We deserve at least monthy updates on NPCs

[Kajin]

I'm unsure how long you've been following the game, Ronin, but people complaining about NPCs takes a noticeable and often thoroughly unlovely spike every time a developer farts and it so much as sounds like them saying NPCs. The developing team at TIS wholeheartedly welcomes criticism and takes it in good stride with stunning fortitude, but there comes a point where they have to draw a line somewhere. People tend to get a bit passionate when it comes to things they desire and that passion quickly turns to anger when such desires are withheld.

 

People complaining about lack of NPCs the TIS staff can handle. But what some of these people do and say goes straight past complaint and becomes something downright unreasonable in its anger. Nastiness and bitter feelings abound and bans occasionally get handed out to those who go overboard.

[Trojan_Turps]

In a business in which you can not predict how long things will take ETA's are no help to anyone.

When the ETA is missed (and it will be missed) everyone suffers.

The people waiting for there product get angry. They start giving non-constructive criticism or full on attacks.

The staff (people) that failed to hit the deadline feel like they have let everyone down and get depressed. Start cutting corners or give up.

Repeatedly creating and missing ETA's (that are guesses) is madness and will create madness!

[The13thRonin]

It's a cognitive bias if I don't agree with you, The13thRonin?

 

That's a straw man logical fallacy there. What that means is that you are (perhaps unintentionally) misrepresenting my argument. My argument was never "you have a cognitive bias because you don't agree with me." It was "you are engaging in a type of cognitive bias based on a past negative experience." You clearly stated that:

 

Thanks, but we'll take our own real-world experience on this over the theoretical argument for or against it.

 

Dictionary.com defines bias as "a particular tendency, trend, inclination, feeling, or opinion, especially one that is preconceived or unreasoned".  Your comment definitely fits that definition. As you can see this has nothing to do with you not agreeing with me... Hell I even stated that "I don't personally care about regular updates." That is a pretty clear statement right there.

 

What, exactly, is wrong with the developers wanting to work on NPCs privately for a while, or not wishing to get people's hopes up with a date that is outright meaningless?

 

Again this is a straw man logical fallacy. I never claimed that there was anything wrong with this. What I have been arguing is that the people who are for monthly updates regarding NPC development should not be outright dismissed.

 

You wield a significant amount of influence as part of the Project Zomboid team. Coming into the thread and telling people that the discussion is basically useless and that nothing (even significant evidence that goes against your choice) will even make you consider what these people are discussing and will be outright dismissed based on cognitive biases is not helpful to anyone. If that is the case then the thread might as well be deleted or locked. There is a difference between submitting to what people want and honestly listening to them.

 

And if you get mugged three times on different trains then you might take the opportunity to reflect on the experience and perhaps the next time you step on a train you stop sticking $100 bills all over your body and carrying a sign that reads "mug me baby one more time". That or you recognise that you are a massive statistical abnormality and carry on living your life normally.

Ah, victim blaming. "You had to be doing something wrong if a series of unfortunate events befell you in a statistically anonymous pattern!" Brilliant.

Because TIS hasn't lived through that in the past, either. And, yes, people regularly go back to that well, yet TIS continues on.

 

 

While this is getting away from the original argument I will respond to it. You may notice that I wrote if a person is mugged multiple times on multiple different trains then they are either doing something to encourage the muggings OR they are a statistical abnormality. 'Victim blaming' is no offense, stupid buzzwords that have no meaning. There's a reason you learn from a young age to not trust strangers and to be more vigilant at after dark. The cold hard facts are that there will always be criminals out there who will endanger or harm people for a variety of reasons. Taking steps to minimise risks to yourself is the smart thing to do. Expecting that the world will conform to you is stupid. If while on safari a person against all advice left the safety of the vehicle and was mauled by lions would you blame the person or the lions? Something to think about...

 

I have no stake in the matter other than I think that the discussion is healthy for the community and you as developers and I think it should be engaged with honestly.

 

I hope that you do not take my criticisms personally. I both love Project Zomboid and admire the developers. But sometimes when you truly admire someone you have to point out when you think what they're doing is not in their own best interests.

 

EDIT: To the people who think I am uninformed regarding the NPC ETA incidents I was one of the first buyers of Project Zomboid even if I am a late addition to the forums. If anyone needs confirmation of that I still have my email detailing purchase in July, 2011 that I am happy to screenshot to prove. I have never regretted my purchase.

