Zombie spawning might need some work

[willow512]

But i'm still very maddened by how zombies are currently working. I played in sandbox mode with low zombie density. After 3 days, there are about 500+ zombies within an ingame 1/4 mile radius of my base and nearby storage house. This lead to my death because this new zombie walking seems a little broken atm. Seems like they just walk at your position instead of randomly and the very few map sounds don't really lead them away anymore. I mean I miss the big group of a hoard all grouped together not really moving since no food was to be found, where you could at least use strategy and sound to lead them out of your way. Currently these 500+ zombies are spread out and there is just no possible way to kill them all, lead them away from my base, or anything else. Very maddening. I appreciate all the work you do but can you explain why I have 500+ zombies in such a cluster fook in a low zombie density setting? Would very much like to know if this is a bug in settings, AI, pathfinding, etc. 

I kinda agree with this, it seems that wherever you are zombies just begin to eventually spawn. I could be wrong but the meta game events seem spread around the player, which causes any meta game event to draw zombies into your area. 

 

If you go to the western farm, and stay there minding your own business, farming crops and building walls, then the odds of a large horde arriving should be minimal. It could have course happen. But it should be rare. Right now it seems that wherever you settle, a big horde will arrive on your doorstep in a few days.

 

The spawning is also a little off. I even had a zombie spawn inside my fence once, I was gardning with my back turned to a blind fence that surrounded a very small and uncluttered area, then suddenly a zombie appeared behind me. Even Ezio Auditore could not have repeated that feat. Great way to keep me on my toes. But not as realistic as I'd hope. If a zombie is inside my walls, I expect the barrier to be broken.

Ok so I posted this to the forum, went to bed in the northern farm, not a zombie in sight. The next morning I wake up, save, reload, brush my teeth, look out over my new porch and shat my pants.

 

I don't understand why they're there or have any idea on how to get rid of them. I've heard no gunshots or other meta game events, and even if I had, I'd figure I'd be out of earshot. Maybe 2 or three would show up but that would be it. The area was deserted, I walked around to be sure.

 

I arrived at the farm two days before the screenshot. I wanted to build a fortress here and go for a long term self sufficiency game staying away from the town and just laying low, trying to finally get some seeds to grow. The day before I chopped some wood and broke the door to the hen house because there was one of those deadheads hiding in there. I also planted some seeds and watered them.

 

I'm posting this in bugs, to hopefully raise this functionality to bug status, because I very much doubt that just planting 100 zombies in formation in the players backyard is intended. I'm sure there are better ways of doing it. If it were the first time I'd see this I'd consider it a fluke, but it isn't, this happens a lot (See quoted post). And to be honest, it ruined this game for me. I could roll with the punches and go someplace else. But I keep doing that, the game before this one the same thing happened, I wanted to try my hands at base building. But I'm pretty sure that if I go someplace else and start building in just a few days I'll find a horde parked outside in a similar fashion.

 

 

[willow512]

The slowdown would come when loading chunks as the game would have to populate each zombie one at a time in an exact location.

People already struggle with chunks loading fast enough, I highly doubt the game could keep up with 100x the normal zombie processes when loading a chunk.

Actually, I'm afraid that right now you get the price for instantiation for every zombie anyway, whether you take it from an aggregated zombie or from a real stored zombie would make very little difference. The game would use more memory, but would not be slower because of it.

 

Working with 100 thousand simple records is not an issue for java. The price really is in the instantiation and simulation of the zombies, not in their memory storage and access. Getting them on screen is a thousand times more cpu and memory intensive than simply storing the coordinates.

 

I'm not sure how many zombies we're talking about here. But if you store only x,y coordinates per zombie  and you have 100 thousand zombies I doubt you'd hit 4 megabyte of ram. And that's a very broad guess, you could probably fit the zombies visuals, and direction into that same memory.

