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Kelefane

I hate the new movement.

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Especially turning. It's too sluggish and slow and unrealistic and feels heavy when you turn now.  You can't turn on a dime anymore (which is realistic) - I thought this game was built on realism. 

 

I hope this gets changed before it goes live or expect a shitstorm from many fans. Which already seems to be happening over on the Steam forum.

Edited by Kelefane

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I thought the same at first. Now I'm a couple hours in and already got used to it. The only thing annoying me is the extra step that happens if you try to turn (via sneak / weapon ready) while running.

Also the mouse cursor needs improvement, but that's it from me.

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Seems what we have here is a degree of abandonment of function in favor of cosmetic flare..

 

I have no issue with making the game harder by way of re-balancing combat, and making zombies more grabby like zombies are. I don't even have an issue with making the character a bit more sluggish and weighted to give fitness and nimble traits something to offset... This way., we can strive for our characters to not be a lard-ass so we can properly evade death...  That's all great in fact...

 

But when the game becomes more difficult in terms of menial things, it truly becomes a chore...  In ALL these years of playing Project Zomboid :

It's never been more difficult to flip a light switch

It's never been more difficult to loot items from multiple containers.

It's never been more difficult to get into a vehicle door quickly.

It's never been more difficult to go through the door you want to, when there are no walls to funnel you in.

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but in real life, I can manage somehow to enter doorways perfectly in the center without dragging myself against the wall and door frame to make it through..  I can even do it while running!!! So to call it in the name of realism is just not.

 

Here's the thing.... in playing this game, I've never had to strife into position at a slow creep to manipulate objects...  It's always been simply tap the directional controller until you're in the square, and then face it..... do what you gotta do and move on...  Well now, if you tap the controller the wrong way, you pull a 3-G-Force-ice skating-style sweeping maneuver that takes you juuuuust out of reach of that light switch... So you do this 3-4 times being absolutely careful NOT TO LOOK AROUND or you might accelerate out of control again and miss the light switch again...  Even if you don't have to move the character, when you manipulate the object it takes you on autopilot now closing inventory windows... But its not so much the closing of the windows, as the feeling that the character is doing something you did not explicitly direct them to do....

 

The weight system would work just fine if all the involuntary movements were removed... With them in place now, to reliably manipulate objects, we must aim at them.... and strife into position all the while maintaining perfect tunnel vision making us completely unaware of the zombie 3 feet away... it simply should not require such concentration to flip a switch... Combat with zombies, yes.... all day long..... but not to do simple repetitive things...  This game is probably +50% looting, so to make this task a chore is a step in the wrong direction...

 

It shouldn't feel like trying to land yourself like a plane fighting cross winds to get to that light switch... If you can see the inventory, you should be able to take and place items without the character going off on auto-pilot to find a better spot than your silly human input could accomplish...

 

Truth is....  The update is outstanding.... So many items... Options... new things to do and looks for.... Couldn't have expanded the depth in a more satisfying way.... it's like a grand easter egg hunt as big as the map is now...

 

But I truly hope the centrifugal G-Force U-Turning and auto-piloting gets removed for sanity sake... I feel that immersion is a balance of difficulty - realism - depth - to some extent steps to get things done and the time and resources it takes to do or make things....

 

But we've lost a part of the immersion when we forfeit control of the character... It ought to feel intuitive, responsive, and precise... And as it stands today, it does not.

 

 

 

 

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I think it is important to differentiate the input devices. From the post above I can read out that he is playing with a gamepad. Personally I only use mouse and keyboard, so my experience is completely different.

Edited by Lexx2k

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2 hours ago, Burger_Time said:

Idk what's the problem with it. I got used to it real fast and it's not that bad. There are problems, yes, but devs are already aware of them.

 

2 hours ago, Pandorea said:

Time and again: controllers were not looked at for this test build. That update will come in due time.

 

Hey fellas, constructive discussion isn't all sunshine and unicorns, it goes both ways. My post above is exactly what the popup tells me to do every time I load up the game... It says to get on here and let em know what I think. Sure, there's a little sarcasm in there, but for the most part, its descriptive, and contains both positive and negative feedback, along with supporting examples of actual game play situations...

 

I'm not focusing completely on the controller issue... and yes I know they know. So I've been trying to play the game with as little aiming as possible, navigating without using the aim analog stick to evaluate basic navigation in relation to the new weighted system... My issue is with the automatic non-input initiated auto-navigation (actual non-intuitive moving) of the character in certain instances... This has nothing to do with mapping buttons or setting up a controller to use the new selective targeting system... or fixing the inability to sprint issue... And yes, I know those will be addressed in due time... But I think you miss my point.

