Zombies need to be "meatier"

[deprav]

After playing Telltale's TWD and No More Room In Hell, I found myself thinking about something missing in PZ : zombies are not "physical" enough, it's pretty hard to explain but I'll try !

It feels like they have no weight, like they're almost made of gaz, which make them less scary than they should be. The only thing that reminds us they're physical entities is the grab mechanic, it's the only thing that make zombies physically interact with your character's body right now. Other than that, except being injured (during the grab), you can pretty much run through them if you storm out of a building, they pass through each other when they attack you, you can close doors and windows as they're in the middle when they should be a dangerous obstacle if you didn't close it before they reached you etc...

I think it would be good to add that weight to their body, making them "take more space", some bumps or block if you happen to run into one, some tripping if you run at arm distance of a crawler, a real physical obstacle when they're behind doors & windows, a larger "radius of threat" that really makes you want to avoid being too close.

I know all of this isn't possible without new animations (and I know TIS  talked about recruiting a new guy for the animations), But it felt like it had to be said ! I know you guys are boiling your brains over the currently too easy combat system, but I think zombies "physical presence" is actually a big part of the equation ;o  (And I hope it will all become easier with the new animation guy)

xoxo

[Blasted_Taco]

I was actually thinking about the same thing the other time after playing Contagion.

 

Is far too easy to run close to the zombies and dont get hurt or any penalty for it.

Zombies should be able to scratch you when you are near them, they should be able to trip over you and make you fall, zombies really need to be a threat.

 

More so in MP when no one notice them, one of the best tactics in MP right now is just bait them around and then run zig zag though them.

 

I think they should be able to grab you by the arm, grab you by any means and make you fall, and in the floor you are just another easy target.

 

We need those animations, not for the baseball bat but for the core of the game, the zombies right now feel kinda flawed.

[IronCoffins]

Agreed with this, zombies do need to be more of a lethal threat, but not just look it either. The running past the zombies though the door ordeal can be easily done all the time, unless there is alot of them. It is mostly why I don't play survival anymore and just sandbox, though I leave everything the same expect zombie setting to insane, seems to be the only way I get a challenge anymore from the game. Maybe im just getting used to it I guess, who knows? But zombies do need a revamp on something's, after all they are the main threat here. Another thing I've noticed is the path finding for the zombies. I've saw a lot of them get caught up on the stairs chasing you or jump over walls and/or windows if there near it.(though I think the tendency for that was fixed up a bit) in the past.

[Viceroy]

I agree, NMRIH illustrates the dangers of a zombie very well, having one in a door is a sure fire way to run the other way. The difficulty needs to be upped and this is a pertinent way to address the issue I feel. I have many times before mentioned that the grabbing mechanic is too weak and in some cases entirely useless.

 

For an illustration of this, and to point out that I think it even constitutes a bug. Check out this report: #000682

 

One zombie should most definitely be able to restrain you and it should most definitely require the player to actively push them back rather than just being able to walk away from them. And I feel that this grappling issue listed above is even more woeful in MP settings where it seems much more difficult to actually get grabbed in the first place.

[ToastedFishSandwich]

I like the sound of them actually colliding with the player properly. If you could actually be blocked by a group of zombies and forced to go round.

[Blasted_Taco]

I agree, NMRIH illustrates the dangers of a zombie very well, having one in a door is a sure fire way to run the other way. The difficulty needs to be upped and this is a pertinent way to address the issue I feel. I have many times before mentioned that the grabbing mechanic is too weak and in some cases entirely useless.

 

This so much, NMRIH really makes zombies a threat for some reason, if you are trapped insde a building and you see a zombie in the door and a window near you, you are going to jump out out of the window cause you know that if you open that door, either you are going to risk a scratch or getting bit, but you damn well know that you cant run past that zombie unless you spam the push button.

 

In PZ, most of the time i played in MP i had a zombie outside my front door, so when i went outside to get wood, i would ran past this single zombie everytime, i never killed him, he was like my watch dog, i think i told other players i called him Alan.

 

Point is, that single zombie shoulda have took me by surprise and either grab me when i went outside or make himself trip so i fall to the ground and there he would be able to kill me.

 

They need to have collision with the player, they need to grab harder, when trying to reach you they need to scratch.

