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Russia - Ukraine


Cdr.Keen

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Damn, look at those Russian invaders, they must be really evil to conquer and "rip off" Crimea from citizen's hands, probably also executing them and burying them into the ground if they ever speak about freedom of speech or democracy.

 

Might sound cynical, but I wouldn't put it past our government to have had these photos prepared long before the events.

 

Russia I know nothing about. It's a huge country, many people. Yet it is as if nothing ever really happens there.

 

I would say that the Iron Curtain has never been raised from my country, well, maybe ever so slightly, thanks to the internet. Even so, the government does have extremely strong information control - virtually anything can (and usually will) be covered up without a trace. On the other hand, some events are blown way out of proportion by the propaganda.

 

To exemplify, after the tragic crash of the Polish presidential plane, a movement appeared, claiming that it was Russia who shot down / bombed / etc. the plane. Last month, a member of that political movement made an ...odd statement about how the crash site should be secured by the Polish military. That got virtually no media coverage in Poland, but we had a week-long news blitz on how bad our western neighbours are... Most people know it's rubbish, but if something is repeated constantly, eventually it will have some impact.

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The only thing he disallows is a homosexual propaganda to kids in schools and gay marriage. 

 

What the fuck is homosexual propaganda?

 

 

Talking about being homosexual.

 

It's worth noting, hate crime towards lesbian and gay people is increasing in russia, as are reported attacks.

 

 

Homophobic crimes exist in every country, unfortunately. As far as I heard (Never really checked for proof though) - in India you may get arrested for being homosexual. Why is nobody making a big fuzz about it aswell? Or is it worth only marking Russian government as evil in western ideology?

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I mean, fair enough, the peninsula was Russian until 1946: it's always been a strategic point and Russia is a lot more qualified to intervene

 

Just to clarify, Хрущев (Khrushchev) gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954.

 

As I said, I didnt research anything I wrote. I also found out that there are neo-fascist elements amongst those who seized power in Kiev so calling them Nazis isn't as ridiculous as I thought it was. Still, its all a bit of a mess, eh?

 

 

Maybe next time It would be a bit smarter to research the topic throughout before jumping in the conversation with a long post and start throwing accusations :P

 

People in Crimea aren't afraid of "their families getting shot and buried over freedom of speech and democracy". They were the ones to call Russia for help, frightened by things that happen over in Kiev. People there were going from house to house, causing mess and brutally torturing/killing people that were a part of a police defense group, "Berkut", defending Yanukovitch and attempting to keep the damn peace. I don't protect or in any way try to justify what Yanukovitch did - but Berkut did not deserve getting themselves burnt to death or killed by a bunch of neo-nazis who killed people left and right, opposition or police.

 

I've seen various pictures on the internet (I do research my stuff before saying it :P) And people there are hugging the Russian army, taking pictures with it, NOBODY is conquering anyone's land. Ukrainian and Russian people have had a "brotherhood" relationship with each other for a long time, if there's ever a reason for armed forces in Crimea, it's because people in it asked for the help.

 

 

If this is really true, it's insane how different the east/west perspectives on it is. In western media Crimea has been invaded by Russia. According to the press and several quoted western experts Crimera is lost to Russia and Ukraine will never get it back. Putin wants Crimera because he and all Russians believe that if people speak Russian, then it's Russian territory. Indeed some western politician compares Putins rethoric with Hitlers, when Hitler started condemning Jews as Putin condemns homosexuals.

 

I think the west needs to accept, that they have no clue on how Russians see things, and just believe that Russia has friendly and peaceful intentions.

 

Here's a sum-up of things that doesn't make sense

  • The west acknowledges the new Ukranian government despite it is technically illegimate. The west holds constitutions very dear, yet apparently not. When the egyptian military couped the Muslim Brotherhood despite they were elected by the people, the west didn't condemn the coup.
  • Putin denies having sent troops to Crimera. The soldiers country marks have been removed. Why is that?
  • Why is the estimated 30.000 troops necessary to maintain peace in Crimera?
  • Why does the EU think it can just send military observators into Crimera, as if EU is elevated beyond the conflict.
  • Why does demonstrators attempting to breach police barricades near the government building in Donetsk wave Russian flags when they should be waving Ukranian flags? This makes the so-called brotherhood between Russia and Ukraine look a bit assumed. It does look a little orchestrated to me.

