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Gun Ownership in America


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26 minutes ago, Millitron said:

Side note: How come you often find a gun but no ammo, or ammo but no gun?  I could see it happening sometimes, but it should be rare.  Like, you'll find a pistol in a dresser in some house, but no ammo for it anywhere in the building.  Or visa versa, you find ammo, but no corresponding gun in the building.

For no gun but ammo. Someone was in a hurry, the zombies were coming. They hurriedly grabbed their gun but didn't have enough time to pack the ammo.

 

For gun but no ammo. A looter was searching for valuables in a house. He found a pistol and some ammo in a drawer. He already had a pistol but thought the ammo would come in handy and took it.

Also there are recipes which use bullets by themselves, specifically gathering gunpowder for pipebombs.

 

 

However I will say that it's a little weird to find a gun in a kitchen cupboard, and then the bullets in a drawer elsewhere in the house. I don't own a gun, but wouldn't you keep those together?

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(Going off the posts last page)

 

Yeah, in their current state, guns definitely do not need a nerf. You need at least 3 or 4 aiming skill to have your pistol be something you can actually assault somebody with on Multiplayer (or a zed horde), anything less and you risk missing too many of your shots for you to actually have a tactical edge for bringing a gun to an axe fight.

 

Rifles, on the other hand, I'm sure a few players can back this up: Unless you have beta-blockers, bravery, or bullets to waste, you should not even fire one if you don't have aiming skill.

 

This is a really good way that guns were nerfed, IMO. Before this change, people with no aiming skill were getting headshots left and right at moderate panic.

 

Why was this probably the best way to nerf them? Well, people who invest in the trait have good motivation to.

 

Before, it was "go from a mediocre shot to an amazing shot in 3 ranks, the rest are for the diehard min-max players".

 

Now, it's "Okay, you if you want to learn to aim from scratch, you have to practice. By rank five you can reliably hit what you see under good circumstances, but if you want to the eagle eye of your group, you better be rank 8+ and have reloading skill".

 

I can't think of a reason why that doesn't make sense, although I can understand why somebody who doesn't want to invest in aiming will get frustrated if they can't hit zed with their handgun they just found.

 

The hit-chances and firearm skill system is actually one of the things in the game that I think is good for now, unless something in the gunplay massively changes before release.

 

I would definitely like to see how more kinds of guns would filter into the system, though.

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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12 hours ago, King Kitteh said:

However I will say that it's a little weird to find a gun in a kitchen cupboard, and then the bullets in a drawer elsewhere in the house. I don't own a gun, but wouldn't you keep those together?

 

The actual distribution in the house may be a little odd, but that's not really unusual. Many parts of the US require by law that guns and ammunition be stored separately.

 

 


 

 

To the nice fellow questioning my knowledge on the subject: I was born in South Carolina in a small town and lived there most of my life. I worked on a cattle farm, as a literal cowboy. I built a hunting cabin in the woods with no one but my family helping me. I learned to hunt from my family (and have hunted turkey, deer, wild boar, squirrel, quail, rabbit, beaver, duck, and the occasional unlucky coyote) and I learned to shoot trap from one of the highest ranked shooters in the world at the time. Hopefully that's enough qualifications. I normally don't bring this stuff up because it's not really necessary for the conversation as long as we just assume we're all relatively educated on the subject we're discussing.

 

Regarding your school's little clique of gun owners, I can't really comment on that other than to say I saw local schools with the same kind of attitude, except that if you actually looked in their trucks 90% of them didn't actually have a firearm in there; it was just a "cool" thing. Yes, there is high gun ownership in rural America. But many people still A) Follow the law and B) Are responsible, even the rednecks.

 

 


 

 

Kim, I understand how you think flooding the game world with firearms wouldn't change the balance, but unfortunately it's just not true. There is, ignoring all of the other smaller points that can be made for a moment, the idea of appearances and the fact that the appearance of the game influences how people perceive it. If you throw guns everywhere, either people are going to use them all the time and focus on them (if they're viable), or they're going to use them all the time and get frustrated (because they're not viable) and complain "If you don't want us to use guns, why are there guns everywhere?!?!" We've already seen it happen, so there's not really any denying it. It's not like we haven't tried balancing them before.

