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Damano

Please come back to this idea

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Because it doesn’t work fine.


It looks like a house was constructed 1 level above the ground, meaning zombies spawn below and there’s now 1 less z level. Likewise teleporting the player to a second map would have its own problems, as well as stacking two maps onto one another, from not being able to see above or below the map to doubling save/loads.

 

To do it right would mean going back over a huge map and populate the underground or fix / somehow optimize rendering to handle more than 8 levels, then removing all the hard coded elements (like zombie spawn) and possibly changing the assumptions made when programming ai.

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Posted (edited)

To be honest, and sorry if it comes out harsh, it doesn't look like such a huge undertaking as you imply.

One underground level would be enough to represent most interesting situations (no need to go down 15 levels, even if it would be cool,  etc etc). This would require the engine to work with a total of 9 levels which I doubt would pose performance/memory issues.

Most references to "floor level #0" could be replaced with "floor level #1" using scripts, and in my experience "hard coded implicit assumptions" are just time bombs that should be addressed regardless.

The same can be said about the map, where of course there should be additions, which could be limited to the more densely populated areas

 An effort, yes, but not useless in that it would improve gameplay (probably more than that next neighborhood of Louisville).

I may be wrong, and I'm not saying it should be the highest priority task to work on: far from it. However I strongly feel that it would be a bad decision to scrap "all things underground" from this game.

Edited by numbersixthecat
typo

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You  are wrong. It’s not remotely that simple when you look at the game’s rendering code.  There’s an awful lot of gotchas buried in the game because it was never met to work with negative z values or render anything above 7 (inclusively). To put it in perspective. Sewers were floated some 7-8 years ago — yet an awful lot of changes happened since, all building on top that assumption.

 

Thats why my half-assed approach years ago involved procedurally lifting the entire map then followed up with  stacking maps on top of one another. Both had their flaws.

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Posted (edited)

Ok then, I stand corrected. It's bad news though. Also you might want to update the common suggestions thread: if I'm not mistaken underground levels are indicated as a "confirmed yes". Thanks for clarifying.

 

Edit: it's the 4th last "yes" suggestion. Just checked.

Edited by numbersixthecat
checked common suggestion thread

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Posted (edited)

I will say about this that, despite some devs recently confirming that they aren't being worked on, that a lot of people are convinced that underground levels are a confirmed forthcoming features.

Really, that could be on people for not being more critical about what they hear and see to a large degree, but there seems to be a lot of misinformation about this going around.

Edited by Planet Algol
added recently

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7 hours ago, Planet Algol said:

some devs recently confirming that they aren't being worked on, that a lot of people are convinced that underground levels are a confirmed forthcoming features.

 

Where? When? This is one little stupid thing that I find intriguing so I was following it and never heard any official news. That is, outside the "tentative/confirmed yes/no" of the suggestion thread.

I agree on the relatively lacking of critical thinking (and often just lack of reading comprehension) by some. On the other hand, given what has happened in the past over hyped features, I cannot really blame the devs for not setting things in stone until they are really certain about feasibility.

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I was looking for that video, thanks! Thanks for elaborating on technicalities as well :).

 

I also remember different Z-levels being mentioned, was it the same mondoid back then?

 

Then there was a stealth video from ages ago that's now incorportated into build 41, anyone have the link though? I'd love to compare how much it changed :)

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Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2020 at 10:42 PM, EnigmaGrey said:

Because it doesn’t work fine.


It looks like a house was constructed 1 level above the ground, meaning zombies spawn below and there’s now 1 less z level. Likewise teleporting the player to a second map would have its own problems, as well as stacking two maps onto one another, from not being able to see above or below the map to doubling save/loads.

 

To do it right would mean going back over a huge map and populate the underground or fix / somehow optimize rendering to handle more than 8 levels, then removing all the hard coded elements (like zombie spawn) and possibly changing the assumptions made when programming ai.

So can we forget about it? and this will never happen? ((

Edited by Damano

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This code was on the 'Creative' branch which made it possible with some significant changes to how the map worked for the Creative mode. However that branch, due to anims and npc pressure of focus from community anticipation didn't get any time put into it and has spent years going stale with years old code.

 

The prospect of merging in creative at this point would be an act of madness since the code has diverged so much, so this stuff would sadly need retransplanting at the point on a fresh branch, 'started from scratch with the advantage of the old code for reference' when we started working on it again.

 

As such this stuff could never have been released as it was entwined in the creative branch which required a ton more work and had no time for it.

 

It could potentially be done again in future, but the video you see does not represent anything usable at this point.

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3 hours ago, lemmy101 said:

This code was on the 'Creative' branch

 

I know this isn't the topic being discussed but it felt better writing here than starting a new thread; is Creative mode a feature you guys still intend to look at? Don't need a definitive answer or a timescale. Just a yes or no will suffice.

 

If so, obviously it'll be way down the line once more pressing matters have been attended to. Not gonna lie, it looked dope at the time though. Being able to work on a map whilst in the game would help so much with scale and distance between areas, something I've struggled with when making my own map. That and if you were able to work together and build in multiplayer (I'm pretty sure that was mentioned at the time, might have pulled that out of thin air) was something I was also buzzing over. However, I fully appriciate its been a long time since Creative mode was on the table.

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This doesn't address the current issue: We don't have a plan to deal with underground levels. These are a real-life thing, and should absolutely be considered. 

