresponding gun. Thus, the spawning system either needs to be altered with a point system to spawn like-with-like or (and probably both) spawn rates of individual gun-related items need to spawn. Otherwise, you're likely to end up with a player that has 6 different guns and a dozen different types of rounds, but none of them for any of the guns they've collected.

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12 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

 You're right, Kim. Let's add a dozen or two guns and ammo types because the game isn't just about radios.

 You guys sure swayed me. No longer a strawman when you guys breathe life into it.

 

And there'll certainly be no jonesing by other members of the forum on the particular behavior of individual calibers or how certain calibers are really misrepresented and . . . hey . . . where's my favorite gun from the 90s?

 

:?

 

Take it easy with the passive-aggressiveness, pal. I'm entitled to my opinion too. All I said was that if since they expanded the variety of radios, maybe guns can get similar treatment down the line when they are ready. I didn't attack your view or generate some kind of 'strawman'.

 

I rather agree with what Rathlord said last page:

3 hours ago, Rathlord said:

And yet with almost all of our weaponry, stuff is done by category not specific. Only 1 kitchen knife and 1 combat knife, for instance. There will likely be some other gun archetypes added at some point, but making a full spread is just a lot of work for something the devs don't want people focusing on particularly. I'm not saying it can't happen, but personally I don't find it necessary and the devs have seemed to agree in the past. That being said, since there's some interest, perhaps I'll bring it up with them and see how they feel about it still. 

 

Edit:

Responding to this just-added section of post:

Quote

 

If we had two dozen guns and two dozen types of ammo, but the spawnrate was kept the same, you'd rarely ever find the ammo for a corresponding gun. Thus, the spawning system either needs to be altered with a point system to spawn like-with-like or (and probably both) spawn rates of individual gun-related items need to spawn. Otherwise, you're likely to end up with a player that has 6 different guns and a dozen different types of rounds, but none of them for any of the guns they've collected.

 

 

That adds depth, and similar games (i.e. State of Decay) have that exact same thing going on. As a matter of fact, it would make players more likely to conserve their ammo. That doesn't actually seem like a bad thing (although I hardly think the devs would add two dozen types of ammo for two dozen guns... the ratio has never been like that when ammo types were added to the field.)

 

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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Go back and page and read the other replies. The strawman remark was specifically for Zombie123, though since you're advancing a similar position it seems applicable to you, as well. 

 

More archetypes doesn't mean dozens of guns. You'll notice that the post you agreed with included specific examples to this effect. 

 

 

Similar games tend to be defined by their gunplay, something I'd rather not see happen to PZ outside of mods.

 

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15 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

 You're right, Kim. Let's add a dozen or two guns and ammo types because the game isn't just about radios.

 You guys sure swayed me. No longer a strawman when you guys breathe life into it.

 

And there'll certainly be no jonesing by other members of the forum on the particular behavior of individual calibers or how certain calibers are really misrepresented and . . . hey . . . where's my favorite gun from the 90s?

 

If we had two dozen guns and two dozen types of ammo, but the spawnrate was kept the same, you'd rarely ever find the ammo for a corresponding gun. Thus, the spawning system either needs to be altered with a point system to spawn like-with-like or (and probably both) spawn rates of individual gun-related items need to spawn. Otherwise, you're likely to end up with a player that has 6 different guns and a dozen different types of rounds, but none of them for any of the guns they've collected.

No really.  Why do we have SIX IDENTICAL walkie talkies, 3 AM/FM radios, and 3 HAM radios that don't really get used AT ALL in singleplayer, when we only have 4 guns?

Guns are much more meaningful in a survival situation than radios.  I can't think of a single time in-game when I thought "boy if only I had a HAM radio".  But there've been plenty of occasions where I needed a gun.

You already have the problem of mismatched calibers.  Why is there rifle ammo in the police stations, when they don't have any rifles?  Why do you sometimes find bodies with ammo but no gun, or the wrong gun?