I'm glad the US has such a "weak" president. Things could escalate very quickly and badly if the previous president was still in office.

 

I think there's a massive canyon between the perspective of things. In our age of technology it would astound me if such a canyon can even exists. Then again. I've sometimes wondered why I never really hear much about what is going on in Russia. I often hear about events and trends from EU and USA, even the Middle East, Afrika and some parts of Asia.

 

Russia I know nothing about. It's a huge country, many people. Yet it is as if nothing ever really happens there.

 

Okay, A few things from these posts that need to be corrected...

- I've seen the videos, the unedited stuff that the has been spread through Facebook and Tumblr and around the net, that never gets to the media, most of it taken by protesters with cell phones. The Berkut were MURDERING PEOPLE and shooting indiscriminately into the crowds of protesters and were calmly dropping molotov cocktails off of rooftops into the crowds below. The Berkut are NOT innocent, the Berkut are MURDERERS (not all of them, but most) and that is the reason the Berkut fled to Crimea, because the people were enraged over what they witnessed and wanted revenge for the people murdered in the square.

-Of course there are pictures with them hugging the soldiers. So far the Russians haven't killed anybody and it's a very wary peace, but lots of men with guns around tends to stifle neighborhood crime, ya know. Plus this is a PR war right now. Russia claims no soldiers in Crimea, and they're bending over backwards to make sure their guys don't do anything that could be considered hostile. (besides, y'know, INVADING A SOVEREIGN NATION)

Yes, Putin can at this moment be compared with Hitler. Let's see...

  • He's invaded a sovereign nation under the guise of ensuring the security of Russian speaking peoples.
  • Apparently Russian soldiers are going around pieces of paper (assumed to be lists of Tatars) marking the houses of the Crimean Tatars with Xs (which is what happened under Stalin when they were given 5 minutes to leave their houses and deported to Uzbekistan and other places).
  • He's sent in between 7,000 and 30,000 Russian VDV, or Airborne, soldiers, having ordered them to remove all identifying patches/insignia/nametapes, and telling the world "They aren't Russians, they bought their top of the line Russian military vehicles at military surplus stores"
  • He's installed a pro-russian puppet in Crimea whose first act was obviously to invite the Russians in.
  • He positioned 150,000, that's 150 THOUSAND soldiers on the border with Ukraine, claiming they were perfectly normal and previously scheduled military exercises.

-"Just believe that Russia has friendly intentions"? Like Chamberlain believed Germany had friendly intentions?

-Okay folks, one more time, THE CURRENT UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT IS NOT ILLEGITIMATE, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL, THE UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT IMPEACHED YANUKOVITCH'S ASS.

-The EU can send observers into Crimea because the current legal government of Ukraine has requested them from as many people as it can get, so that the rest of the world can see that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

-If you never hear about what's going on inside Russia, it's because you haven't looked. There are Russian websites that have English translations. There's the propaganda new service RT, there's the mainstream news coverage of the Russian people pissed off at Putin claiming he rigged the election and then Putin arresting many and cracking down hard on the protesters. etc.

Some general facts about Putin.

-16 years KGB, resigned at rank of LTC.

-Director of the FSB (the new name for the KGB) for 1 year.

-Went from FSB to Prime Minister of Russia

-The president of Russia unexpectedly resigned shortly after, with Putin automatically going from Prime Minister to President, and then signing a law saying Yeltsin wouldn't be prosecuted for corruption. (aka he had dirt on Yeltsin and told him either drop out, or he'd force him out.)

-President of Russia from 2000 to 2008

-In his last days in office he worked to make the majority of the government report to the Prime Minister instead of the President.