[Kajin]

The people demanding regular updates on NPCs aren't being ignored or dismissed, though. The developers have tried to accommodate them on multiple occasions by talking about NPCs, but every single time they do people completely lose their shit and start getting all excited about what the devs are saying. Some of these people even go so far as to assume this means NPCs are imminent then get annoyed and angry when this proves untrue despite no ETA being given. Others get pissed off at the reminder of what they've yet to get and start losing their shit in a different way.

 

Ultimately it was decided that talking about NPCs results in far too much drama for far too little benefit to the community, so the devs stopped it altogether. It's as simple as that. To use the problem from earlier, if you get mugged every single time you go onto the train, it's not because you're some kind of statistical anomaly. Far more likely it's because thieves and muggers just like to hang around trains and you should stop taking the train system altogether. There's no cognitive bias against the idea that you should stop taking trains if there is, in fact, a lot of crime taking place inside those trains. That's because a cognitive bias is a decision making process grounded in illogical or nonsensical data that doesn't correlate to reality.

 

There are muggers on the train. This is the reality you live in, so you adjust your decisions accordingly by not taking trains. Ergo, if people get far too riled up about lack of NPCs when you talk about NPCs, then you should stop talking about NPCs until you have something you can actually give them. This is the reality that exists so you must live accordingly.

[EnigmaGrey]

It's a cognitive bias if I don't agree with you, The13thRonin?

 

That's a straw man logical fallacy there. What that means is that you are (perhaps unintentionally) misrepresenting my argument. My argument was never "you have a cognitive bias because you don't agree with me." It was "you are engaging in a type of cognitive bias based on a past negative experience." You clearly stated that:

 

Thanks, but we'll take our own real-world experience on this over the theoretical argument for or against it.

 

Dictionary.com defines bias as "a particular tendency, trend, inclination, feeling, or opinion, especially one that is preconceived or unreasoned".  Your comment definitely fits that definition. As you can see this has nothing to do with you not agreeing with me... Hell I even stated that "I don't personally care about regular updates." That is a pretty clear statement right there.

 

What, exactly, is wrong with the developers wanting to work on NPCs privately for a while, or not wishing to get people's hopes up with a date that is outright meaningless?

 

Again this is a straw man logical fallacy. I never claimed that there was anything wrong with this. What I have been arguing is that the people who are for monthly updates regarding NPC development should not be outright dismissed.

No, but you may have unintentionally implied it, as you continue to insist that the end result of four years of history with thousands of people is somehow a cognitive bias. Perhaps I'm just over sensitive to something that seems to combine both illogical behavior and irrationality, and your insistence that this is really what's going on, regardless of the side (or lack of side) you take on this matter.

 

You wield a significant amount of influence as part of the Project Zomboid team. Coming into the thread and telling people that the discussion is basically useless and that nothing (even significant evidence that goes against your choice) will even make you consider what these people are discussing and will be outright dismissed based on cognitive biases is not helpful to anyone. If that is the case then the thread might as well be deleted or locked. There is a difference between submitting to what people want and honestly listening to them.

It is a useless discussion; we have our own collective history to back this up.

Unfortunately, I missed the references you provided in your initial post, however. Of those games, only Towns I actively followed. The outcry wasn't because of a lack of ETAs, but because it was abandoned after its last update?

The topic remains open only so that others may discuss it. At most, it provides a place for those that agree or disagree to congregate and get it off their chests, rather than spread it . . . everywhere.

[The13thRonin]

"No, but you may have unintentionally implied it, as you continue to insist that the end result of four years of history with thousands of people is somehow a cognitive bias.

 

I may have unintentionally implied it? According to who? I am outright telling you what my argument is in the most clear and explicit manner possible. If you're asserting the power to decide on the meaning of someone's words lies with the person listening and not the person speaking then I can claim you are implying anything. For example I could claim that what you're saying may have unintentionally implied that you drink the tears of orphaned puppies. Why do you hate puppies so much? I hope you can see that this kind of reasoning is both frustrating and reductive.

 

Your history is exactly why you have a cognitive bias. You have admitted that you are having an emotional reaction to your past experiences.

 

Perhaps I'm just over sensitive to something that seems to combine both illogical behavior and irrationality, and your insistence that this is really what's going on, regardless of the side (or lack of side) you take on this matter."

 

I don't see how anything that I've said has been illogical or irrational. If you do find this to be the case I'm going to need you to be specific about what you're having trouble understanding.