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13 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Go back and page and read the other replies. The strawman remark was specifically for Zombie123, though since you're advancing a similar position it seems applicable to you, as well. 

 

More archetypes doesn't mean dozens of guns. You'll notice that the post you agreed with included specific examples to this effect. 

 

 

Similar games tend to be defined by their gunplay, something I'd rather not see happen to PZ outside of mods.

 

But the "dozens of guns" thing is either something you are assuming I said, or you are confusing me with something somebody else said. I never suggested we add a "dozen or two" guns. I'm down for adding a gun to represent an archetype, I just don't think the game should settle for 4 of them.

 

It's also kind of ironic that I had to re-google the definition of strawman to see if something I said in my 2nd-last post was strawmanning you, but I realized that post wasn't even addressed to you... Having the same opinion (not that I'm even sure I do since his list seems like a lot of similar guns) doesn't mean it's a strawman argument. Your use of "you guys" rather than zombie123 would lead me to believe you were referring to me, since you adressed me the line up and didn't quote anyone's specific post, so I apologize if I misread ((?) because apparently the strawman accusation is applicable to me as well). I think I'm confused.

 

Millitron also brings up a good point, the Police Stations don't even spawn rifles yet is the 2nd-largest source for the ammo for them.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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10 minutes ago, Millitron said:

No really.  Why do we have SIX IDENTICAL walkie talkies, 3 AM/FM radios, and 3 HAM radios that don't really get used AT ALL in singleplayer, when we only have 4 guns?

Guns are much more meaningful in a survival situation than radios.  I can't think of a single time in-game when I thought "boy if only I had a HAM radio".  But there've been plenty of occasions where I needed a gun.

You already have the problem of mismatched calibers.  Why is there rifle ammo in the police stations, when they don't have any rifles?  Why do you sometimes find bodies with ammo but no gun, or the wrong gun?

 

The radios will be more relevant in singleplayer when NPC's are added. Much more relevant. And it's still an apples to oranges argument. You simply can't just point at one thing and say "we have lots of this why not lots of that?" That argument doesn't hold any weight in any game ever, anywhere. Different things are different.

 

Now, as to your last paragraph. Spawns can be tweaked, that's not really 100% relevant to the conversation we're having now. Bodies with no ammo? They fired all their ammo before being swarmed. Simply explained.

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For fairness sake, I would also like to point out that guns will also be just as relevant, if not more relevant, when NPCs are added...

 

The comparison between depth in features is valid simply because both of them are very prominent in the game, and the one that serves more for an immediate use (and might as well keep that status even when radioing NPCs comes into play) is heavily lacking compared to the latter. Can you truly say that the majority of people who are just picking up the game will look at a ValuTech Radio and batteries, and a Pistol and ammo, and take the radio instead every time?

 

The argument has weight because it shows that the capability for depth is there without basing the game around the sole aspect.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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17 minutes ago, Rathlord said:

 

The radios will be more relevant in singleplayer when NPC's are added. Much more relevant. And it's still an apples to oranges argument. You simply can't just point at one thing and say "we have lots of this why not lots of that?" That argument doesn't hold any weight in any game ever, anywhere. Different things are different.

 

Now, as to your last paragraph. Spawns can be tweaked, that's not really 100% relevant to the conversation we're having now. Bodies with no ammo? They fired all their ammo before being swarmed. Simply explained.

It's not "bodies with no ammo", it's "bodies with ammo but no gun".  That was an example about how we already have mismatched ammo.  It would not be a new problem if more guns were added.

Even when NPC's are added, why do we need multiple kinds of walkie talkies?  We only have one kind of pistol, why not one kind of walkie talkie?

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3 minutes ago, Millitron said:

It's not "bodies with no ammo", it's "bodies with ammo but no gun".  That was an example about how we already have mismatched ammo.  It would not be a new problem if more guns were added.

Even when NPC's are added, why do we need multiple kinds of walkie talkies?  We only have one kind of pistol, why not one kind of walkie talkie?