 

You're still missing the most important facet of my point, though. You kinda touched on what I said (that guns and killing zombies aren't the focus of the game) but then you went right back to focusing on it. The reality is, we don't need to add more guns, nor do we need to try to further balance them. They're relatively fine as-is and about where they want them. They are there, as an option, they have some uses, and they are relatively rare (as TIS wants them to be). Yah, we could flood the game world with guns and probably eventually find a way to balance it (albeit one that would almost certainly make them less fun to use than they are now, but that's another point). But there is no motivation to do that which I can see. You might think you'd be making the game world more authentic (although that's debatable, and as I've mentioned I disagree), but you could also argue that putting more socks into the game makes it more authentic. Sometimes there's just not a reason to go for literal 1:1 depiction of reality. There are enough guns that if you want to use them, you can find, maintain, and keep stocked on them. That's all there needs to be for PZ to run smoothly. It's not meant to be an arcade shooter.

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18 minutes ago, Rathlord said:

You're still missing the most important facet of my point, though. You kinda touched on what I said (that guns and killing zombies aren't the focus of the game) but then you went right back to focusing on it. The reality is, we don't need to add more guns, nor do we need to try to further balance them. They're relatively fine as-is and about where they want them. They are there, as an option, they have some uses, and they are relatively rare (as TIS wants them to be). Yah, we could flood the game world with guns and probably eventually find a way to balance it (albeit one that would almost certainly make them less fun to use than they are now, but that's another point). But there is no motivation to do that which I can see. You might think you'd be making the game world more authentic (although that's debatable, and as I've mentioned I disagree), but you could also argue that putting more socks into the game makes it more authentic. Sometimes there's just not a reason to go for literal 1:1 depiction of reality. There are enough guns that if you want to use them, you can find, maintain, and keep stocked on them. That's all there needs to be for PZ to run smoothly. It's not meant to be an arcade shooter.

 

Where in any of my previous posts was I supporting flooding the loot with guns? I'm pretty sure I said there was a few ways to go about this without flooding, but regardless, if I tried to rebuttal that, I would have repeated exactly what I have said in the past four posts of mine, so I'm not going to get into that. I don't think I need to reiterate my point of saying that there is more room to play with here with their current implementation, I would sound like a broken record.

 

As many great people have said in the past, there is always room for improvement, and that is all I am going to say about that.

 

It is really unfortunate that TIS has decided to not add anymore guns, this is truly a missed opportunity and rather an unfortunate thing to hear. I was hoping that for a game centralized in the backwoods town atmosphere, in the 90s, before the post-Y2K changes in gun laws, they would have taken advantage of this to truly capture the hunters, the rednecks and the massive gun culture rather than cut it from the game almost entirely. I'm not sure how this is going to work out when Fort Knox and the military airfield near Muldraugh come into play, since I would consider that a huge motivation to add more guns, but I hope it does work out, because I really like PZ and where it's headed.

 

I appreciate the work that goes into PZ from our hard-working developers and I hope they make the right choice about this matter when the opportunity to do so comes up again :)

 

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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2 hours ago, Gaffa Tape Warrior said:

Maybe the reason why the developers have made there be so few guns and bullets is because they are themselves from a country where guns are rare, and have not experienced or imagined the gun culture in the place.

No, it's not that at all. It's for gameplay reasons. Don't kid yourself.

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On 3/26/2016 at 4:24 PM, EnigmaGrey said:

Somehow, I don't think most people will accept guns nerfed even further than current, even if the reason  is so that loot spawns appear more realistic.

Well, the main problem I have is hit detection. Gore only flies off when you kill a zombie. It may be more acceptable for a Nerf if gore always flew off so you felt you were hitting a zombie but didn't kill it. Just firing and nothing is frustrating and provides bad feedback.

 

If the range zombies came running was extended, like i said in another post on a clear day in an open area you can hear a rifle for miles especially if you got rid of the background noise of humanity.

 

And add 50 varied ammo types then you are still nerfing guns without it being as visible.

 

As for aim, a  Nerf to aim but with more hit feedback would camoflague the Nerf as well. You shouldn't be headshotting every time u less you are at aim 10. 

