Russia - Ukraine

[Aenye Deithven]

The first link to the picture shows leaders of "Svoboda" group, who are taking political seats at the moment in ukrainian government building. Even if you believe that they aren't the center of attention, you are lying to yourself if you deny that these are a minority and there's something else behind it.

 

Nazis are present in every country. It's just such an easy ideology - choose someone different and hate, all under the "appropriate" slogans and symbols. Thing is, if everything is good with the country, such groups are small, command a well-disciplined but tiny electorate and are severely marginalised, so the onyl attention they get is from the criminal police.

 

Now, if the country starts encountering problems, particularly economical, such populist groups gain more followers, because they offer an easy explanation: "You earn little money ? That's the fault of *insert disliked minority*, kill them all !" (of course, that example is intentionally grotesque). Ukraine was having its problems for quite a while, so the nazi, fascist and nationalist groups came out of the woodwork, hoping to capitalise on the situation. If they are going to do so, however, they must get media coverage somehow and the easiest way to do it is to paint more symbols, display more 'troops', salute more and shout more slogans. Louder. That they did and are still doing. The government crisis and, later, the Crimean ,,,issue (an understatement, I know) were simply boons for these organisations, allowing them to step up recruiting...

 

Happy times for the populists. On both sides of the border, unfortunately. Sure, the nazis or "nazis" might even get some politically important positions, but should the situation straighten itself out, they will eventually go back into the "vegetative state". That or they will be able to manufacture another crisis, to keep themselves in power - vide Germany in 1933.

[LeoIvanov]

 

Yes, I realise that all this stuff looks really strange. And yes, this is propaganda. But don't let that fool you.

If we look at the American propaganda with videos like this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA  you will see what's this all about.

Just compare the budget and it will clarify lots of things.

 

And about Nazis,

We all have internet, and most importantly we all have google. If you don't believe me you can just search for some pictures from Maidan.

Maybe that will help?

 

 

http://s30.postimg.org/oewnfsctd/8553_60011.jpg

http://www.opendemocracy.net/files/Bankova%20-%2001%20-%20Version%202.jpg

http://img.rt.com/files/opinionpost/21/e8/80/00/ukrainian-nationalists-attacked-police.si.jpg

http://ukrpravda.ua/sites/default/files/styles/img_650x650/public/svastika_na_evromaydane_0.jpg?itok=Xlz9H59i

 

Too be fair, something with this high media attention, you're bound to see these extremist groups. Doesn't mean they are at the centre of everything.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEgUQ4DlXnY

 

 

Yeah, they aren't the center of everything. Does there need to be any more evidence than this?

[Ontogenesis]

Isn't that guy just waving?

[LeoIvanov]

Isn't that guy just waving?

 

Example of "just waving"

 

 

Example of fascist's "sieg heil"

 

 

Which one is more applicable to the guy in glasses?

[Pixel Bombs]

Example of "just waving"

 

 

Example of fascist's "sieg heil"

 

 

Which one is more applicable to the guy in glasses?

 

I remember when a Israeli official was waving his hand when someone snapped a picture and it looked like a sieg heil and a bunch of news sites jumped on it like crazy. Is there context for the motion so we don't have to play the guessing game?

[Xydonus]

This can be settled quite easily by watching this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywfzniko4vQ

[Pixel Bombs]

lol Well there ya go, thanks for clearing that up.

[LeoIvanov]

Alright, so it wasn't that then, my bad for stirring it up. I was actually looking for the source of that photo too, but never found it.

 

Quick Edit : It REALLY looked like it from that perspective though, understandable if you'll blame me now, but I had not found other perspectives on the internet, never thought of looking for a video. Jump me now!

[Connall]

Alright, so it wasn't that then, my bad for stirring it up. I was actually looking for the source of that photo too, but never found it.

 

Quick Edit : It REALLY looked like it from that perspective though, understandable if you'll blame me now, but I had not found other perspectives on the internet, never thought of looking for a video. Jump me now!