 

It is a useless discussion; we have our own collective history to back this up... The topic remains open only so that others may discuss it. At most, it provides a place for those that agree or disagree to congregate.

 

If it is a useless discussion then the thread should be deleted or locked. Leaving it open and calling it useless at the same time makes no sense. If it remains open (which I strongly believe it should) it should be engaged with in good faith. The fact that it is one of the most active topics on the board speaks volumes regarding the fact that this is a discussion that should be happening.

 

Unfortunately, I missed the references you provided in your initial post, however. Of those games, only Towns I actively followed. The outcry wasn't because of a lack of ETAs, but because it was abandoned after its last update?

 

The point was that Towns never gave ETAs for its updates. When the updates did come before development was shut down reception was overwhelmingly negative. While it is hard to prove with hard evidence, it is likely that a large part of the negative reception of the updates was lack of transparency and a failure to engage with the community in a positive manner.

 

You're sure my questions were strawman above? Because . . . *Sigh* Now you've expliciately said that you disagree with TIS's decision regarding this matter. Which is fine, but sort of defeats the "I have no side in this" plea.

 

Claiming that there is validity to an argument is not the same as adopting that argument for yourself. The world is not black or white, there are many different shades of grey.

 

There is no reason to get angry with what I am saying or speak condescendingly (referring to the *sigh*). I am not personally attacking you. I'd rather keep the conversation gentlemanly if possible?

[Zorak]

Oh god, I cant belive that this topic is so long and still not locked.

1st thing: Devs can do whatever they want. Early Acces terms are your buying the game as it is now.

2nd thing: TIS give us a LOT of info about backstage dev process. You get weekly mondoid + tons of info from twitter, steam forum and this forum. Show me other indie or AAA company that does that.

3rd thing: some things just take long. NPCs are suspose to do all the things that players can. A lot of important game aspects (vehicles, animations, new combat, new physics) are not done yet. They cant code new combat system to NPCs if its not ready yet, and putting old system if they want to change it, its just wasting of time.

So take a chill pill and be patient.

[EnigmaGrey]

Implication and inference are part of human communication. You came into a thread with a trollish title and have argued heavily on the side against "No ETAs" and have actively attempted to justify complaints of this nature, while diagnosing us with cognitive bias.

At this point, I really do not think you're as disinterested as you assume yourself to be, despite your claims to the contrary.

I'm not interested in your armchair psychologist approach to this thread, or your judgement as to whether it should or shouldn't be locked, or whether you agree with my reasoning doing either of these things.

Towns is a poor example for the reasons you list, Ronin. Unlike TIS, they gave no ETAs and eventually abandoned their project. It's not relevant to this discussion.

[The13thRonin]

Implication and inference are part of human communication. You came into a thread with a trollish title and have argued heavily on the side against "No ETAs" and have actively attempted to justify complaints of this nature, while diagnosing us with cognitive bias.

At this point, I really do not think you're as disinterested as you assume yourself to be, despite your claims to the contrary.

 

Trollish title? The original post was perhaps a little on the blunt side but I have no reason to believe the thread was posted in bad faith? What exactly is trollish about the title? Honest question... I don't know how to prove this to you but I just can't see what you can see here.

 

I have argued for people being allowed to express an opinion without being dog-piled for it. This might blow your mind (or it might not) but I am actually for Atheists having the right to express themselves even though I'm a Catholic. Not only am I for them having the right to express themselves I think honest discussion between these groups helps to generate healthy introspection and is overall a positive thing.

 

I never claimed to be disinterested in the discussion itself (or obviously I wouldn't be posting). But I honestly couldn't care less whether you provide more information regarding NPCs or not. I care that people should not be shut down for 'wrong-think'.

 

Everyone has cognitive biases by the way. This is not a bad thing. It does not make you bad people (I have cognitive biases too)... All it means is that you should make an extra effort to recognise that you are being influenced by past experiences and work to actively overcome the biases and listen to other perspectives (this does not mean that you have to submit to them though). Giving in to a bias is never the right thing to do. You are better than that.

 

I am sorry that people have been jerks to you in the past... But don't assume that means that everyone will be a jerk in the future.

 

Your community is having this discussion because they care about your game... If they didn't care they'd be playing something else.

[EnigmaGrey]

No one has been dog piled, thus the position that they shouldn't be dog piled seems pointless. No one has been shut down for wrong-think in this thread.

Again, you insist my position is due to a cognitive bias and by holding to it, I'm submitting to it. Thanks, but I do not agree with your opinion regarding the no ETA position and feel I've taken that extra effort to examine and recognize my own biases, whether you agree or disagree.