 

We're talking modern computers here. Juggling those amounts of data is peanuts. Even if you had a million zombies in the game you could probably squeeze them into 64mb. And even the 32 bit version of zomboid has at least 1.5gb of memory available to it. So the storage isn't the problem, trying to simulating them all, including pathfinding and visuals would instagib your performance. But that's an entirely different story

[Jjoncm1]

Thank you lemmy for the developer input we have been seeking and I'm glad it hear it is a priority on your list! This is definitely a area that needs some tweaking. May I ask if the settings in sandbox mode (zombie density option) are going to get fixed along with this? I've heard that the options are bugged. At low zombie density there are hundreds if not a couple thousand still scattered throughout the sections of the map I've explored (probably only about half). Appreciate all the work you guys do!

[Rathlord]

@ willow, that would be true except that when putting the zombies onto the field right now it only accesses one variable- the central location for the block to spawn. If you changed it, it would have to call 1 extra variable for every zed in the horde. You're right that the storage isn't an issue- that's not what I was saying. It's the extra 100 integers the game would have to call while putting them out that would big things down.

JJ I can confirm that they know about the options not saving and it's been mentioned internally, so I'm sure it's on the list, too.

[drNovikov]

We're talking modern computers here. Juggling those amounts of data is peanuts. Even if you had a million zombies in the game you could probably squeeze them into 64mb. And even the 32 bit version of zomboid has at least 1.5gb of memory available to it. So the storage isn't the problem, trying to simulating them all, including pathfinding and visuals would instagib your performance. But that's an entirely different story

 

I absolutely agree. I think that would be much better to just store cordinates instead of un-virtualizing a big horde. Also, I suspect there is a bug in the un-virtualizing procedure, because it spawns hordes in almost clean peaces of map.

[Zyfer]

Saw a dev saying that he didnt see many people reporting about this problem so here i am.

 

I kinda took a break from project zomboid because of this, it was actually at the same place as OP's picture, the place with the barn and everything and its very far out, i thought it was an already known issue so i never voiced up about it.

 

Hope to be back soon, i'm missing it

[EnigmaGrey]

 

We're talking modern computers here. Juggling those amounts of data is peanuts. Even if you had a million zombies in the game you could probably squeeze them into 64mb. And even the 32 bit version of zomboid has at least 1.5gb of memory available to it. So the storage isn't the problem, trying to simulating them all, including pathfinding and visuals would instagib your performance. But that's an entirely different story

 

I absolutely agree. I think that would be much better to just store cordinates instead of un-virtualizing a big horde. Also, I suspect there is a bug in the un-virtualizing procedure, because it spawns hordes in almost clean peaces of map.

 

Yet, when that was done back in 1.4c and 1.5d, performance sank.

We're going over ancient history here . . .

There's always going to be a need for extrapolation in a system like this -- particularly with a cranky garbage collector that can't confine itself to a 16 ms hop, skip, and a jump.

[RoboMat]

I wish I knew enough about Java to tell the devs how they should program their game ... ah well.

[lemmy101]

I appreciate people are trying to help, but if you could dispense with the backseat coding though it would be much appreciated. unless you're the coder of a sandbox game more complex than ours, please give me benefit of the doubt that if there's some solution to getting the zombie to behave perhaps someone fully aware of the entire codebase and a decade in the industry is likely to have considered similar to any of your solutions in about 2 years of changes, rewrites and re-imaginings, and may know reasons why a 'surely its as simple as' is not going to work.

 

Comments that 'computers are so fast nowadays' are pretty useless when we're trying to cling onto low spec customers as much as we can. And if you think the game isn't doing a scary amount of processing already (in java, no less) that we aren't looking for every conceivable way to speed up the game, not add extra strain to it.

 

Problems with zombies are due to bugs. It's not some coding or design issue. The system in there should work perfectly, and if it doesn't then it's a line of code somewhere misbehaving.

[Rathlord]

Essentially what I was trying to say XD

[Jjoncm1]

Comical how a big fuss was made over how this wasn't a bug, only a couple people have mentioned it, everything was 'working as intended', and made it get moved to general discussion only to have multiple more people complain about the issue and the developer say it is indeed do to bugs. Oh what irony  , keep up the good work lemmy/devs.

[Rathlord]

I don't find it comical at all. For one thing, I never said it wasn't bugged, I said we needed more evidence. For another, Lemmy never said it was actually a bug, he said there COULD be a bug.