People are going to want to recreate a ton of their cities once the game is released. Seven floors is not enough. It creates artificial limits in terms of "why can't I?" followed by a response of "The Devs didn't make it that way" to which there is no other response than "that sucks!".

I will not mind if this was the "Oh we will address this issue once NPCs are done and out" kind of issue, because I believe there is a ton of dividends that aren't exactly tied to the game directly, such as the ability for modders to spend time making Chicago for Multiplayer servers, causing people to want to join up and buy Zomboid. That's why "After 1.0" should definitely be a thing.

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8 hours ago, Damien Darkside said:

This doesn't address the current issue: We don't have a plan to deal with underground levels. These are a real-life thing, and should absolutely be considered. 

People are going to want to recreate a ton of their cities once the game is released. Seven floors is not enough. It creates artificial limits in terms of "why can't I?" followed by a response of "The Devs didn't make it that way" to which there is no other response than "that sucks!".

I will not mind if this was the "Oh we will address this issue once NPCs are done and out" kind of issue, because I believe there is a ton of dividends that aren't exactly tied to the game directly, such as the ability for modders to spend time making Chicago for Multiplayer servers, causing people to want to join up and buy Zomboid. That's why "After 1.0" should definitely be a thing.

Is this still about the game or the fact that everything we do in life has limits, including the programs we write ...

 

For now, underground levels are very unlikely to happen, as are levels above 8 floors. One is due to the way the game engine is build; the other is due to the exponential performance hit trying sort and draw 8 levels presents, without even getting into the overlap of buildings and the ground due to the camera angle. The latter doesn’t have any practical benefit aside from scratching that itch for ... fighting down through a copy+paste skyscraper, I guess?

 

Post 1.0 could be anything.

 

 

 

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Limits in programming are completely different from the limits of life. Limits in programming come from failing to plan. Plain as that.

 

That being said, in the long run it won't drastically impact the game but it's still disappointing that we WON'T be able to build rooftop gardens simply because it doesn't do more layers. Plus it isn't just Copy/Paste, it's people spending the time to make something like Bedford Falls, the map I'm looking at with several districts that could definitely benefit from several more floors, or a few of the buildings having roof access.

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1 hour ago, Damien Darkside said:

Limits in programming are completely different from the limits of life. Limits in programming come from failing to plan. Plain as that.

 

That being said, in the long run it won't drastically impact the game but it's still disappointing that we WON'T be able to build rooftop gardens simply because it doesn't do more layers. Plus it isn't just Copy/Paste, it's people spending the time to make something like Bedford Falls, the map I'm looking at with several districts that could definitely benefit from several more floors, or a few of the buildings having roof access.

That is a very idealistic way  to view programming.

 

Why doesn’t your failure to plan philosophy translate to mod authors, whom also failed to plan fit your desire for a rooftop garden, years after the fact?

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Do not assume I have an idealistic view of programming, I know very much what the limitations are. The base idea of having only 8 level or not planning for underground areas is completely fault of the devs. The problem isn't "rooftop garden" it's "Why did you stop at 8" or simply "why do you even have a system like this in the first place?". If it's about drawing and rendering, then it's a problem if how the entire thing was setup in the first place. Period.

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1 hour ago, Damien Darkside said:

Do not assume I have an idealistic view of programming, I know very much what the limitations are. The base idea of having only 8 level or not planning for underground areas is completely fault of the devs. The problem isn't "rooftop garden" it's "Why did you stop at 8" or simply "why do you even have a system like this in the first place?". If it's about drawing and rendering, then it's a problem if how the entire thing was setup in the first place. Period.

 

Yes yes, programmers running into problems caused by code decisions and millions of lines of incredibly complex code they wrote half a decade ago. *thats* not a thing. /s

 

You've had your answer, from one of the game engine devs as well. If the devs get the time to go back into the code and utterly break the game engine, and the way maps are stored, to fix it, they might, but it's not a priority for them at the moment.

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3 hours ago, Damien Darkside said:

Do not assume I have an idealistic view of programming, I know very much what the limitations are. The base idea of having only 8 level or not planning for underground areas is completely fault of the devs. The problem isn't "rooftop garden" it's "Why did you stop at 8" or simply "why do you even have a system like this in the first place?". If it's about drawing and rendering, then it's a problem if how the entire thing was setup in the first place. Period.

 

If one focuses totally on crafting the perfect all-encompassing design, then no work would ever get done.  Now stretch that imperfect design over 9 years and you’ll find plenty of faults in it; heaps of code debt that prevents you from doing “simple” things.
 

That is, what you said is obvious and I don’t get how basically repeating it back, but in an accusatory sounding way either will result in a satisfying answer or invalidate my assumption.

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On 5/27/2020 at 12:27 AM, OffitMan said:

 

I know this isn't the topic being discussed but it felt better writing here than starting a new thread; is Creative mode a feature you guys still intend to look at? Don't need a definitive answer or a timescale. Just a yes or no will suffice.

 

It's something we're not actively promising, and certainly not pre-1.0, but its very much something we still want to do.

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22 hours ago, lemmy101 said:

 

It's something we're not actively promising, and certainly not pre-1.0, but its very much something we still want to do.

 

Thats good enough for me. Thanks for replying man!

 

I've played around in TileZed for a few years as I've always wanted to create my hometown but never really been that consistant. Since I've been furloughed however, the last few weeks have been pretty productive. I'll upload something on here in a few days.

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