Both Vanguard and Darkest Dungeon appear to give ETAs, so . . . again, I fail to see how they're relevant to your position. Instead, anger seems to be directed a choices the developers made within those contentious updates.

[The13thRonin]

No one has been dog piled, thus the position that they shouldn't be dog piled seems pointless. No one has been shut down for wrong-think in this thread.

Again, you insist my position is due to a cognitive bias and by holding to it, I'm submitting to it. Thanks, but I do not agree with your opinion regarding the no ETA position and feel I've taken that extra effort to examine and recognize my own biases, whether you agree or disagree.

 

As a member of the Project Zomboid team you just called the whole thread 'trollish' (which you did not elaborate on when questioned). Before that you said: 'This thread was much less exciting than anticipated. "No. That's not a challenge."'

 

As I explained before as one of the official team you carry a lot of influence. You are implicitly encouraging members of the community to attack the discussion happening in the thread. You'll notice evidence of this (not that such an obvious statement should even need proof but I will oblige anyway) in the fact that even among all of the people disagreeing with the argument that more information should be released about NPCs your comments have the most likes and are referenced the most by other people (directly quoting you).

 

If that's not an attempt to shut the discussion down then what is?

 

I'm not insisting anything. You flat out stated that your stance is informed by your past experiences. If that is not a bias to you then would you please give me your definition of bias? The one I provided you is from a dictionary.

 

When someone's sweet old grandmother makes racist remarks she is also making them based on her past experiences. That doesn't make the remarks right, it makes them based on biases.

[EnigmaGrey]

I called specifically the title of the thread trollish; the "This thread was much less exciting than anticipated ..." is a quip about the thread not turning ugly.

If I wanted to shut the discussion down, I'd just lock the thread. Very simple. That doesn't mean I have to be supportive of the original poster's position, presentation, or must refrain from humor,

My main contention is not that you say I have a bias due to past experience: It's that you continue to present that in a negative light in an attempt to convince me that my position is faulty, that I'm submitting to it, and that I'm not putting in enough effort to rise above it. A pointless effort, as past experience invoking ETAs have consistently proven to hurt both the community and its players. You will not change this opinion with argument -- only the community's behavior the next time an ETA is given or NPCs are released or discussed can.

[Kajin]

Ronin, at this point I don't even know WHAT you're arguing about. You seem to be complaining about TIS making decisions based on past experiences... Something which is perfectly justifiable, seeing as past experience can be, and often is, a good indication of future experiences. Past experience dictates that people become highly unreasonable at best and practically lose their fucking minds at worst whenever NPCs are mentioned. This has happened many times and has resulted in a great deal of grief and hostility over the months and years.

 

You seem to seriously be suggesting that the TIS team abandons all sense of pattern recognition and throw themselves to the mercy of the internet at the expectation of achieving a different result. That different result will not happen because it has never happened. All it will achieve is hurt feelings, gnashed teeth and ill will amongst the community members.

[Suomiboi]

And if you get mugged three times on different trains then you might take the opportunity to reflect on the experience and perhaps the next time you step on a train you stop sticking $100 bills all over your body and carrying a sign that reads "mug me baby one more time". That or you recognise that you are a massive statistical abnormality and carry on living your life normally.

I'm just going to point this one thing out that bothered me. Let's go with this mugging theory.

 

When the Indie Stone make a post aka step on the train, they don't get mugged (complaints) usually, but when they wave the wad of bills aka ETAs they do (or if they drop it accidentally aka don't make the date), and even more so with anything related to NPCs aka the "mug me" sign (it's slowly developed to this and I think this is a decent comparison). What they should do in your scenario is, at least how I see it, exactly what they are doing... They haven't stopped taking the train, they just don't wave the money anymore. And the signs have been left home. The train is still moving and you can read updates etc. Even if it is bias that's caused, I personally would not post any ETAs or NPC related either, as it has almost always fueled angry discussions.

 

I'm not taking sides on how Enigma or anyone else is doing their job, as it's not in my interests. If that's your main point then I digress.

[The13thRonin]

Ronin, at this point I don't even know WHAT you're arguing about. You seem to be complaining about TIS making decisions based on past experiences... Something which is perfectly justifiable, seeing as past experience can be, and often is, a good indication of future experiences. Past experience dictates that people become highly unreasonable at best and practically lose their fucking minds at worst whenever NPCs are mentioned. This has happened many times and has resulted in a great deal of grief and hostility over the months and years.