 

It's the nature of media and the age we live in, like I said these groups aren't the centre of attention. However people cherry pick and given the right narrative can make them see like they are the centre of attention when they're not. It's all good.

[Cdr.Keen]

He's just greeting - i also use this gesture if somebody is to far away to talk to and i don't want to wave like a child. you'll see this gesture also very often at soccer games (i'm free, pass me the ball *raise hand*).

 

 

 

Isn't that guy just waving?

 

Example of "just waving"

 

 

 

[...]

 

 

if you turn this guy like the picture of the ukraine prime minister, they nealry look similar.

 

another hind is the smile of the ukraine prime minister - i never saw any nazi leader smile like this while doing the sieg heil

[LeoIvanov]

He's just greeting - i also use this gesture if somebody is to far away to talk to and i don't want to wave like a child. you'll see this gesture also very often at soccer games (i'm free, pass me the ball *raise hand*).

 

 

 

Isn't that guy just waving?

 

Example of "just waving"

 

 

 

[...]

 

 

if you turn this guy like the picture of the ukraine prime minister, they nealry look similar.

 

another hind is the smile of the ukraine prime minister - i never saw any nazi leader smile like this while doing the sieg heil

 

It was clear in the video, wasn't however on the picture. As I said, No need to focus on this arguement as I've already stated that I was mistaken.

[Tomwa]

Another example of how the media surrounding this is full of lies.

[Connall]

Another example of how the media surrounding this is full of lies.

 

I've just kind of learned to accept that main media don't really cover The News they cover "news"

 

They're all about viewing figures over facts, what makes the most attractive headline. Often creating blatant lies just to get them ahead or screw over some other news channels. I mean these are people who run stories about celebrities what they are wearing to the oscars, next to murder, or revolutions dropping off of these subjects after a couple of days because they have ceased to be interesting.

 

The perverse way in which murders and shooters are covered to deify the killer. It's all rather messed up situation. It's why I don't watch the news that much apart from getting a general idea because images and videos get twisted to amplify a certain message and deliberately leave out something incredibly important, which is context. Context is what helps to make you understand the situation the photo or video is capturing.

 

So yeah... there's that.

[Artemi]

Okay that picture is not true, but pardon me, how is that gonna change other evidences of the nazis in Ukraine?

 

http://rusplt.ru/netcat_files/79/127/640x420/Ultras_narodnoeveche_main_640.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9494/137106206.481/0_f3e3f_58d67b96_orig

http://prv.ucoz.ru/_nw/2/54825352.jpg

http://kornilov.name/wp-content/uploads/Patriot-Ukrainyi-shhityi-Bankovaya-1024x750.jpg

 

 

And most likely, the euromaidan leaders are informed that they shouldn't show any signs of the nazism in Kiev, cuz everyone knows that this is bad for the reputation. But it's obvious, they just can't handle it.

 

http://bstore.9tv.co.il/images/2014/02/28/600f3c045115b3056295afae8680c8cb.jpg

‘Death to Jews’ graffiti sprayed on Ukrainian synagogue

Agencies send hel p to Ukraine Jews; synagogue attacked

 

Jewish man stabbed in Kiev in suspected anti-Semitic attack

Kiev Jews alarmed at rising anti-Semitism

Ukraine Nazis: Is America Backing EuroMaidan Extremists?

Police detain around 40 armed raiders trying to rob bank in Kiev

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw

 

 

Do not believe everything the media will gonna tell you, think for yourself. Analyse the facts.

[Cdr.Keen]

Do not believe everything the media will gonna tell you, think for yourself. Analyse the facts.

 

you focus too much at one thing. there is some truth, of course - but you have to get a wider view of the situation. to focus only one fact always will end up with a biased opinion.

[Kitt Frostpaws]

 

Another example of how the media surrounding this is full of lies.