Even in Resident Evil a single zombie can kill you cause if you walk a bit close to them they will longe at you and bite you.

[Kajin]

I like the sound of them actually colliding with the player properly. If you could actually be blocked by a group of zombies and forced to go round.

That already happens. Last night I was running through a narrow alley trying to escape a small horde nipping at my heels but was stopped by just three zeds standing in my way. They grabbed onto me and slowed me down long enough for their buddies to arrive.

[deprav]

 

I like the sound of them actually colliding with the player properly. If you could actually be blocked by a group of zombies and forced to go round.

That already happens. Last night I was running through a narrow alley trying to escape a small horde nipping at my heels but was stopped by just three zeds standing in my way. They grabbed onto me and slowed me down long enough for their buddies to arrive.

 

Yep, that's what I point out in the OP when I say "The only thing that reminds us they're physical entities is the [current] grab mechanic, it's the only thing that make zombies physically interact with your character's body right now.".

But it misses the "meaty" feeling, you sure have a chance to get grabbed but you have a high percentage of chance to run through them [even more in Multiplayer]. There's no "physical interraction" until/unless you get grabbed. Groups of zombies are dangerous because they're a "mass of zeds", a heavy wall of rotting bodies trying to munch your face, a few hundred pounds of dead meat ! you really don't want to sprint into a group of three zombies standing in the doorway. And it misses this feeling right now.

Like, lately I'm playing sandbox with running zombies because it feels like they grab you faster (it's pretty hard & fun), and I still can survive big groups of Z banging at my door : I broke into a house and the alarm went off, I went upstairs to craft a sheetrope and try to sneak out, but it was a hopeless solution ; zombies started banging at the only door of the room I was into and I slaughtered the entire dozen with a baseball bat : I held my swing > press E to open the door > quicly release swing and press E again to close the door so only a couple of them would enter each time, finish them on the floor and repeat until none was left.

But this should not be possible ! as soon as the door would open the MASS of zeds would enter the room, obstructing the door, making me unable to close it back, shamble on each other as they pounce at me, maybe pin me down as their weight crumble all over me etc...

Even the unarmed zombie pushing animation isn't very realistic, if you'd walk up to a Z and try to push him as you stand still it would probably grab your arms and you'd fight for your life or you'd push it a few meters back, making them fall on the ground as you're unarmed should be a real struggle, more than one zombies should be a hopeless situation if you're bare-handed.

[Johnny]

I played TWDG, and I did notice the zombies were actually "Heavy". They are just slightly decomposed people, so imagine lifting a person yourself... Gonna be hard depending their weight, right?

[Jabberi]

Don't take this as a fact, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there will be new animations. With luck zombies will get some new mechanics too. Small things on that department would have great effect on gameplay, since fighting zombies is kinda big part of the game. Crawlers are a good example. Some people might disagree, but I think they made encounters with zombies a lot more fun and interesting.

[Viceroy]

In agreement to deprav I really do think that doors should A) Take a time to open and close, and B) Be obstructed from closing when zombies are against it.

 

This thread makes me wish we had a "Realistic suggestions to enhance difficulty." thread. But it'd need to be quite policed because chances are we will get many unrealistic things debated there. Perhaps it should be a list of previously suggested things and then just links to them. That way the debate and nurd-raeg can occur in each respective topic and the topic itself can remain succinct and clearly formatted.

 

Just a thought.

[IronCoffins]

yea the zombie mechanics do need some work done, things are just to easy now, but wait if I can recall wasn't people in the past saying things were to hard, meh you can never satisfy everyone. Using unarmed combat is to easy, sometimes why even use a weapon, just knock'em and sock'em. That's it. I'm not sure whats in the works for the zombies at this point, but a lot of this games mechanics depends on that, considering its about zombies.

 

There either needs to have a lock on feature like, the old resident evils where getting near them, has them attack you, with chance of being bitten, but of course a break away feature too. I've been grabbed lots of times in this, but it seems its not allways enough, though sometimes its lead to my death. I guess were just have to find out later at some point. but hopefully the issue gets addressed, zombies need to scare you, make you hesitant  to loot somewhere, make you  come up with some tactics, were here to fight for survival not take it on a silver platter.