 

I think ammo can be a lot more abundant with those tweaks

 

*Edit - Also shotguns are OP. You can clean out a horde to fast. This needs to be pulled back. Once animations are in this should be easy to fix to allow a shotgun to obliterate a zombie and push back or cripple others, but blowing away 2-3 zombies a shot every time at low aim at medium to long range is just a gimmick, especially when using a mod like the 5.56 rifle and you can waste tons of ammo and not kill anything.

 

On Reboid, I had a 5.56 rifle and 2 containers of ammo at 8 aim. I killed like four zombies a clip. it was pretty terrible, and I was chewing Beta Blockers like skittles. Just sitting there and bang bang bang with no feedback, no reaction. It sucks. You are left wondering.. is this working? is it bugged? 

Edited by Slice985
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4 hours ago, Millitron said:

He's not saying they're anti-gun.  He's saying that because they didn't grow up in a gun-friendly country, they don't get how jarring it is to have so few guns in rural Kentucky.

 

Luckily many of us involved in the project (or just hanging around it, as the case my be) are, so we can happily keep them informed about the culture.

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6 hours ago, Millitron said:

He's not saying they're anti-gun.  He's saying that because they didn't grow up in a gun-friendly country, they don't get how jarring it is to have so few guns in rural Kentucky.

 

I didn't think he was saying the devs are anti-gun.

It just sounded like he was giving that as an excuse, as if having the devs walk about in Kentucky and seeing the amount of guns would make them reconsider adding it to the game. As if the only reason for the lack of guns ingame was their ignorance.

 

I'm sure the devs are aware of the gun culture in Kentucky, but as they've said before. Gameplay comes before realism.

 

Note: I am aware my post seems a bit lacking on the lovelies so have these smilies to cheer you up.

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

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11 hours ago, King Kitteh said:

 

I didn't think he was saying the devs are anti-gun.

It just sounded like he was giving that as an excuse, as if having the devs walk about in Kentucky and seeing the amount of guns would make them reconsider adding it to the game. As if the only reason for the lack of guns ingame was their ignorance.

 

I'm sure the devs are aware of the gun culture in Kentucky, but as they've said before. Gameplay comes before realism.

 

Note: I am aware my post seems a bit lacking on the lovelies so have these smilies to cheer you up.

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

 

You need to realize that the 'gameplay' side of this is still heavily debatable... we've definitely established that gameplay is the reason they aren't going forward on improving the gun spawn and variety, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement or things they can do to improve the sandbox options.

 

For example, I think that the rifles and shotguns should at least have a slight chance to appear in homes. The most jarring thing about the current system is that you can't find guns where they would most likely be outside of gunshops and police stations, in a state that's one of the more casual ones when it comes to guns. That, and you can't even find rifles in police stations, yet you can find the ammo for them... so there is definitely that.

 

That way, people can still increase the gun spawn rate in sandbox, and they can be happy that they don't need to mod the loot lists to get an effective loot spawn for the sandbox mode they are trying to create.

 

Also, it still blows my mind that there is a possibility that the final run of the game will release with Fort Knox and a military airfield and endgame groups will be stuck with rather basic hunting rifles and shotguns...

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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12 hours ago, King Kitteh said:

 

I didn't think he was saying the devs are anti-gun.

It just sounded like he was giving that as an excuse, as if having the devs walk about in Kentucky and seeing the amount of guns would make them reconsider adding it to the game. As if the only reason for the lack of guns ingame was their ignorance.

 

I'm sure the devs are aware of the gun culture in Kentucky, but as they've said before. Gameplay comes before realism.

 

Note: I am aware my post seems a bit lacking on the lovelies so have these smilies to cheer you up.

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

They clearly do care about realism though.  That's why we're getting a nutrition system.  It's why fire spreads and is dangerous both to you and zombies.  It's why you can get cut by broken glass then die a week later from infection.

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1 hour ago, Kim Jong Un said:

 

 

Also, it still blows my mind that there is a possibility that the final run of the game will release with Fort Knox and a military airfield and endgame groups will be stuck with rather basic hunting rifles and shotguns...

 

^This pretty much tells the whole tale.