So a survivor walking around found some bullets, held onto them, and died. Such a shame.

 

Because different walkie talkies provide different capabilities. Same with different kinds of guns already present within the game.

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10 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

So a survivor walking around found some bullets, held onto them, and died. Such a shame.

 

Because different walkie talkies provide different capabilities. Same with different kinds of guns already present within the game.

 

All 3 HAM radios do the same thing, the 6 Walkies do the same thing, the 3 Radios do the same thing, just effective up to different ranges/frequencies (which the stats of which are the exact same for some of the interchangeable radios). It's a lot less varied than a gun firing spread with shells that's compatible with different attatchments VS. a rifle with 5+1 capacity using .308 that can hit at higher ranges, is barely usable at beginner level and compatible with different attachments. Keeping in mind that guns are also found at different conditions.

 

The difference between the Valutech Radio and Premium Tech Radio is purely visual, for example. And the difference between the Valutech walkie and Premium walkie is just 500 units of distance. Point being, they all serve the same purpose through the exact same method, while that isn't the case with the different firearms.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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You're right, of course, Kim: all clothes can be worn, all guns can be fired, all seeds can be planted, all melee weapons do melee damage.

 

We really only need one of every object. After all, they're basically the same, right? No wait, that's the perfect excuse to have a wide variety of firearms.

 

Reducing this argument to absurdity . . . See Rathlord's reply for more.

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51 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

You're right, of course, Kim: all clothes can be worn, all guns can be fired, all seeds can be planted, all melee weapons do melee damage.

 

We really only need one of every object. After all, they're basically the same, right? No wait, that's the perfect excuse to have a wide variety of firearms.

 

Reducing this argument to absurdity . . . See Rathlord's reply for more.

If you're against needless variety, why are the Valutech and the Premium AM/FM radio different items?  They aren't just basically the same, they are IDENTICAL.

If you're against needless variety, why are there so many "nick-nack" items that do absolutely nothing?  Black AND white chess pieces, dolls, stuffed animals, CD's, multiple kinds of jewelry, wallets, credit cards and a lot more.  According to the wiki, there's 70 of these items.  Even more if you count each sprite separately; there's 4 kinds of wallets  I know I'd definitely rather the game had a semi-automatic rifle instead of Rubik's Cubes.  I know I'd rather the game had revolvers instead of knitting needles.

The obvious answer is "These items add to the credibility of the world."  Well so do multiple kinds of guns.  A lack of semi-automatic rifles is way more jarring and immersion-breaking for a zombie survival game set in Kentucky than a lack of Rubik's Cubes would be.

Edited by Millitron
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we don't NEED more guns in this game. it has never been about having enough ammo to go out and kill everything.

why try to turn this into yet another shoot em up game with 20+ different types of firearm? we have more than enough of those out there to choose from already. this topic comes up over and over, and what it all boils down to is what the DEVS want in the game THEY are making.

 

only the stuff THEY want in the base game will get in, the stuff THEY feel fits in with the lore they follow. and making long wordy posts, arguing with Rath and Enigma, is just pointless.

 

if you feel the need to have more guns, check out the available mods, or make one of your own that has the stuff YOU want.

 

believe it or not, a lot of people see absolutely no need to have more guns than we currently have. many choose not to use a gun at all.

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30 minutes ago, syfy said:

we don't NEED more guns in this game. it has never been about having enough ammo to go out and kill everything.

why try to turn this into yet another shoot em up game with 20+ different types of firearm? we have more than enough of those out there to choose from already. this topic comes up over and over, and what it all boils down to is what the DEVS want in the game THEY are making.

 

only the stuff THEY want in the base game will get in, the stuff THEY feel fits in with the lore they follow. and making long wordy posts, arguing with Rath and Enigma, is just pointless.

 

if you feel the need to have more guns, check out the available mods, or make one of your own that has the stuff YOU want.