[Impetiso]

First things first: zombies do have more interactions than just "grab". If you run through them you will push them, you don't walk through them even if they are on the ground (you do if they are dead, and that should be fixed). They can punch you and they can grab you, and if two of them try to walk the door at the same time, they push each other. Let's be fair, they do more than just grab.

As you say, you shouldn't be able to close a door or a window if the zombie is using it (if the animation of jumping through a window has started you shouldn't be able to close it, but you should be even if they are close enough to stop it) and it should be fixed, as well as jumping through a window blocked on the other side

What most of you say it's a flaw is walking next to a zombie, he tries to grab/punch you and fails... and I think it works as it should, because zombies lack on reflexes(except for jumping, and that's weird). Low reflexes is the reason you can kill a zombie with a knife or just punch them without being grabbed (and bitten), as any human behaving like a zombie would bite you if you try to push him.

I held my swing > press E to open the door > quicly release swing and press E again to close the door so only a couple of them would enter each time, finish them on the floor and repeat until none was left.

I think that shouldn't be done, that looks more like a bug than a real feature, because if you are using a baseball bat with both hands and you are helding a swing, how can you open a door?

[Connall]

I'm leaning towards this being more of a PZ Suggestion kind of thread, so I'm moving it in there for the time being.

[Viceroy]

You can kill humans with knives too, you can kill all manner of things. The point we are stressing is that zombies simply do not pose a threat as they should. Countless times I have walked past zombies when looting. Countless times I have climbed out of windows as zombies are climbing in. Countless times have I opened a door to have five zombies outside it and just held shift down to run right through them.

 

We have the ability to push zombies both when armed (missile and melee.) and unarmed, yet there is absolutely no need for this when confronted with a zombie "blocking" a doorway, or standing in a hallway. You just breeze right past them without any effort or player interaction whatsoever. It removes the visceral feel from the game that you actually need to struggle against the undead. It detracts from that "meaty feeling" deprav mentions. If people want to make the game easier a solution would be to play with lower zombie numbers, but as-is even when you push it up to "insane" it feels more like "mundane" when it comes to the actual danger they pose.

 

Make it an option to scale zombie grip and all of these issues will alleviate to some degree. Those who like it weak and non-threatening can keep it as such, where more veteran players can crank it up. Difficulty (The lack thereof.) is the #1 reason I rarely play zomboid anymore.

 

Now I am a fan still, I love the game and love tinkering with it, it just is too easy to keep me interested in putting hours into it. Presently I don't even use weapons, I never sheet anymore and I leave my doors open in the hopes of having some excitement thrust upon me. The thing is that it SHOULD kill you, I am acting like an idiot and I live weeks and months even still. The game should be more like DF or NEO scavenger. It should be a struggle to survive, it should be *How you died.* and not *How you lived for weeks and weeks and quit to start anew.*

 

You see it everywhere, people even call it the "Sims stage" of the game, where you just wander around like some kind of Hollow from Dark Souls without any driving force or threat. So no I don't agree with you Impetiso that it is working as it should. The game is way too easy, for a game based on zombies, the rotten tomato poses a greater threat at present sadly.

[IronCoffins]

well that could solve some issues with a simple difficulty feature, for new and veterans alike. Things I hated about diff. settings was it really never changes anything AI wise or strategy for AI. It mostly just gave the player handicaps and the AI bonuses. So the main question is what options and gameplay would be effected by a diff setting, I would say the zombies, if survival is the official way to play then that mode needs to be the hardest this game has to offer. With sandbox having the luxury of changing something, witch it does. But survival needs to be the hardest setting, we addressed the ordeal with zombie migration, same issues, leave your door wide open, why even build walls or sheet you windows anymore. Lots od zombie lore is different though the years, I allways liked really strong super-human zombies but very durable and weak. So a few is no biggy, but you get 5 or more and you gotta run, that's the feeling people, want I think, or just have that challenge, but with these new additions soon to the melee combat system, maybe it will change this aspect to some degree. or maybe give you the illusion, who knows but im keepin my eye on this thread defiantly

[Viceroy]

I agree IronCoffins, the solution should not merely be a 'rebalance' of current values in its entirety, i should also force the player to think and redo their strategies. Things like setting up alarm clocks outside to lure zombies away at certain intervals for you to safely slip in and out as an example.