 

I've just kind of learned to accept that main media don't really cover The News they cover "news"

 

They're all about viewing figures over facts, what makes the most attractive headline. Often creating blatant lies just to get them ahead or screw over some other news channels. I mean these are people who run stories about celebrities what they are wearing to the oscars, next to murder, or revolutions dropping off of these subjects after a couple of days because they have ceased to be interesting.

 

The perverse way in which murders and shooters are covered to deify the killer. It's all rather messed up situation. It's why I don't watch the news that much apart from getting a general idea because images and videos get twisted to amplify a certain message and deliberately leave out something incredibly important, which is context. Context is what helps to make you understand the situation the photo or video is capturing.

 

So yeah... there's that.

 

This video about the sandy hook shootings kind of goes into the same topic on the 'deification' of the culprits and how they almost warp them into 'anti-heroic' figures, its a little bit further on in the video but it's worth a look for this kind of thing.

[mikaelkerensky]

So russia finally annexed crimea...

[Aricane]

Yup, they did. And the west just has to accept and swallow the camel. When a nation is capable of achieving its geopolitical goals while noone is able to do anything significant about it, it will do it. Instead of yelling at Russia just accept that it's a big country and does what it wants to, just like the West have been doing for so long.

[Aenye Deithven]

Yup, they did. And the west just has to accept and swallow the camel.

Actually, they should up and take some measures to stop it. Otherwise, this might continue just as in the scenario by Жириновский (pretty much the map from the 13th-14th century):

 

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/zhirinovsky-redraws-map-of-europe/215425.html

 

His first idea (not sure if it got out of Russia though) was to split Ukraine in two - we get everything east of Kiev and Poland gets the rest. Luckily nobody did treat him seriously or so it seeemed - now there's a piece of "the USSR will be rebuilt with Poland and Finland (sic!) following just behind them" propaganda going through the media.

 

The thing that scares me is that if Putin isn't stopped in Ukraine, he might want to take a bite out of another country - this time a NATO/EU member. I don't even want to know how that one would end...

[Artemi]

 

Do not believe everything the media will gonna tell you, think for yourself. Analyse the facts.

 

you focus too much at one thing. there is some truth, of course - but you have to get a wider view of the situation. to focus only one fact always will end up with a biased opinion.

 

 

For now I see some facts, if you can show something different I will gladly focus on something else.

 

 

Maidaners are beating the police in Kiev.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srEM0jjihFU

 

Svoboda members pulling on the director of the first Ukrainian channel to sign off his duty.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHKfJuUvThM

 

Ukraine police interrogation by maidan volunteers.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdjYodKQ6B0

 

A man interrogation by maidan volunteers.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwoZvsF_138

 

An attempted murder of a deputy in Myrhorod, Ukraine, (10:00)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-jjVjajfHw

 

Automaidan activists attempt to racket the Lucoil director.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVnS5Fwz9w8

 

Maidaner is beating the woman near the maidan.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhPk0VxCzbs

[mikaelkerensky]

Yup, they did. And the west just has to accept and swallow the camel.

Actually, they should up and take some measures to stop it. Otherwise, this might continue just as in the scenario by Жириновский (pretty much the map from the 13th-14th century):

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/zhirinovsky-redraws-map-of-europe/215425.html

His first idea (not sure if it got out of Russia though) was to split Ukraine in two - we get everything east of Kiev and Poland gets the rest. Luckily nobody did treat him seriously or so it seeemed - now there's a piece of "the USSR will be rebuilt with Poland and Finland (sic!) following just behind them" propaganda going through the media.

The thing that scares me is that if Putin isn't stopped in Ukraine, he might want to take a bite out of another country - this time a NATO/EU member. I don't even want to know how that one would end...

If Putin decides he has the cojones to try to take a bite out out of Poland I can categorically state that the U.S. will step in and step in hard. We aren't chamberlain in the 1930's, we're just war weary.

[Aricane]

 

Yup, they did. And the west just has to accept and swallow the camel.