 

believe it or not, a lot of people see absolutely no need to have more guns than we currently have. many choose not to use a gun at all.

We've been over this.  The game would not be any more about killing everything, or any less about day-to-day survival if it had a more realistic variety of guns.  They'd still be very loud, and so would draw in zombies from all around.  They wouldn't make you any less likely to starve to death, or get unlucky and get scratched and infected.  Have you ever been able to just take a shotgun and all the ammo you can carry to the mall and kill all the zombies there?  No?  Then why would that be any more likely if they added a few kinds of guns?

I'm not saying we need something like Jagged Alliance, with hundreds of kinds of guns.  I'm saying we are missing major archetypes of guns.  No semi-auto long guns.  No revolvers.  No full-autos.  You know, we even have all the ingredients in-game already to make slamfire shotguns.  All they are is two pieces of pipe and a nail.  They're totally something survivors would make, and they'd fit right in with the crafting of the game.

 

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6 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Reducing this argument to absurdity . . . See Rathlord's reply for more.

Thanks for that, nice to know that I am wrong just because you say I am. There was zero need to be that demeaning and rude.

 

 

I am done here. Go ahead, passive-aggressively mock me all you want.

Edited by Rathlord
Removed rude image link
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I don't see what it would hurt to have say....for example, 5 different rifles and 5 different pistols of various calibers in the game. The firearms in the game right now feel too generic and neglected in terms of realism. I'd rather be firing a 9mm (not a pistol) or i'd rather be firing a 12 Gauge (not a shotgun) - So IMO the devil is in the details on this whole subject. Un-generic them and give them authentic caliber names. I think that in itself would suffice and soothe the gun wanters. 

 

Same thing can be said for the Varmint Rifle and Hunting Rifle. Give them authentic caliber names. 

 

This is what I mean by firearms in this game feeling too generic and neglected. They feel like placeholders.

Edited by Kelefane
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6 hours ago, Millitron said:

If you're against needless variety, why are the Valutech and the Premium AM/FM radio different items?  They aren't just basically the same, they are IDENTICAL.

If you're against needless variety, why are there so many "nick-nack" items that do absolutely nothing?  Black AND white chess pieces, dolls, stuffed animals, CD's, multiple kinds of jewelry, wallets, credit cards and a lot more.  According to the wiki, there's 70 of these items.  Even more if you count each sprite separately; there's 4 kinds of wallets  I know I'd definitely rather the game had a semi-automatic rifle instead of Rubik's Cubes.  I know I'd rather the game had revolvers instead of knitting needles.

The obvious answer is "These items add to the credibility of the world."  Well so do multiple kinds of guns.  A lack of semi-automatic rifles is way more jarring and immersion-breaking for a zombie survival game set in Kentucky than a lack of Rubik's Cubes would be.

 

Wanna know what it takes to put a different wallet in the game? A few seconds of recoloring for the artist. Want to know what goes into adding a new gun into the game? Considerable time for the artist (completely new asset), considerable (extremely valuable and hard-to-come-by) time from the animator, considerable actual dev time balancing out the different stats for the weapons and making sure having multiples actually feels different enough to feel worth while (sinking 30 seconds for a recolored wallet is not terrible; sinking 30 man-hours into a new pistol that feels barely any different than the other one? that's a massive waste of time). The weapons balancing has been pretty rough even with the four we have. It's had multiple iterations and I personally spent hours and hours of my own time consulting with the devs trying to get something that both felt reasonable and didn't betray the nature of the game.