 

Edit: And really, he pretty specifically said EXACTLY what I'd been saying the entire time, which was that this is exactly how the system works right now, and while it may not be the best behavior it is indeed intended.

 

 

Right so:

 

2) This is how the system works.

 

This is how it works

[k12314]

Frankly I don't give a flying monkey fuck about how the devs make this stuff work, as long as it is fluid, believable, and doesn't rape my computer with the power of a rhinoceros. They'll get it there eventually, this is only an Alpha/Beta/etc. and it still needs work. We should just be thankful that the game works as well as it does now, and that the devs are working so hard.

[Jjoncm1]

 

I don't find it comical at all. For one thing, I never said it wasn't bugged, I said we needed more evidence. For another, Lemmy never said it was actually a bug, he said there COULD be a bug.

 

Edit: And really, he pretty specifically said EXACTLY what I'd been saying the entire time, which was that this is exactly how the system works right now, and while it may not be the best behavior it is indeed intended.

 

 

Problems with zombies are due to bugs. It's not some coding or design issue. The system in there should work perfectly, and if it doesn't then it's a line of code somewhere misbehaving.

Bit mad, spent around 5 hours upgrading a character only to have my base attacked again after a week (got attacked at day 4 but managed to drive them off with pistol shots). Killed 500 zombies and still had around 700 (5ish different hordes) raping my base and inside the fences. Will come back to the game once this is fixed and I can finally enjoy the game a bit without endless PvE zombies. Will check back frequently in the next couple weeks, see you then mates.

[willow512]

@ willow, that would be true except that when putting the zombies onto the field right now it only accesses one variable- the central location for the block to spawn. If you changed it, it would have to call 1 extra variable for every zed in the horde. You're right that the storage isn't an issue- that's not what I was saying. It's the extra 100 integers the game would have to call while putting them out that would big things down.o.

You're basically saying recalling 100 integers from memory is more expensive than (At the very least) doing 100 calls to one variable (Stored in memory, where else?) and 100 calls to a random method(Unless you see them piled into the exact same coordinate) and then 100 subtractions to combine the two. (Which of the two sounds more expensive to you?)

 

I respect you and love you as a fellow human being Rath. You're no code monkey though.

Memory recall always beats procedural generation in speed.

 

I'm going to bow out of this conversation now. I think you're all awesome people and I don't want to get bogged down in a duel of egos. I know from experience my ego needs to be on a tight leash. I opt to have many enjoyable interactions with you all in the future instead. Far be it for me to tell others what to do, I do humbly suggest everyone else to consider the option.

 

Lemmy made it clear he doesn't appreciate backseat coders. And I get that. I wouldn't enjoy that in his position either. His promise to get to the bottom of it is good enough for me! I'm sure the method he described will lead to an enjoyable game experience once the bugs are all worked out. And I for one can't wait to see his plans to come to fruition. The suggestions drNovikov and I have made would probably work as well. But in the end lemmy has to build it, so Lemmy has to decide how to build it.

[Swagger]

I am just pleased that the behaviour I reported and documented might have been some use to the development team somehow 

[Shivster]

Here is a example of what happens to me all the time. no meta event, no noise, no nothing.

 

http://youtu.be/XCmnh4Kq6SY?t=9m01s

 

notice that when he walks out the door nothing then 5 secs later huge horde. granted this was in a build a month old but it still happens to me every time i play the newest build on a daily bases.

 

I know this seems like it isn't a big issue but in fact it makes the game almost unplayable for me. The bugs that really have me not playing at the moment is the floor tile Teleportation bug. And the Zombies spawning in my walled off area bug.

[Rathlord]

Ya, I mean that does look like Lemmy described. The chunk got streamed into data as he moved away from it and went to the other house, and when he came back all of the zombies from the area were plopped back into the chunk (but centralized). Lemmy says they'll be looking over the zombie spawning soon, so we should see some improvements before too long =D

[Maderas]

New player here, just bought the game yesterday. Having a lot of fun with it so far but I've run into this problem as well. As a matter of fact, pretty much every game I run into this problem; I initially attributed it to my being too eager to go out and explore, but the past four sessions in a row I've concentrated on sticking to whatever house I start in and looting only the immediate environs for sheets, etc. as quietly as possible. No window smashing, no zombie kills (if at all possible), no running. Thus far I'm 4/4 on winding up surrounded by two or more hordes by day three. The last playthrough I thought I was finally going to make a go of it, wasn't really any activity around me... went inside to store some stuff in the fridge, resorted my bags, went outside five minutes later and there were THREE hordes camped around the house in square formations.