 

If they plan on expanding the game with some Military content, then there should absolutely be Auto and Semi-Auto firearms in the game. And i'm quite certain that guards at Fort Knox carry around such firearms too.

 

So if ANYTHING, the additions of Fort Knox and other Military elements should come close to flooding the game with high caliber militaristic firearms.

Edited by Kelefane
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1 hour ago, Kelefane said:

 

^This pretty much tells the whole tale.

 

If they plan on expanding the game with some Military content, then there should absolutely be Auto and Semi-Auto firearms in the game. And i'm quite certain that guards at Fort Knox carry around such firearms too.

 

So if ANYTHING, the additions of Fort Knox and other Military elements should come close to flooding the game with high caliber militaristic firearms.

 

Actually Fort Knox.. is a Tank Base, and most of the people on it are tank crew in training, there are only about 7000 troops there, with about 80,000 non combat people, including civilians and family. There won't be a mass release of guns everywhere, its not that kinda base. 

 

But yes, they should and probably will be included somewhere. 

 

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12 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Blows my mind that you think the military will be running around with shotguns and varmint rifles . . . just because TIS doesn't want the world crammed with firearms or for the game to be defined by its firearm selection.

They seem to want the game defined by realism, note the nutrition and medical systems, and the new tripping-when-panicked feature.  So it's not farfetched to expect a realistic amount and variety of firearms.

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59 minutes ago, Millitron said:

They seem to want the game defined by realism, note the nutrition and medical systems, and the new tripping-when-panicked feature.  So it's not farfetched to expect a realistic amount and variety of firearms.

And you can have them. Just use your imagination. Pistol, shotgun,  several types of rifles, and other projectile weaponry covers your  bases nicely, without getting lost in the details.

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5 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

And you can have them. Just use your imagination. Pistol, shotgun,  several types of rifles, and other projectile weaponry covers your  bases nicely, without getting lost in the details.

Remember the Lost Kids in Hook? Remember how they eat? Just do the same with firearms x) 

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2 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

And you can have them. Just use your imagination. Pistol, shotgun,  several types of rifles, and other projectile weaponry covers your  bases nicely, without getting lost in the details.

We have no semi-automatic rifles, which as I've said before are very common.  I'm not asking for every single company's AR15 copy to be in the game.  I'd be fine with one semi-auto rifle.  It's just a total disconnect to me for the game to have such a heavy focus on realism when it comes to so many things, but screw up this one basic thing.

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11 minutes ago, Trojan_Turps said:

have the devs ever said that they are not adding an assault rifle??? I don't know..?

*taps nose* Someone might be catching on that replies in this thread don't mean we're stuck with the current crop of weapons in the future, even if TIS has no plans to go the ORGM route. It'll just be limited to more of an archetype role.

 

16 minutes ago, Millitron said:

We have no semi-automatic rifles, which as I've said before are very common.  I'm not asking for every single company's AR15 copy to be in the game.  I'd be fine with one semi-auto rifle.  It's just a total disconnect to me for the game to have such a heavy focus on realism when it comes to so many things, but screw up this one basic thing.

We may not have any now, but that doesn't mean that, when it's appropriate, the military element will be left out of the game, does it?

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30 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

*taps nose* Someone might be catching on that replies in this thread don't mean we're stuck with the current crop of weapons in the future, even if TIS has no plans to go the ORGM route. It'll just be limited to more of an archetype role.

 

We may not have any now, but that doesn't mean that, when it's appropriate, the military element will be left out of the game, does it?

The addition of the military will not solve the issue, unless you plan on adding two new archetypes; semi-auto rifles, and machine guns.  Because remember, semi-automatic rifles are very common in civilian ownership.

Edited by Millitron
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8 minutes ago, Millitron said:

The addition of the military will not solve the issue, unless you plan on adding two new archetypes; semi-auto rifles, and machine guns.  Because remember, semi-automatic rifles are very common in civilian ownership.

Again, I'm hoping that's very obviously what I suggested in my last three or four posts.

 

For that matter, I don't think anyone has said that the devs only plan on having the current crop of weapons in the final game or that the spawn rates couldn't be adjusted - slightly. There's no intention of going anywhere near Jagged Allliance 2/ORGM's scope however, nor are guns likely to become as plentiful as they -may- be in reality.

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