 

What this all slams home- not trying to pick on you Millitron, just an example- is how massive an apples to oranges comparison all of these so-called examples are. It proves the point that sometimes the gamers just don't understand how much goes into some things and how valuable dev time is. You may think you understand, but unless you've actually been in our shoes- take my word for it- you don't. And while it's perfectly fine to leave feedback and suggestions here, sometimes you may just have to trust that the devs know what's best for their game. This is their job, and they're demonstrably good at it. You might not agree with them, but you also don't have all the details. I do my best to try to clarify this stuff on here- which, trust me, it gets frustrating for us having been doing this for over 3 years and rehashing the same damn arguments over and over. I apologize if we come off a bit terse sometimes. It's just that we've heard everything you've said here every day for years. As I mentioned before, I'll kick around some ideas and see what happens but I certainly wouldn't hold any hopes up. The current system is designed as it is very deliberately. We still appreciate all the feedback.

 

Also, speaking as a moderator not as a participant in this discussion:

Kim, cool your jets. You've been warned before about this. If you have an issue with someone (including a mod), report it or PM me or Nasko or another moderator. I don't care if Jesus is being an asshole to you, the correct answer is not being rude in thread.

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This... Has gotten really out of hand. It doesn't seem like anyone is really adding anything at this point. Just a big circle of arguing where people aren't getting anywhere.

 

In an effort to introduce something new, I'd like to point out that most people seem to overlook the gun modifications ingame. Which, ideally, can function as the variety people are asking for without literally adding more guns to the game. We only have one type of pistol, but you can modify it to have iron sights, a red dot, or a laser. So including the original, that's four variations, and I'm pretty sure you can have multiple mods on at once.

 

I'm sure many players overlook this though, I know I did until I saw that the description on my two pistols were different. I've never been a guns a-blazin' character so I can't speak too much on how they impact play, but they definitely do something.

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2 hours ago, Rathlord said:

Also Kim, he's not calling you or your argument absurd. Reductio ad absurdum (or, reduction to absurdity) is a valid critique of a point- taking something to the extreme to make it seem absurd. It's not mocking, it's a reasonable answer to something you feel isn't logical.

 

Citation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Spoiler

 

No, I wasn't referring to that, that was what I shortened the post to.

 

This is mocking:

 

"You're right, of course, Kim: all clothes can be worn, all guns can be fired, all seeds can be planted, all melee weapons do melee damage."

 

" You're right, Kim. Let's add a dozen or two guns and ammo types because the game isn't just about radios.

 You guys sure swayed me. No longer a strawman when you guys breathe life into it."

 

And I did PM somebody already, but that doesn't remove my right to defend myself while I wait for a reply.

 

You are right, the correct answer isn't being rude in a thread. And before I threw in a picture of a salt shaker, I wasn't the one being rude. I've clearly made an effort to be respectful to everybody's points, expecting the same respect in return is not so much to ask. Trying to reduce my point by representing it as useless, 'captain obvious' statements is not the same level of respect and decency. Put yourself in my shoes and think about how it would sound if I did the same thing to you guys in the argument.

 

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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Quote

 

And I did PM somebody already, but that doesn't remove my right to defend myself while I wait for a reply.

 

You are right, the correct answer isn't being rude in a thread. And before I threw in a picture of a salt shaker, I wasn't the one being rude. I've clearly made an effort to be respectful to everybody's points, expecting the same respect in return is not so much to ask. Trying to reduce my point by representing it as useless, 'captain obvious' statements is not the same level of respect and decency. Put yourself in my shoes and think about how it would sound if I did the same thing to you guys in the argument.

 

 

No, you don't have a right to defend yourself. You have a right to obey the rules of the forum, which you agreed to when you signed up here, or to go elsewhere. All we ask is that you be lovely. You've had multiple warnings in the past and I've brought you back from being banned twice(?) now. You should know better by now. Last warning, take it out of this thread. I don't care what anyone else was doing, that's not how it works. This isn't the wild west, you don't get to shoot back just because someone else was. This forum isn't a free-for-all or a playground. Respect the rules.

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37 minutes ago, Rathlord said:

No, you don't have a right to defend yourself. You have a right to obey the rules of the forum, which you agreed to when you signed up here, or to go elsewhere. All we ask is that you be lovely. You've had multiple warnings in the past and I've brought you back from being banned twice(?) now. You should know better by now. Last warning, take it out of this thread. I don't care what anyone else was doing, that's not how it works. This isn't the wild west, you don't get to shoot back just because someone else was. This forum isn't a free-for-all or a playground. Respect the rules.