-Putin's close friend/puppet Medvedev is elected President, Putin downgrades one step to Prime Minister.

-Prime Minister from 2008 to 2012.

-Russia invades Georgia, wins the war in Georgia without the West lifting so much as a finger.

-Putin's pal Medvedev suggests Putin run for president in 2012, Putin graciously accepts, Putin becomes president in 2012.

If the above happened in the United States, with a cold war CIA director so obviously pulling the strings, we would already have had a second civil war.

Throughout Putin's reign, Russian strategic bombers have been flying missions along the US coast, along Alaska, Along the UK coast, and generally everything they did back during the Cold War.

He's a frakking madman.

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-Russia invades Georgia, wins the war in Georgia without the West lifting so much as a finger.

He's a frakking madman.

 

 

Actually, Georgia invaded Russia (the Georgian president at the time was attempting a blitzkrieg), which backfired, giving our government causus belli to occupy a part of Georgia (Osetia and Abchasia).

 

As for Putin, if he were a madman, we would be currently sifting through the ashes left after World War Three. No, the guy is perfectly sane and quite adept at scheming. He's efficient and gets whatever he wants pretty much all of the time. I would say, that the West continues to underestimate him, the consequences of which are becoming more and more severe...

 

@mikaelkerensky: Good question and one to which I would gladly know the answer. With a large amount of people still grieving for the USSR, I doubt that any major changes will come anytime soon.

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I still maintain that from what i know of history (a great deal for an amateur) we're gearing up for world war 3. Between rising extremism, multiple flashpoints of violence and economic depressions we are rapidly approaching a crossroads that can lead to such a war. At some time in the near future we're going to reach a tipping point where it is inevitable. And just like the last two common people worldwide have no control over these events, despite democracy being a more worldwide phenomena. We're sitting on a powder keg with multiple flames converging on it.

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Okay, A few things from these posts that need to be corrected...

- I've seen the videos, the unedited stuff that the has been spread through Facebook and Tumblr and around the net, that never gets to the media, most of it taken by protesters with cell phones. The Berkut were MURDERING PEOPLE and shooting indiscriminately into the crowds of protesters and were calmly dropping molotov cocktails off of rooftops into the crowds below. The Berkut are NOT innocent, the Berkut are MURDERERS (not all of them, but most) and that is the reason the Berkut fled to Crimea, because the people were enraged over what they witnessed and wanted revenge for the people murdered in the square.

-Of course there are pictures with them hugging the soldiers. So far the Russians haven't killed anybody and it's a very wary peace, but lots of men with guns around tends to stifle neighborhood crime, ya know. Plus this is a PR war right now. Russia claims no soldiers in Crimea, and they're bending over backwards to make sure their guys don't do anything that could be considered hostile. (besides, y'know, INVADING A SOVEREIGN NATION)

Yes, Putin can at this moment be compared with Hitler. Let's see...

  • He's invaded a sovereign nation under the guise of ensuring the security of Russian speaking peoples.
  • Apparently Russian soldiers are going around pieces of paper (assumed to be lists of Tatars) marking the houses of the Crimean Tatars with Xs (which is what happened under Stalin when they were given 5 minutes to leave their houses and deported to Uzbekistan and other places).
  • He's sent in between 7,000 and 30,000 Russian VDV, or Airborne, soldiers, having ordered them to remove all identifying patches/insignia/nametapes, and telling the world "They aren't Russians, they bought their top of the line Russian military vehicles at military surplus stores"
  • He's installed a pro-russian puppet in Crimea whose first act was obviously to invite the Russians in.
  • He positioned 150,000, that's 150 THOUSAND soldiers on the border with Ukraine, claiming they were perfectly normal and previously scheduled military exercises.

-"Just believe that Russia has friendly intentions"? Like Chamberlain believed Germany had friendly intentions?

-Okay folks, one more time, THE CURRENT UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT IS NOT ILLEGITIMATE, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL, THE UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT IMPEACHED YANUKOVITCH'S ASS.

