generators, gasoline and gas station

[hrot]

So with planned generators there should be options to get gasoline from gas stations but only when power is on when it's off you can only get gasoline from containers. Also you could fill containers such as a bucket, watering can etc with gasoline. With these changes gas station will be very good location to loot, also with planned npc it will be dangerous.

[Char]

so technically, if you can haul a generator to a gas station, you could boot up the pumps and get a solid gas supply!

 

Edit: Gas stations should be explosive when hit by gunfire in the rollout of explosive weapons!

[syfy]

so technically, if you can haul a generator to a gas station, you could boot up the pumps and get a solid gas supply!

this exact idea has come up many times, but we just have to wait and see what the Devs give us to work with in regards to this idea.

[bumblemore]

Definitely needs explosions

[jefferyharrell]

It does pose a kind of buttered-cat problem. Do any of you guys know much about how gas stations (petrol stations, whatever) work in real life? I know I've heard that the pumps are electric, so yes, the mains power has to be on to get gas or diesel out of the pumps. But the fuels are stored in below-ground tanks, right? Can the fuel be siphoned out somehow without using the pumps? Is there a reasonable, realistic and non-game-breaking way to use the Fossoil station to get sustainable fuel for generators?

[Kajin]

I think the non game breaking part comes from the fact that some of the more villainous NPCs will murder the shit out of you if they find out you're in control of a gas station with a wealth of fuel so they can take it for themselves. If we can pull gas out of stations I kind of figure they'll be a majorly contested resource amongst a myriad of opposing factions. The fights over them will be bloody indeed.

[jefferyharrell]

I think the non game breaking part comes from the fact that some of the more villainous NPCs will murder the shit out of you if they find out you're in control of a gas station with a wealth of fuel so they can take it for themselves. If we can pull gas out of stations I kind of figure they'll be a majorly contested resource amongst a myriad of opposing factions. The fights over them will be bloody indeed.

 

I think that's probably valid, but I'm very new to the game still, so I don't know much about the NPC thing, or any plans or intentions related thereto. I have a lot of trouble thinking about anything but the single-player survival game, because that's all I've had experience with.

[HerrKazuya]

Can the fuel be siphoned out somehow without using the pumps? Is there a reasonable, realistic and non-game-breaking way to use the Fossoil station to get sustainable fuel for generators?

 

I imagine that there must be some sort of maintenance hatch. Because what would they do, if the tank gets damaged and needs to be repaired? In that case they would have to pump out remaining fuel as well. There must be a way to get to the gas without using the gas pumps. So, without electricity, I would try to open that hatch and use a bucket with a rope to get the gas.

[bytesguy]

Siphoning fuel from abandoned cars might be an idea. Maybe it could make you ill if you accidentally ingest some fuel from using a bit of hosepipe and sucking on the end of it. 

[particlezero]

I think the real problem with using the fuel from the gas station is that gasoline has a shelf life of about 30 days. After that it would be completely useless anyway so why bother pumping it? I realize it is a game but I like realism and using gasoline would just break immersion. Although, if you are in The Walking Dead gasoline lasts forever and bullets grow on trees.

[HerrKazuya]

I think the real problem with using the fuel from the gas station is that gasoline has a shelf life of about 30 days.

This is complete and utter nonesense. Stored in a proper tank, gasoline can last for years.

[EnigmaGrey]

 

I think the real problem with using the fuel from the gas station is that gasoline has a shelf life of about 30 days.

This is complete and utter nonesense. Stored in a proper tank, gasoline can last for years.

 

Little red Scepter can of mine only lasted 5 months because I didn't add stabilizer to it, despite it being air-tight.

Your results and definition of proper tank will vary, of course, but things like most automotive gastanks probably aren't it.

[HerrKazuya]

Little red Scepter can of mine only lasted 5 months because I didn't add stabilizer to it, despite it being air-tight.

Your results and definition of proper tank will vary, of course, but things like most automotive gastanks probably aren't it.

 

 

I'm not familiar with red scepter cans, but from what I gathered via quick google search: They aren't suitable for long term storage, because they have self-venting spouts, which means they allow octane vapour to exit the container. When that happens the octane number of the gasoline drops and subsequently the knock resistance is lowered. The result is, that the engine ignites the gasoline to early in the cylinder and it won't run.