 

I completely agree that "survival" should be very hard indeed. And this hinges largely on the dangers a zombie poses. Distractions will become more pivotal as the undead menace increases, forethought and strategy. How prepared you are, what supplies you have. If a group, even a handful of zombies becomes too much to feasibly exterminate single-handedly, you would be forced to hide and run and seek refuge elsewhere, to sneak up and dispatch them whilst attracting as few as possible or to think of a means to lure them away and then lose them.

 

It has to engage the player in day-to-day survival, every looting could be your last, every house you enter, even if it has only one zombie inside, should be potentially fatal if you don't react fast enough or know beforehand that the zombie is in there. It would make you need to check into windows and knock on the door to maybe distract them.

 

Things like these are the things that make surviving fun. I really really don't want to play "Cabbage patch simulator 2014." instead of surviving in the zombie apocalypse. And don't take this as something against farming in general, I just feel that it should be much more dangerous than it currently is. I have seen so often people playing the game like this:

 

Appear in house -> Sheet house and cower -> Find weapon -> Kite and kill dozens upon dozens of zombies -> Find tools -> Build fortress -> Find farming things -> Plant cabbage -> Quit.

 

The issue becomes apparent the moment a new player tests the danger level of a zombie and discovers they pose no threat. The way players kite zombies is so unrealistic it makes me nauseous. In reality one would never walk backwards like that over unknown terrain or through uneven shrubbery and over corpses whilst fixing on a zombie. It would be madness, you would trip and fall and be savaged. Even a sidewalk would fuck you over if you walked backwards like that. Kiting is definitely another issue the game faces, certainly yes you *can* kite, and that is how you win a fight against a zombie yes, but should you kite a zombie in *every* situation? I feel that adding a mechanic where you trip over corpses and such if you don't look at them often enough would fix this.

 

Here is my proposal for a 'tripping dynamic', it is very raw still so bare with me please, but here is how I see it.

 

Things like corpses and sidewalks and shrubbery can trip you, things like stairs when walking backwards down them. So let's call these things "Obstacles" for the sake of illustration. Now let us say you as player have a vision arc that comprises of the things you currently see, and each obstacle has a "memory" variable attached to it. So let's see how these interact on a basic level to simulate tripping realistically.

 

Here lies a pile of cor... I mean "Obstacles." I see them and each tick I see them, the "memory" of them increases. Each tick I don't see them in my vision arc, this "memory" value decreases. With me so far? Good.

 

Now As I walk backwards and kite, if I step on something with a sufficient "Memory" value, I won't trip now would I? Because I know how the corpses... Err... "Obstacles" are positioned. Fair enough?

 

But let's say I didn't look at them or looked at them too long ago because a zombie has been keeping me preoccupied, I then walk backwards over the "Obstacles" and start stumbling in the direction I was kiting, and if I pass over enough obstacles or with bad luck I then falll down, otherwise I stumble in that direction uncontrollably, but then recover back to my feet.

 

I sincerely hope something akin to this mechanic gets implemented to battle kiting. Kiting is natural and is useful, but it IS dangerous without proper situational awareness. The rate this "memory" value gets added to or subtracted from could very well be linked to a skill as well, a skill of "Situational Awareness." that would further add to the depth of characters, the feel of loss upon the death of a character, and an easy place to hook a sandbox setting into to make it easier or harder.

 

With the addition of more animations in the future, one can only hope in the interim

 

Please let me know what you think about such a mechanic, or other ways to add to the "meaty feeling." both of the player and zombies. Since this stumbling could apply potentially to zombies as well, with them falling down stairs or tripping over piles of corpses at times. Adding some more variety to them.

 

Edit: Following the topic since it has some fairly solid discussion.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Viceroy

[Blasted_Taco]

Snips and suggestions

 

I agree with you with the way the player plays the game, i seen it so many times before.

 

Also your suggestion is good but i think is kinda a hard to implement, people will bitch about it like in that zombie game where if you ran and jumped you would trip, same thing when you walked backwards you would trip, people bitched so much about the trip feature and the game failed cause it was buggy too, but leaving that aside, you are right with the kite the players make.

 

And i can bet you, this is not going to change, i just dont see it changeing, players are used to this tactic now and they are not going to change it, never.

They do it in MP to bait zombies while a player loots, they are not going to change that tacitc.