 

2 hours ago, Lexx2k said:

I think it is important to differentiate the input devices. From the post above I can read out that he is playing with a gamepad. Personally I only use mouse and keyboard, so my experience is completely different.

 

As Lexx2k pointed out, this is indeed an issue with the basic principles of game input... Keyboard gives you twice as many directional inputs as PACMAN or DIGDUG... An analog controller gives you alot more directions. With only 8 directions, you are forced to be precise because you don't have the ability to make an error... That doesn't make 8 directions superior to 360 or whatever analogs are capable of... All im saying is, when you press [BACK] on keyboard, it goes exactly back... With an analog stick if you're slightly off by a few degrees, your character is pulling an ice skating like maneuver which is retarded... So like the little pop up message says to do, here I am presenting information relevant to the update as it pertains to game play and possible issues which may affect the future of controllers. I mean they had an entire testing ordeal with the controller build, so I figure it's important... To dismiss relevant feedback submitted for consideration is contrary to the entire purpose of getting on here to discuss the update and issues which arise because of it...

 

 

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I have to agree - UI and Interactions need a serious overhaul and it would be the perfect time to do it after the animation update.

 

As for movement, the answer might be to add snappier movements based on how many degrees of turning is done and how much forward momentum is applied while turning. 

That way 180s will be quick snaps while rounding a bend will be much slower longer arch turn. 

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My biggest issue with it is when trying to loot/place things into a container and the character ends up facing away from the container while putting things into it.

Edited by Gurluas

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11 hours ago, Arsenal26 said:

But I truly hope the centrifugal G-Force U-Turning and auto-piloting gets removed for sanity sake... I feel that immersion is a balance of difficulty - realism - depth - to some extent steps to get things done and the time and resources it takes to do or make things....

give it some time. i was really fucking annoyed with the moving at first and especially the u turning you described which caused several deaths of my characters, but after a few hours i got used to and actually appreciate it a bit.

when you want to run back from zombies in the middle of sneaking or combat you now just have to turn to where ever you wanna run to and then sprint forward instead of sprinting backward immediately. its a little thing and not much of a problem anymore to me now.

i love the new look of moving around and all the animations, its an underrated part of gameplay considering that especially with these types of games youre gonna be 90% of the time just looking at your character moving around.

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Well a lot of people won't give the sluggish turning a chance. That has to be taken into consideration before this goes live.  I'd hate to see this game lose fans over something like that. Not everyone is patient enough to get past something so jarring like this.

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I know it's in beta, but this update is disappointing so far. They have so much work to do to make the character more responsive. Slow turn speed and the lack of ability to look around using just your head makes this unplayable for me. Why is there no look-behind-you button yet? I hope it won't take another 6 months for them to fix it.

 

Although I preferred the old style's visual look (now it looks like Resident Evil's 3D characters on pre-rendered backgrounds), I agree that this is a move in the right direction.  Just had to get a little worse before it inevitably gets better. 

Edited by Neonwarrior

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Spare us the controller feedback. It's not useful. It's guaranteed broken. It's not helpful to keep saying "Oh, it's broken" after we've already told you it's broken, several times.

...

 

tbh, guys. I don't see how we're going to get anywhere if the starting premise boils down to "It's all bad."

 

We had almost 100 people testing this before release. All the developers and support staff (few as we are) have been in it for a year. It's now our biggest release in terms of audience since cars -- and it's not even out yet. Literal tens of thousands of people vs. a handful here.

 

So, let's not pretend this is some embarrassment we have to fix right away before someone else sees or that these problems are some huge deal; it doesn't ruin the game. If it does for you, then there's not much else I can say beyond "We'll continue tweaking and fixing any bugs we encounter with it" but I'm not going to pretend we can literally make the entire Internet happy here.  :D 

 

To that end: not being able to just sling your mouse around and see everything behind you, while carrying on your merry way at full speed, is the whole point. It was too easy, unrealistic, and a tad stupid for 7 years. Now it's a deliberate action that is a little finicky (you have to move the mouse a bit slower and keep it a bit further from the player) after you slow down to a walk or stop briefly.  Some of that can be tweaked, but we're never going back to the old days of instantly looking back -- buttons to make it so probably isn't going to happen either.  The finickiness of it can probably be tweaked and fixed, but the premise behind it isn't going anywhere.

 

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So I got a perma-warning for discussing this...

 

The original poster and many others are saying they hate the movement as the title of the thread reads... What I am doing is breaking down the reasons as to why they may feel that way, and not to dismiss the entire weighted movement as the problem...