Fair enough, I'm just stressed in general so I'm sorry that my remarks were overdefensive and on edge. I should have just left it at my PM. Reading over the last posts, this altercation has been something that could have been avoided entirely.

 

I still genuinely think that when the opportunity arises, playing with new kinds of guns is something that should be explored by the developers.

 

After all, it is still early access, so there will be room to make changes if something breaks their vision for the game. I'm just suggesting reasons why they should try it when it's opportune to do so (since from reading the mondoids, every dev has their own thing going on).

 

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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18 hours ago, Millitron said:

We've been over this.  The game would not be any more about killing everything, or any less about day-to-day survival if it had a more realistic variety of guns.  They'd still be very loud, and so would draw in zombies from all around.  They wouldn't make you any less likely to starve to death, or get unlucky and get scratched and infected.  Have you ever been able to just take a shotgun and all the ammo you can carry to the mall and kill all the zombies there?  No?  Then why would that be any more likely if they added a few kinds of guns?

I'm not saying we need something like Jagged Alliance, with hundreds of kinds of guns.  I'm saying we are missing major archetypes of guns.  No semi-auto long guns.  No revolvers.  No full-autos.  You know, we even have all the ingredients in-game already to make slamfire shotguns.  All they are is two pieces of pipe and a nail.  They're totally something survivors would make, and they'd fit right in with the crafting of the game.

 


Pretty cool video!

Personally, I like playing solo. I'm not much of a multiplayer type of guy. I don't find guns to be particularly useful at all. The zombie drawing effect coupled with the small amount of ammo makes me skip collecting guns and ammo in the post zombie apocalypse world.....BUT I do get tired of killing zombies with a bat/crowbar. I long for a varied zombie killing experience. Enter the silencer!

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Suppressor

That was just the first link I found. There are hundreds of tutorials on how to turn boom-sticks into quiet-sticks, so I think the silencer would fit quiet well into the crafting aspect of the game. Let me preempt someone saying "there is mod for that. mod your game and leave mine alone", I have seen those mods.

The vanilla game should be modified in some way because it isn't balanced when it comes to firearms. Because of the rarity of ammo, the amount of skill need to actually be effective with a gun, and the massive crowd of zombies you get when firing a gun, guns are more of a novelty than a balanced choice when it comes to playing a character. I want guns to be part of the story of how I died, instead of just wistfully thinking they could play a role.

- The ridiculously buff dude from bashing zombie skulls

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Suppressors won't totally fix the whole "gunshots lure every zombie in town" thing.  Guns are still pretty loud even with a suppressor.  You don't get total silence unless you have a really nice suppressor and use subsonic ammunition.

 

Here's a nice chart for a comparison:
http://crimefictionbook.com/2015/04/28/how-loud-is-a-silencer/

So as you can see, a silenced 9mm pistol is louder than things like thunder or police sirens.  A silenced rifle is louder than a jackhammer.

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26 minutes ago, Millitron said:

Suppressors won't totally fix the whole "gunshots lure every zombie in town" thing.  Guns are still pretty loud even with a suppressor.  You don't get total silence unless you have a really nice suppressor and use subsonic ammunition.

 

Here's a nice chart for a comparison:
http://crimefictionbook.com/2015/04/28/how-loud-is-a-silencer/

So as you can see, a silenced 9mm pistol is louder than things like thunder or police sirens.  A silenced rifle is louder than a jackhammer.


Interesting chart. The chart says 140 db is safe. In the interest of hearing preservation awareness, I would like to point out that anything over 140 db is when immediate hearing loss occurs. Sound in the 130-140 db range can be tolerated for less than a second until hearing loss begins. Just throwing that out there. You never get your hearing back once you lose it.

Edited by alpha
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