 

I just hope the devs really do something about this problem, the difficulty isnt there anymore, i just dont feel it, i dont feel good after doing a safehouse cause i know zombies wont do anything to it, i dont feel the threat of the zombies anymore, i have to make my own fun with the zombies.

 

I really really hope the Devs read the Suggestions fourm, cause in the General disscusion we were having a bit more feedback then we are going to get in suggestions, they need to add more animation for the zombies to be a threat, begin the zombie falling to tackle to the player down, scraching the player when he runs by insted of trying to grab him, making the zombie really grab him, they need to make the zombies collie with the player, so if i run near him or pass him though a door, the zombie will smack me or scrach me, grab me or just plain out bite me.

[Viceroy]

 

-Snip for brevity-

 

I gotta say I agree. People will inevitably nag about tripping. But then again people will inevitably nag about pretty much anything. But I must say I agree most firmly with your opinion on the difficulty of the game and how you have to seek out fun with the zombies. Don't get me wrong, the zombie repopulation is a step in the right direction, the rebalance of firearms as well is a step in the right direction. I just feel that the zombies themselves are overlooked. They are the danger after all, it is not bad tomatoes or other people that caused the world to end, the reason is very plainly the hordes of undead.

 

As they are however I find it hard to believe they managed to infect enough people to cause a major event. It kinda reminds me of this:

 

[Some Clever Username]

I agree!

The zombies aren't that big of a threat sometimes unless they swarm you when you open the wrong door.

[deprav]

Well  I think the devs are aware of the difficulty issue, I've read from one of them that they were struggling to make the combat harder, and I think it will come in its time, everything gets overhauled !
But the main point of what I'm trying to show is that a big part of the combat difficulty & combat realism do not ONLY come directly from the combat mechanics themselves, but as well from the threat/behaviour/physical impact the things you're fighting have. I'd say it's 50-50. And that concept of "mass" (physical and metaphorical) is a very important thing in any zombie lore. Right now even a horde doesn't feel like an impenetrable wall of death, as it should.

They get lured and "kited" in one single line instead of occupying the space and restraining your area of movement, they're "physical hitbox" is very small which makes it very easy to pass through them, but a 150 pounds corpse should have an impact on your movement ; their grab, scratches and bites are too slow and feel weak. (even more in MP : I let myself die from a group of Z, not touching anything and watching the zeds barelly grabbing me and scratching me to death for quite a while, but they should have bitten me from the start since I wasn't even offering any resistance).

As for the tripping mechanics, that's something I already suggested before and it seems to be a "no-no". Which makes sense since it removes control from the player and that's not something they want. Tho I agree backwalking and kitting is a real issue right now, a simple solution would be to simply slow down the backwalking speed in order to make the zombies faster than our backwalk.

Tho tripping seems to be a reasonnable mechanic if you get your leg grabbed by a crawler while you're running or trying to walk away from him while being grabbed.


Also we forgot something : zombies don't feel pain. A group of zombies is just a compact mass of dead bodies always going forward and pulling anything they can grab to their jaws, as strong as they can, never letting go.
 

 

I'm leaning towards this being more of a PZ Suggestion kind of thread, so I'm moving it in there for the time being.

Yeah, I hesitated before posting. I intended to make the thread more of a discussion about zombie lore and how it would in reality be a struggle to fight a zombie (and groups of those) and let the devs do whatever they want with whatever comes out of the discussion, without suggesting any precise mechanic. But yeah I thought it might turn into a suggestion thread.


 

[Impetiso]

You can kill humans with knives too, you can kill all manner of things. The point we are stressing is that zombies simply do not pose a threat as they should. Countless times I have walked past zombies when looting. Countless times I have climbed out of windows as zombies are climbing in. Countless times have I opened a door to have five zombies outside it and just held shift down to run right through them.

 

We have the ability to push zombies both when armed (missile and melee.) and unarmed, yet there is absolutely no need for this when confronted with a zombie "blocking" a doorway, or standing in a hallway. You just breeze right past them without any effort or player interaction whatsoever. It removes the visceral feel from the game that you actually need to struggle against the undead. It detracts from that "meaty feeling" deprav mentions. If people want to make the game easier a solution would be to play with lower zombie numbers, but as-is even when you push it up to "insane" it feels more like "mundane" when it comes to the actual danger they pose.