I narrowed it down to a couple of issues which at least one has been fixed just today. I'm not harping on the controller issue... What I am doing is examining why people are not satisfied with the input response and suggested that its perhaps not the weight at all, but rather a feeling of loss of control due to non-input triggered involuntary trajectory or movements taking over.

 

If that earns me a perma strike, whatever...

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46 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Spare us the controller feedback. It's not useful. It's guaranteed broken. It's not helpful to keep saying "Oh, it's broken" after we've already told you it's broken, several times.

...

 

tbh, guys. I don't see how we're going to get anywhere if the starting premise boils down to "It's all bad."

 

We had almost 100 people testing this before release. All the developers and support staff (few as we are) have been in it for a year. It's now our biggest release in terms of audience since cars -- and it's not even out yet. Literal tens of thousands of people vs. a handful here.

 

So, let's not pretend this is some embarrassment we have to fix right away before someone else sees or that these problems are some huge deal; it doesn't ruin the game. If it does for you, then there's not much else I can say beyond "We'll continue tweaking and fixing any bugs we encounter with it" but I'm not going to pretend we can literally make the entire Internet happy here.  :D 

 

To that end: not being able to just sling your mouse around and see everything behind you, while carrying on your merry way at full speed, is the whole point. It was too easy, unrealistic, and a tad stupid for 7 years. Now it's a deliberate action that is a little finicky (you have to move the mouse a bit slower and keep it a bit further from the player) after you slow down to a walk or stop briefly.  Some of that can be tweaked, but we're never going back to the old days of instantly looking back -- buttons to make it so probably isn't going to happen either.  The finickiness of it can probably be tweaked and fixed, but the premise behind it isn't going anywhere.

 

Turning around on a dime is realistic though. Unless of course you have a bad back or your hips are bad or something like that. Are we to assume our character has a bad back or something? Because i don't know about you, but I can turn around on a dime in real life without any sluggishness or heaviness whatsoever.  Maybe make how you turn based on your age in game or something? If you're young you can make quick crisp turns. If you're old, it can feel like turning an M1 Abrams tank like we see now?

Edited by Kelefane

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10 minutes ago, Kelefane said:

Turning around on a dime is realistic though. Unless of course you have a bad back or your hips are bad or something like that. Are we to assume our character has a bad back or something? Because i don't know about you, but I can turn around on a dime in real life without any sluggishness or heaviness whatsoever.  Maybe make how you turn based on your age in game or something? If you're young you can make quick crisp turns. If you're old, it can feel like turning an M1 Abrams tank like we see now?


Yeah, sure. We're all soccer players and ballerinas here. And the first thing you'd do if followed by a bunch of zombies would be pirouette in order to to check your six, rather hustle your ass away. Because you're just not that clumsy that you'd fall, right? 


Trying to sell this too hard. I'm not saying it's not possible, but its usage is certainly foolhardy at best and its inclusion would be detrimental to the game, rather than beneficial. You want i to be in and to be realistic? Then I get to watch you trip and get eaten as you stumble over your feet. But then you'd be here telling me the game killed you, it wasn't your fault, again.

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11 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:


Yeah, sure. We're all soccer players and ballerinas here. And the first thing you'd do if followed by a bunch of zombies would be pirouette in order to to check your six, rather hustle your ass away. Because you're just not that clumsy that you'd fall, right? 


Trying to sell this too hard. I'm not saying it's not possible, but its usage is certainly foolhardy at best and its inclusion would be detrimental to the game, rather than beneficial. You want i to be in and to be realistic? Then I get to watch you trip and get eaten as you trip over your feet. But then you'd be here telling me the game killed you, again.

You seem to be taking offense to player feedback here.  I'm far from being alone in disliking how the current turn system is working.  Yet every post ive seen you reply in to these particular feedback questions, you get borderline rude in.  You're not just trying to listen to what you want to hear and read are you? Because you have some players here and on Steam that have some genuine concern and dislike for the current turn system.  I mean, it's your game, so you can do what you want, but I hope you're listening to player feedback and concerns and not taking a "my way or the highway" approach. The way the turn system works in game is extremely jarring to me now.

Edited by Kelefane

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I've only played the animations update for a few hours so far, but so far I think the movement is "quirky" which i dislike, but am fairly sure is caused by various pathfinding bugs, so i expect that will get better.

I strongly dislike the effect that animations/3d models have had on combat. it's much harder to tell where my character is located (and directionally facing) in relationship to zombies, which has led to several deaths to single zombies. as i'm randomly attacking the air beside them as they bite my arm/torso from the side.