Actually, they should up and take some measures to stop it. Otherwise, this might continue just as in the scenario by Жириновский (pretty much the map from the 13th-14th century):

 

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/zhirinovsky-redraws-map-of-europe/215425.html

 

His first idea (not sure if it got out of Russia though) was to split Ukraine in two - we get everything east of Kiev and Poland gets the rest. Luckily nobody did treat him seriously or so it seeemed - now there's a piece of "the USSR will be rebuilt with Poland and Finland (sic!) following just behind them" propaganda going through the media.

 

The thing that scares me is that if Putin isn't stopped in Ukraine, he might want to take a bite out of another country - this time a NATO/EU member. I don't even want to know how that one would end...

 

 

I don't think there'll be any attack on NATO countries, M.A.D. is still active. I think what Putin wants is to make sure that neighbouring countries are not too influenced by the west. Westeren influence have been crawling closer to Russias borders. If Ukraine started negotiating deep political deals with EU, that is regarded as a threat to Russia.

 

What wonders me is the choise of rethoric by Putin. That Crimera was taken from Russia by injustice. But Khrushchev gave it away. The whole fall of USSR was a result of invidual states claiming independance. How can the Duma acknowledge that as wrongful and unjust?

[Aenye Deithven]

I don't think there'll be any attack on NATO countries, M.A.D. is still active. I think what Putin wants is to make sure that neighbouring countries are not too influenced by the west. Westeren influence have been crawling closer to Russias borders. If Ukraine started negotiating deep political deals with EU, that is regarded as a threat to Russia.

 

What wonders me is the choise of rethoric by Putin. That Crimera was taken from Russia by injustice. But Khrushchev gave it away. The whole fall of USSR was a result of invidual states claiming independance. How can the Duma acknowledge that as wrongful and unjust?

There might be no need for an attack - just a "peacekeeping operation" to ensure the safety of our citizens, who are being "oppressed" in let's say Estonia (there is a situation there with over 100 000 ethnically Russian people, who do not have citizenship despite living there for generations - perfect excuse if one ignores the fact that most of those do not even apply for the citizenship) or Poland (small border traffic treaty being "about to be" cancelled, cutting of people from Kalinin). It just needs a few radicals to write up a "please save us" letter...

 

Putin's rhetoric is primarily aimed at the older generation - the ones who continue to see the fall of the USSR as the greatest tragedy in modern history (posted about that earlier) - and those who desire a "strong leader" who will "show them". Hence all the "tough guy" routines he does for the media. There actually was an image that a Polish friend sent me, which smmarises Putin's persona quite nicely:

Caption: Jump from 39 kilometers ? Putin was there with a crane. (any Polish people please verify my translation)

[mikaelkerensky]

Putin is going to keep annexing pieces of countries that were part of the U.S.S.R. prior to it's breakup as long as the rest of the world lets him. It's a tossup as to whether or not obce western countries step in if it will stop him. Seriously, we are headed toward ww3 people!

[123Imirish]

 

I am from Russia.

There is only one thing i want to say: if you really thinks about "war" or about military conflict Russia vs Ukraine - please shutdown your TV and never watch it again! 

Now 21st century and i guess all people understand that TV - lie. 

I don't know where you get this information about "war", but please never say something  if you not sure.

Thanks.

 

It may not be a war yet... YET . then again there is no gay agenda... 60% of Russians think so... Also Russia Today is like a less extreme propaganda than a North Korean tv station, but  I More propaganda is shown on RT  

 

 

 

The thing that scares me is that if Putin isn't stopped in Ukraine, he might want to take a bite out of another country - this time a NATO/EU member. I don't even want to know how that one would end...

If Putin decides he has the cojones to try to take a bite out out of Poland I can categorically state that the U.S. will step in and step in hard. We aren't chamberlain in the 1930's, we're just war weary.

 

Poland, having the highest maths test results in all of Europe, will simply battle kill Putin will their IQ . In these times you keep your friends close, but your Polish friends closer