 

You seem to seriously be suggesting that the TIS team abandons all sense of pattern recognition and throw themselves to the mercy of the internet at the expectation of achieving a different result. That different result will not happen because it has never happened. All it will achieve is hurt feelings, gnashed teeth and ill will amongst the community members.

 

Making decisions based on experiences and not logic is faulty though. If you'll humor me, I'll draw you an analogy...

 

If someone is mugged by someone who is *INSERT ETHNICITY HERE* for example while walking down the street (even if it happened twice or three times) then the person might make an incorrect conclusion based on their experiences. Some incorrect and racist conclusions that they might reach are:

 

- *INSERT ETHNICITY HERE* are more dangerous than other people.

- *INSERT ETHNICITY HERE* are all criminals.

 

I use this example of an incorrect and racist conclusion because I personally know people who have sadly been the victim of crimes and then use that experience to reach an illogical conclusion. The logical conclusion is:

 

- I was mugged which was unfortunate but it has nothing to do with race.

 

While this conclusion is correct it does not align with the hypothetical person's 'lived experiences'. Sometimes the only way for a person to see past their own 'lived experiences' is by hearing perspectives from other people. This is why discussion is important and why you never shut discussion down if you want a healthy exchange of ideas.

[The13thRonin]

 

And if you get mugged three times on different trains then you might take the opportunity to reflect on the experience and perhaps the next time you step on a train you stop sticking $100 bills all over your body and carrying a sign that reads "mug me baby one more time". That or you recognise that you are a massive statistical abnormality and carry on living your life normally.

I'm just going to point this one thing out that bothered me. Let's go with this mugging theory.

 

When the Indie Stone make a post aka step on the train, they don't get mugged (complaints) usually, but when they wave the wad of bills aka ETAs they do (or if they drop it accidentally aka don't make the date), and even more so with anything related to NPCs aka the "mug me" sign (it's slowly developed to this and I think this is a decent comparison). What they should do in your scenario is, at least how I see it, exactly what they are doing... They haven't stopped taking the train, they just don't wave the money anymore. And the signs have been left home. The train is still moving and you can read updates etc. Even if it is bias that's caused, I personally would not post any ETAs or NPC related either, as it has almost always fueled angry discussions.

 

I'm not taking sides on how Enigma or anyone else is doing their job, as it's not in my interests. If that's your main point then I digress.

 

 

That is an interesting perspective Suoimboi, I appreciate the fact that you shared it and that you did so without attacking me. Would you allow me to elaborate on my perspective further? I am not trying to say that your perspective is wrong, only trying to give you greater insight into my own way of thinking.

 

If the Indie Stone holding the 'mug me' sign is analogous to them releasing information on NPCs then they should have stopped getting mugged after they stopped releasing information about NPCs. The fact that we are here in this thread discussing that decision and the fact that it is also discussed on the Steam forums seems to indicate that people being bitter about the lack of NPCs have not disappeared. To go back to my analogy which by now is becoming admittedly convoluted it would be analogous to the Indie Stone removing their shirt and flipping the bird at everyone in the area while still holding the sign. They have not addressed the root concerns of parts of their community by engaging with them... They have just told those people (and everyone around them that happens to not be a jerk) that they don't care about their concerns.

 

Like I mentioned before... I absolutely condemn people being jerks to the Indie Stone. But just because there are some jerks does not discount all the people out there that aren't jerks that might hold the same opinions but not be quite so vitriolic about them. I hope you can understand my thinking here even if you do not agree with it. I'm going to like your post anyway because I appreciate you adding to the discussion.

[EnigmaGrey]

So the argument switches slightly to "muggings have gone down" instead of "muggings have stopped."

This is why hypotheticals and absolutism suck.

[The13thRonin]

So the argument switches slightly to "muggings have gone down" instead of "muggings have stopped."

This is why hypotheticals and absolutism suck.

 

If you treat everyone in society like a criminal and lock them all up there won't be any muggings. There's a reason the government doesn't do that.

 

Don't lump everyone with valid concerns or who disagrees with you in with people who are actual trolls or who post in bad faith. These two groups are not the same.

 

Why should all of the community be treated like children who are on the verge of having a tantrum for the misdeeds of a few? Not everyone in the community is bad. Most people are good.