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2 minutes ago, Kelefane said:

You seem to be taking offense to player feedback here.  I'm far from being alone in disliking how the current turn system is working.  Yet every post ive seen you reply in to these particular feedback questions, you get borderline rude in.  You're not just trying to listen to what you want to hear and read are you? Because you have some players here and on Steam that have some genuine concern and dislike for the current turn system.  I mean, it's your game, so you can do what you want, but I hope you're listening to player feedback and concerns and not taking a "my way or the highway" approach. The way the turn system works in game is extremely jarring to me now.

I concur, my feedback is more a problem with convenience. I do not have a problem in more realistic movements and I generally like how weighty the movement is, and how you can't just instantly turn 180 degrees. But it should still be tweaked so it's easier to properly loot from containers and such.

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58 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

To that end: not being able to just sling your mouse around and see everything behind you, while carrying on your merry way at full speed, is the whole point. It was too easy, unrealistic, and a tad stupid for 7 years. Now it's a deliberate action that is a little finicky (you have to move the mouse a bit slower and keep it a bit further from the player) after you slow down to a walk or stop briefly.  Some of that can be tweaked, but we're never going back to the old days of instantly looking back -- buttons to make it so probably isn't going to happen either.  The finickiness of it can probably be tweaked and fixed, but the premise behind it isn't going anywhere.

 

 

10 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:


Yeah, sure. We're all soccer players and ballerinas here. And the first thing you'd do if followed by a bunch of zombies would be pirouette in order to to check your six, rather hustle your ass away. Because you're just not that clumsy that you'd fall, right? 


Trying to sell this too hard. I'm not saying it's not possible, but its usage is certainly foolhardy at best and its inclusion would be detrimental to the game, rather than beneficial. You want i to be in and to be realistic? Then I get to watch you trip and get eaten as you stumble over your feet. But then you'd be here telling me the game killed you, it wasn't your fault, again.

 

I don't know how you don't see the problem with the way it is now.  There should absolutely be some way to accommodate wanting to look behind you while trying to maintain your distance to zombies.  But the way it is now, you have no choice but to turn -your entire body- towards the horde behind you in order to get a glimpse at them. It used to be you could turn instantly and that this wasn't an issue, but now that realistic movement is in the game, it absolutely IS an issue. I don't need to be a soccer player or ballerina to look behind me while moving, but the player character's head is apparently welded onto their body and they have no neck to turn it with. 

 

But I understand you need to slow down in order to look behind you or you risk tripping, and that's fine, but with the way it is now, if I hold CTRL and move in one direction while looking behind me, I cannot quickly turn back and jog away without my character sliding backwards and doing a U-turn, as if I had just been running towards the direction I was looking and now have to quickly shift my momentum. This ends up moving me towards the zombies behind me and has gotten me killed already. That has to change. 

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This might be one of those times where attempting too much realism is actually taking away from the fun in the game. But yeah, if you're standing still for example any normal person can turn on a dime. You can also look behind you when running and get a damn good idea of what is chasing after you. This is realistic. Not everyone out there is a fat out of shape slob rolling down hill trying to chase a twinkie.

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20 minutes ago, Kelefane said:

You seem to be taking offense to player feedback here.  I'm far from being alone in disliking how the current turn system is working.  Yet every post ive seen you reply in to these particular feedback questions, you get borderline rude in.  You're not just trying to listen to what you want to hear and read are you? Because you have some players here and on Steam that have some genuine concern and dislike for the current turn system.  I mean, it's your game, so you can do what you want, but I hope you're listening to player feedback and concerns and not taking a "my way or the highway" approach. The way the turn system works in game is extremely jarring to me now.

 

I don't find it offensive.

 

I find it nagging, insistent, and the merits of your position wanting. You want it a very specific way and don't seem willing to consider any flaws in your reasoning.

 

What I wrote above was specifically to make you try and think through why adding what you've conceptualized (turn on a dime) is  at best flawed and at worst pointless. Others have suggested better, like a button that looks behind you or increasing the range of movement on the mouse before the character turns. They didn't take it to the extreme of repeating "turn on a dime" and lecturing about age and disease.

 

13 minutes ago, Neonwarrior said:
 
 
 
 
9 minutes ago, Neonwarrior said:

 

 

I don't know how you don't see the problem with the way it is now.  There should absolutely be some way to accommodate wanting to look behind you while trying to maintain your distance to zombies.  But the way it is now, you have no choice but to turn -your entire body- towards the horde behind you in order to get a glimpse at them.

Because you already are able to do that when you slow to a walk for a second. You hardly miss a step unless you try to do it too fast (hence my own criticism of the control). Doing so is not meant to be a convenience like it was in the old days.

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