 

Having read this post I suspect it's an issue with the newest Steam beta update, as I played without it yesterday and didn't have this issue. Ever since I downloaded it this morning, however, it's been constant.

[Rathlord]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Maderas! Hopefully we should have this sorted soon! In the mean time, I suggest a lot of wandering.

 

I also noted that if you go to the trailer house that's by itself way to the right (northeast) by itself, you're pretty safe there. I played a game near there for almost a month of play time and I never saw a single zombie in the area.

[Shivster]

Ya, I mean that does look like Lemmy described. The chunk got streamed into data as he moved away from it and went to the other house, and when he came back all of the zombies from the area were plopped back into the chunk (but centralized). Lemmy says they'll be looking over the zombie spawning soon, so we should see some improvements before too long =D

 yep lemmy has it nailed down. He says he will look into it when he can and thats good enough for me. Looking back at my post I may have come off as mad. I am far from mad Just a little frustrated. I will adapt and continue to play after a few day vacation to clear my head and adjust my play style.

[Maderas]

I realize the devs have said they're working on this, but just posting some more observations because I thought it was kind of funny.

 

Lately I've taken to using the white two story house at the north end of town as my safehouse (with the picket fence around it). For whatever reason the game loves to plop hordes all around it. My current playthrough I was lucky enough to have found a couple shotguns and around 80 rounds of ammunition, so I decided to lure the horde away before I began barricading. Started shooting them up, leading them east into the woods and away from my safehouse, hoping all the gunshots would attract any undead in the area... ended up expending about half my ammo and killing over 200 zombies. Looped around the horde, cut south and did a wide circle through town back to my safehouse, then went and checked the field north of it where the original horde was milling around... only to find three fresh hordes sitting there. Looks like I'll be taking my chances.

 

Also, I've gotten in the habit of spinning in circles while I sneak after a zombie snuck up on my last character and bit him in the ass while he was tired. I've noticed that sometimes you can actually see the horde being teleported after you in the square formation when you do this, just at the end of the screen.

 

Rathlord, are you talking about the trailer between the two subdivisions at the very right corner of the map? I'm tempted to load up as many nails and seeds as I can carry and strike off into the hinterlands, because the town is completely overrun in my current game and it's only day five or six.

[Rathlord]

I don't use any kind of map for PZ since I find the game more fun that way, but that does sound like the place.

[PombeGeek]

 

 

Also, I've gotten in the habit of spinning in circles while I sneak after a zombie snuck up on my last character and bit him in the ass while he was tired. I've noticed that sometimes you can actually see the horde being teleported after you in the square formation when you do this, just at the end of the screen.

 

 

Actually witnessed a horde teleport into the yard around my safehouse (the house in the southeast with the high, impassable fence. One minute, inside the fence borders clear of zombies, make another lap around the inside and suddenly there was a horde INSIDE the fence borders. Fence had not been knocked down, and they didn't come from the entrance, just magically teleported into the area when my back was turned. Needless to say, poor Jonny Noshoes didn't last much longer.

[Luke159]

I'm new to the forum and the game, so have many questions, but one question that's really bugging me is zombie spawn rates. How does killing zombies effect spawn rates?

 

1. Does killing zombie's increase the amount spawned?

2. Can you actually clear an area out and never have zombie's spawn there again? (only those you lure there or follow the sound of gun shots etc)

3. In game start menu you can set it so you have none, few etc zombie's, does none mean no zombie's are spawned only those that start on the map or no zombies ever?

 

[Grogmonster]

1.I don't think that the number of zombies that you kill effect the spawn rates.

2. zombies will always spawn back even if you kill every single one of them.

3. If you go to sandbox you can change the zombie density to what ever you want.