-The EU can send observers into Crimea because the current legal government of Ukraine has requested them from as many people as it can get, so that the rest of the world can see that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

-If you never hear about what's going on inside Russia, it's because you haven't looked. There are Russian websites that have English translations. There's the propaganda new service RT, there's the mainstream news coverage of the Russian people pissed off at Putin claiming he rigged the election and then Putin arresting many and cracking down hard on the protesters. etc.

Some general facts about Putin.

-16 years KGB, resigned at rank of LTC.

-Director of the FSB (the new name for the KGB) for 1 year.

-Went from FSB to Prime Minister of Russia

-The president of Russia unexpectedly resigned shortly after, with Putin automatically going from Prime Minister to President, and then signing a law saying Yeltsin wouldn't be prosecuted for corruption. (aka he had dirt on Yeltsin and told him either drop out, or he'd force him out.)

-President of Russia from 2000 to 2008

-In his last days in office he worked to make the majority of the government report to the Prime Minister instead of the President.

-Putin's close friend/puppet Medvedev is elected President, Putin downgrades one step to Prime Minister.

-Prime Minister from 2008 to 2012.

-Russia invades Georgia, wins the war in Georgia without the West lifting so much as a finger.

-Putin's pal Medvedev suggests Putin run for president in 2012, Putin graciously accepts, Putin becomes president in 2012.

If the above happened in the United States, with a cold war CIA director so obviously pulling the strings, we would already have had a second civil war.

Throughout Putin's reign, Russian strategic bombers have been flying missions along the US coast, along Alaska, Along the UK coast, and generally everything they did back during the Cold War.

He's a frakking madman.

 

 

Noone knows if Yanokovych was rightfully impeached. He cannot be impeached, as far as I know, unless the Constitutional Court finds him guilty of treason or other crime. That process was skipped. 

 

Medvedev was according to him self considering to challenge Putin for the election campaign. He saw he couldn't amass enough support, so he pointed towards Putin.

 

Those answers needs to be backed up by something more than a post, that concludes that Putin is a mad man, which clearly he is not. He is an extremely effective leader.

 

And just while we're at it. I think it would do you good to remind yourself of these small facts

 

It was the U.S. who was caught in the act of spion on USSR using a U-2 spy plane, when the USSR had clearly signaled a will towards peace.

It was the US. who used not only one, but two atomic bombs a foreign country.

The US have engaged and participated in far more wars than the USSR, and yet we regard Putin as the dangerous one.

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The only thing he disallows is a homosexual propaganda to kids in schools and gay marriage. 

 

What the fuck is homosexual propaganda?

 

 

Talking about being homosexual.

 

It's worth noting, hate crime towards lesbian and gay people is increasing in russia, as are reported attacks.

 

 

Homophobic crimes exist in every country, unfortunately. As far as I heard (Never really checked for proof though) - in India you may get arrested for being homosexual. Why is nobody making a big fuzz about it aswell? Or is it worth only marking Russian government as evil in western ideology?

 

 

It's more of a case of Russia is a superpower that has a lot of light cast on them recently and now (Sochi Olympics and what not) that it's not really great. Especially since brushing off the law as "homosexual propaganda" and "gay marriage" isn't quite giving it justice.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#National_laws

 

It's essentially banning any sort of discussion that could be had when it comes to Homosexuality or even admitting that you are Homosexual publicly. While it is true that India does arrest homosexuals, people do make a stink about it. The problem is the UK, Russia, America etc are seen as superpowers that should be leading by example, where as India less so I would say. Russia has also gotten flak for the anti-homosexuality treatment as it was the host of the Winter Olympics and the olympics is supposed to be about diversity and all getting along etc makes it undermine the event somewhat.

 

Besides it doesn't matter if India does or doesn't get more flak for anti-homosexuality, it's a big deal anywhere you go. It's getting more press in Russia due to the reason aboves and the fact that Russia is the centre of media attention right now, where something like this is in the scope of discussion.