 

Make it an option to scale zombie grip and all of these issues will alleviate to some degree. Those who like it weak and non-threatening can keep it as such, where more veteran players can crank it up. Difficulty (The lack thereof.) is the #1 reason I rarely play zomboid anymore.

 

Now I am a fan still, I love the game and love tinkering with it, it just is too easy to keep me interested in putting hours into it. Presently I don't even use weapons, I never sheet anymore and I leave my doors open in the hopes of having some excitement thrust upon me. The thing is that it SHOULD kill you, I am acting like an idiot and I live weeks and months even still. The game should be more like DF or NEO scavenger. It should be a struggle to survive, it should be *How you died.* and not *How you lived for weeks and weeks and quit to start anew.*

 

You see it everywhere, people even call it the "Sims stage" of the game, where you just wander around like some kind of Hollow from Dark Souls without any driving force or threat. So no I don't agree with you Impetiso that it is working as it should. The game is way too easy, for a game based on zombies, the rotten tomato poses a greater threat at present sadly.

I'm not saying zombies work as they should, what i'm saying is zombies shouldn't grab you just by walking next to them, because you are faster and have better reflexes than him. They can grab you if they are behind you and move faster than you and they can grab you if you are in front of them because they doesn't need to react to a change in the direction you are moving. You might want to change that, and I really don't have a problem with making it harder, but there is a reasonable and logical way to explain what they do, so I don't think that is a bug. Besides, a single zombie shouldn't be a major thread (as shouldn't be very easy), not even if you have survived for a year, so running at a zombie and moving him just using your body and your speed is realistic because it's what you do in real life when you run into someone.

After making that clear, I must say that I didn't mention any of the other things you have addressed, so I will answer you:

Should zombies have a better AI? yes, and they should move more frequently to zombie-free zones of the map

Should zombies be harder? yes, but not hard enough to make a single zombie a hardly-stoppable killing machine (that should be an option in sandbox). They should be a threat by their numbers, not by their superhuman powers.

Should zombies have new animations? yes

Should zombie hordes be more frequent? yes, and they should be looking for survivors noise (meaning NPC bases should be sieged at least once a month)

Should that make the game harder? yes, but it will keep the learning curve that allows you to survive (for example)

2 days the first time you play and 2 weeks the second. After all, this isn't Dark Souls.

[EnigmaGrey]

*Reads depraves intiial post, ignores yet-another-zombies-must-grapple thread taking place below*

Agreed. It'd be better if they had full collision. Right now, it feels like you can phase through parts of them.

As to the rest of the thread . . . well, you can see we've already went through this back in July: http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/tracker/issue-682-zombie-grip-when-biting/?gopid=2015#entry2015 And here http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/9778-zombie-changes/#entry125616

[lemmy101]

This will all be addressed now the animations will start flowing - zombie grabs etc will make zombies feel a lot more 'solid' as you say and involve much more interaction between player and zombie. For e.g. we can have zombies pulling you to the floor before death, so there's a way to get absolutely torn apart without having to take sufficient damage on your feet to 'die'. This will make running through hordes practically suicide as 6 zombies around you would likely drag you to the floor within a second and start munching irrespective of your health situation. As they would in the movies/tv shows.

 

re: collision however we'll have to think on this but to be honest if there's a massive horde then doing proper physics collision on them will be a bit CPU hungry. Atm they just sort of emit a force to push them apart, but maybe we could put extra code in for zombie -> player collision, we'll look into that but yeah I totally agree with the main points / criticisms in this thread and it's not something the dev team aren't aware of.

 

The bit at the start of TWD ep 1 (in Clem's house) already made me itch for a panicked trip / clambering to feet / pushing self back across floor away from zombie stuff, but was always too scared to ask for such specific and long anims  esp when there was much higher priority stuff that needed to go in like sneak / cover anims, now we'll feel less so worried about asking for more fancy pants anims and there will presumably come a point where we're inventing new anims out of vanity more than necessity, which will be a nice state of affairs. It's our hope to have a lot of lovely purely cosmetic anims (say for e.g. looting anims) that make every aspect of the game feel more 'real'.

 

But yeah zombies and players interacting will have the lions share of attention very soon.

[Viceroy]

Thank you very much for the constructive reply Lemmy

 

And to EG, this started off as a discussion thread btw.