[Kajin]

I still don't get what you're trying for. You're saying the past experiences of the community as a whole are inherently illogical... why? Because you say so? What basis are you dismissing the logic of the reality as it stands to the eyes of those who behold it? I'm looking at you and I'm reading what you type and it makes no sense to me. Instead of arguing about the inherent racist conclusions of being mugged by someone of such and such ethnicity, it feels more like you're trying to say that getting stabbed in the chest during said mugging only hurts because past experience dictates that it should hurt when really it actually doesn't hurt at all.

 

Taking this back into reality, you're suggesting that maybe this time people actually won't lose their shit and throw temper tantrums if the devs put down an ETA for introduction of NPCs even though they have absolutely no idea whatsoever if the ETA in question can actually be reached. So if that ETA doesn't get reached and they end up being pushed back again, people won't get upset? People won't get angry? That even though this has been the truth every single time the devs discuss NPCs at all people won't feel like they're being dragged along unfairly and bitch and whine and moan? Because that happens. A lot. The devs gave a soft ETA for NPCs for Q2 of this year and stressed as hard as they could that they didn't think they could actually reach it but were being hopeful. And then when they didn't reach it people got angry anyway, even though they outright SAID it probably wouldn't happen. They only did it to toss a bone to the people who wanted the information and they got nothing but grief over it.

 

You seem to be going way the hell out of your way to conflate actual pattern recognition with willful delusion, even though the devs gain precisely jack by doing so.

[EnigmaGrey]

So the argument switches slightly to "muggings have gone down" instead of "muggings have stopped."

This is why hypotheticals and absolutism suck.

 

If you treat everyone in society like a criminal and lock them all up there won't be any muggings. There's a reason the government doesn't do that.

Gosh.

That has no baring at all on this discussion.

Keep it up, along with the attempt to prove the validity of your augmenter via racism analogies, and we can kill this thread together.

Join me, Ronin.

[The13thRonin]

 

 

So the argument switches slightly to "muggings have gone down" instead of "muggings have stopped."

This is why hypotheticals and absolutism suck.

 

If you treat everyone in society like a criminal and lock them all up there won't be any muggings. There's a reason the government doesn't do that.

 

Gosh.

That has no baring at all on this discussion.

Keep it up, along with the racism comments, and we can kill this thread together.

 

 

Comments about racism are not racist. It was a fair analogy. Could you explain your problem with it? Racism is about not valuing people as individuals but painting groups with a negative brush. I'm not saying that you're racist but you're using a similar method. The whole community is not bad because of the actions of a few.

 

If you kill the thread that's your business. This is your forum, your community that you built over the last four years. If that's what you want then I can't stop you (nor would I care to if I could).

 

This will be my last comment on this anyway as at this point we're just going round and round in circles. A lot of the comments I have made you have not responded to at all. I still want to know why everyone is punished for the actions of a few bad eggs. Surely your opinion of this community is higher than that?

 

I must say that I love this game and I have ever since 2011 but the exchange we have had in this thread has really jaded me now. I am not a troll... I am a person who has bought, played and loved your game for the better part of four years (and will still continue to do so). However I don't appreciate it when a team member would discount all of that and act in such a dismissive way just because I don't agree with their point of view entirely. I think as someone who supported you right from the start, right from the very start, who stuck with you through all of the major ups and downs, I deserve better than that... And I believe there are other people here who deserve better than that too. And we're just all getting tarred with the same brush.

 

I walk away from this thread greatly saddened by that fact.

[EnigmaGrey]

So the argument switches slightly to "muggings have gone down" instead of "muggings have stopped."

This is why hypotheticals and absolutism suck.

 

If you treat everyone in society like a criminal and lock them all up there won't be any muggings. There's a reason the government doesn't do that.

 

Don't lump everyone with valid concerns or who disagrees with you in with people who are actual trolls or who post in bad faith. These two groups are not the same.

 

Why should all of the community be treated like children who are on the verge of having a tantrum for the misdeeds of a few? Not everyone in the community is bad. Most people are good.

That's a fine edit, dude. Way to not imply anything relating to the staff of the forum.

Fine, you get to be the reason we can't have nice things today.

[Rathlord]

Just as a final comment... No one was dismissed in this thread and acting like you're being "painted with a brush" is exactly why we can't have this discussion. No one dismissed you, they disagreed with you. It makes us sad and jaded, too, when we try to have this conversation and people react that way.

And finally, I think you should consider the differences between cognitive bias and evidence, because you seem to have them confused.

Also relevant is the quote about insanity often (mis)attributed to Einstein.