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Do you guys assume people are too stupid to go to the original comment or..? It adds a lot of unnecessary scrolling and page stretching.

The forum software simply doesn't support it, and having lots of quotes are useful for support.

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Only reason it concerns me (aside from being interested in geopolitics) is that my government makes it a policy to meddle everywhere and we've been having sour relations with russia for a while. If things get nasty the U.S. might decide to step in, whether I want them to or not.

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Okay, A few things from these posts that need to be corrected...

- I've seen the videos, the unedited stuff that the has been spread through Facebook and Tumblr and around the net, that never gets to the media, most of it taken by protesters with cell phones. The Berkut were MURDERING PEOPLE and shooting indiscriminately into the crowds of protesters and were calmly dropping molotov cocktails off of rooftops into the crowds below. The Berkut are NOT innocent, the Berkut are MURDERERS (not all of them, but most) and that is the reason the Berkut fled to Crimea, because the people were enraged over what they witnessed and wanted revenge for the people murdered in the square.

-Of course there are pictures with them hugging the soldiers. So far the Russians haven't killed anybody and it's a very wary peace, but lots of men with guns around tends to stifle neighborhood crime, ya know. Plus this is a PR war right now. Russia claims no soldiers in Crimea, and they're bending over backwards to make sure their guys don't do anything that could be considered hostile. (besides, y'know, INVADING A SOVEREIGN NATION)

Yes, Putin can at this moment be compared with Hitler. Let's see...

 

 

  • He's invaded a sovereign nation under the guise of ensuring the security of Russian speaking peoples.
  • Apparently Russian soldiers are going around pieces of paper (assumed to be lists of Tatars) marking the houses of the Crimean Tatars with Xs (which is what happened under Stalin when they were given 5 minutes to leave their houses and deported to Uzbekistan and other places).
  • He's sent in between 7,000 and 30,000 Russian VDV, or Airborne, soldiers, having ordered them to remove all identifying patches/insignia/nametapes, and telling the world "They aren't Russians, they bought their top of the line Russian military vehicles at military surplus stores"
  • He's installed a pro-russian puppet in Crimea whose first act was obviously to invite the Russians in.
  • He positioned 150,000, that's 150 THOUSAND soldiers on the border with Ukraine, claiming they were perfectly normal and previously scheduled military exercises.

-"Just believe that Russia has friendly intentions"? Like Chamberlain believed Germany had friendly intentions?

-Okay folks, one more time, THE CURRENT UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT IS NOT ILLEGITIMATE, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL, THE UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT IMPEACHED YANUKOVITCH'S ASS.

-The EU can send observers into Crimea because the current legal government of Ukraine has requested them from as many people as it can get, so that the rest of the world can see that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

-If you never hear about what's going on inside Russia, it's because you haven't looked. There are Russian websites that have English translations. There's the propaganda new service RT, there's the mainstream news coverage of the Russian people pissed off at Putin claiming he rigged the election and then Putin arresting many and cracking down hard on the protesters. etc.

Some general facts about Putin.

-16 years KGB, resigned at rank of LTC.

-Director of the FSB (the new name for the KGB) for 1 year.

-Went from FSB to Prime Minister of Russia

-The president of Russia unexpectedly resigned shortly after, with Putin automatically going from Prime Minister to President, and then signing a law saying Yeltsin wouldn't be prosecuted for corruption. (aka he had dirt on Yeltsin and told him either drop out, or he'd force him out.)

-President of Russia from 2000 to 2008

-In his last days in office he worked to make the majority of the government report to the Prime Minister instead of the President.

-Putin's close friend/puppet Medvedev is elected President, Putin downgrades one step to Prime Minister.

-Prime Minister from 2008 to 2012.

-Russia invades Georgia, wins the war in Georgia without the West lifting so much as a finger.

-Putin's pal Medvedev suggests Putin run for president in 2012, Putin graciously accepts, Putin becomes president in 2012.

If the above happened in the United States, with a cold war CIA director so obviously pulling the strings, we would already have had a second civil war.

Throughout Putin's reign, Russian strategic bombers have been flying missions along the US coast, along Alaska, Along the UK coast, and generally everything they did back during the Cold War.

He's a frakking madman.

 

 

- I could send you THOUSANDS of videos on youtube about Berkut literally standing spine to spine, WITHOUT SHIELDS, as a band of neo-nazis and other "free minded Maidan people" were throwing bricks, rocks and steel chains at berkut. Or videos where they stand by the fence, covering with shields from flying rocks, as a MOLOTOV COCKTAIL was thrown at one of them, setting him on fire. The video that a guy sends from facebook earlier has it unclear if that was actually berkut on the roof or just dressed up Banderascists (neo-nazis), trying to heat up the crowd into the mass killings of police defenses. Those didn't care who to throw molotovs at - police, or normal people. I could send you dozens of videos where PEOPLE were throwing molotovs at police and call all the people on maidan - MURDERERS in caps. Does that make it right for me to judge them like that? No. You have to look at things more objectively - WHO fired first, Opposition or Berkut? Who threw the first molotov? Were there REALLY only two sides in this conflict? Is there a possibility that someone TRIED TO SPARK UP THE MASS HATE by killing innocents, wearing police uniforms?

 

- As said, times and times again, Russia and Ukraine ARE NOT a "foreign countries", our people for decades had a "brotherhood" relationship. I already said it before that Crimea has asked Russia for help against the terrors that are neo nazis are creating. If you go and tell me that there are no neo-nazis involved in this mayhem, you probably don't know that well about this whole matter then, or you were only basing your opinions from reading the western media.

 

- "-"Just believe that Russia has friendly intentions"? Like Chamberlain believed Germany had friendly intentions? " 

 

Oh yeah, let's all remember how all of us defended the "NATO" and their "friendly intentions" of making sure that Russia "does not nuke EU because it's evil" by placing it's missiles on the borders of it. Of course, NATO only does it to ensure that there isn't going to be another war, not because it might want to have a tactical advantage over Russia, whenever a conflict breaks over.

 

- Implying that Putin is the only evil person and the rest of the world's leaders haven't done anything wrong in their carreer.

 

Do I really have to go out of my way and point out what bad things US's LEADERS did in the past? If Putin was as bad as you're coloring him, Russia would be on the point of brink right now, especially after the USSR's fate. As much bad things he have done before (Which, if arguing forever, might end up being justified), he has brought Russia to where it is right now. He surely didn't get drunk and gave out territories to foreign countries just because they let them smack drums. Russia is at the point where it's physically impossible to re-elect and choose another candidate, since there really aren't enough that can compare to him.

 

- About him rigging elections - that whole thing did really happen, but after he was accused of it, he legitimately invited people from all over EU and I think even US to look over legitimacy of the elections, put the cameras all over the place... People also have to realize that Putin isn't Yanukovitch - he will not allow other oligarch parties to create another Maidan in Russia - those "protests" that were about to happen were going to lead up right to that, considering the whole fuss that was going on in media about his "rigged elections". If "Maidan" happened in Russia, do you understand what a collossal freaking crisis it would've brought to Russia? Of course he had to calm the protesters down, even if it took a little more than just a simple word.

 

- The current Ukrainian government is ACTUALLY illegal, as there were no new elections yet. They have no right by constitution to take over Yanukovitch's place, even after he fled the country.

 

- Current Ukrainian government, as stated above, has no right to call for EU's support or people into Crimea.

 

- RUSSIA IS NOT INVADING THE CRIMEA, it's protecting it's people, as was requested, from neo nazis that are doing mass destruction and murdering innocent people.

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I mean, fair enough, the peninsula was Russian until 1946: it's always been a strategic point and Russia is a lot more qualified to intervene

 

Just to clarify, Хрущев (Khrushchev) gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954.

 

As I said, I didnt research anything I wrote. I also found out that there are neo-fascist elements amongst those who seized power in Kiev so calling them Nazis isn't as ridiculous as I thought it was. Still, its all a bit of a mess, eh?

 

 

Maybe next time It would be a bit smarter to research the topic throughout before jumping in the conversation with a long post and start throwing accusations :P

 

People in Crimea aren't afraid of "their families getting shot and buried over freedom of speech and democracy". They were the ones to call Russia for help, frightened by things that happen over in Kiev. People there were going from house to house, causing mess and brutally torturing/killing people that were a part of a police defense group, "Berkut", defending Yanukovitch and attempting to keep the damn peace. I don't protect or in any way try to justify what Yanukovitch did - but Berkut did not deserve getting themselves burnt to death or killed by a bunch of neo-nazis who killed people left and right, opposition or police.

 

I've seen various pictures on the internet (I do research my stuff before saying it :P) And people there are hugging the Russian army, taking pictures with it, NOBODY is conquering anyone's land. Ukrainian and Russian people have had a "brotherhood" relationship with each other for a long time, if there's ever a reason for armed forces in Crimea, it's because people in it asked for the help.

 

Yeah dude, I originally intended to make a general point about media bias and the art of spindoctoring and propaganda but it kinda got out of hand. Didn't really want to go into the actual politics and events cos I do not trust the way it is being reported here in europe. And I would be a lot more wary about what media outlets in America or Russia are telling people. So yeah, that leaves the internet; perhaps not the most credible source of information ever invented. 

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Didn't really want to go into the actual politics and events cos I do not trust the way it is being reported here in europe. And I would be a lot more wary about what media outlets in America or Russia are telling people.

 

Every information provider has their agenda, even if they do not realise it (vide some internet "independent" sources). Sure, taking a plethora of snippets into account, one can attempt a painstaking comparison between them and extract some marginally biased version of the story, which may even be true ...at some point. In my humblest opinion, the actual facts tend to get discarded quite early on and the "truth" becomes whatever the majority thinks happened. The minority of doubters will of course remaiin. Depending on how minor is the minority, it may be labelled (sometimes deservingly so) as lunatics or may be considered a viable alternative explanation.

 

To exemplify let's take the moon landing and the last (to date) Balkan war. The former is obvious - the lander hit the moon, period. The latter case is not so straightforward, as sources keep arguing, even when it comes to such (seemingly) basic questions as "who fought who ?".

 

Even a simple matter becomes murky once we cake on conflicting propaganda, information control, false flag operatons, etc. and factor in the "we're the good guys" thinking of each and every nation. We all know the "Billy hit Betty ?" (or whatever names get inserted) example,..

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^^ Exactly. I agree with you Aenye; It is up to each individual to sift through both sides of the arguments in order to verify what is actually going on, not just go with what they are being told.

 

For me the situation is interesting just because of the theatrical behavious of the Russian military. So The Crimea has not been invaded by Russia because a) the Russian soldiers are not carrying any insignia and b) the Crimeans love the Russians so much that even if there was an invasion, which we are told there isn't, they would be welcomed with open arms anyways?

 

So why not dispense with the charade and just put some Russian peace keeping forces in the region? Is it because the Russians would then be breeching the stipulations of the Budapest Memorandum? Possibly. In any case I am sure that if they had declared that they were acting with transparancy and with right intentions, noone would condemn them for wanting to protect innocent civilians from the turmoils of civil unrest. Instead the Russian government maintain this barefaced lie that 30,000 well armed, well equipped and well organized 'local defense militias' with access to Russian military hardware have sprung up and are securing strategic military targets.

 

From an independent viewpoint, its a pretty suspicious move from Putin and I am not the only one to think so.

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Imt not defending my government, in fact i agree that the u.s. has been far too aggressive since w.w. 2. But if things continue this way we're going to cold war mark 2.

 

And we totally need another one of those. Hell, things almost went south last time, and I REALLY don't want to see it hit the fan in the events of another Cold War. So hopefully there's some sort of solution to this that doesn't require violence to any degree, but that's insanely wishful thinking.

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