 

A proper tank for storage is made of steel without any of that venting nonsense. The ADAC, which is the biggest automobile club in europe, stored gasoline for 25 years in airtight steel jerrycans. The result: The gasoline was still fine and usable after a quarter century!

[EnigmaGrey]

It's the spout that's self-venting, when you pour it (the spout has an extra channel for air to flow back into the can). Otherwise, it's unvented. It'd be dangerous to store indoors or in a car.

[particlezero]

The whole argument about the type of container is irrelevant anyway. During any major disaster the gas stations are emptied within a few hours. You could try to find gas trucks or siphon from abandoned vehicles but you wouldn't be the only one with that idea. Even if you did happen to find proper containers and fill them before the gas was salvaged by others or expired, how long do you think it would last? Most generators are designed to run machines that use a lot of power, so they would be terribly inefficient. In a situation like this you would want to power a refridgerator and a few lights around your base. To accomplish that in the long term you would need to use renewable sources of power. The devs are also planning on adding vehicles to the game. How many generators/cars do you think you can operate in this situation? How many jerry cans do you think you'll have? Gasoline is simply not a viable option after civilization falls.

[goldenpsp]

The whole argument about the type of container is irrelevant anyway. During any major disaster the gas stations are emptied within a few hours. You could try to find gas trucks or siphon from abandoned vehicles but you wouldn't be the only one with that idea. Even if you did happen to find proper containers and fill them before the gas was salvaged by others or expired, how long do you think it would last? Most generators are designed to run machines that use a lot of power, so they would be terribly inefficient. In a situation like this you would want to power a refridgerator and a few lights around your base. To accomplish that in the long term you would need to use renewable sources of power. The devs are also planning on adding vehicles to the game. How many generators/cars do you think you can operate in this situation? How many jerry cans do you think you'll have? Gasoline is simply not a viable option after civilization falls.

 

First off, if you are going to keep spouting the 30 days thing you will need to back that up.  In searching the best I can find is that alchohol blended gas having a shelf life of 90 days but unblended gas having a shelf life of years.

 

Second, I love how everyone it applying real world ideas to a ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE.  At best we can look at books and movies as a source.  In most ZA scenarios that I have seen I don't see anyone going to drain gas stations during the pandemonium.  Given the number of zombies walking around in a project zomboid game I would venture to guess most people got turned before anyone had a chance for a proper "disaster response".

[EnigmaGrey]

You're both going to have trouble backing up either of your claims, as most information on this seems to be anecdotal comments made on survivalist sites.

Of course realism is being brought into a game set in a facsimile of the real world, even if the threat isn't realistic. There's little point bashing people for this then trying to use the material to disprove them, particularly when the quality of zombie-related fiction is as varied as the depiction of zombies.

If a winter storm in the Maritimes can cause a gas shortage within a few days of hitting, I'm willing to bet any sign of long-term emergency is going to tax fuel distributors.

Now what might be a good long-er term alternative to gasoline for previously gasoline powered things is propane. The conversation can be as simple as modifying a carburetor. . .  This probably means things like wood gas could also be used, though I doubt many people either know of or know how to make one (and with the warnings about how deadly it can be, with good reason).

 

[goldenpsp]

You're both going to have trouble backing up either of your claims, as most information on this seems to be anecdotal comments made on survivalist sites.

Of course realism is being brought into a game set in a facsimile of the real world, even if the threat isn't realistic. There's little point bashing people for this then trying to use the material to disprove them, particularly when the quality of zombie-related fiction is as varied as the depiction of zombies.

If a winter storm in the Maritimes can cause a gas shortage within a few days of hitting, I'm willing to bet any sign of long-term emergency is going to tax fuel distributors.

Now what might be a good long-er term alternative to gasoline for previously gasoline powered things is propane. The conversation can be as simple as modifying a carburetor. . .  This probably means things like wood gas could also be used, though I doubt many people either know of or know how to make one (and with the warnings about how deadly it can be, with good reason).

 

 

The only thing I have been trying to get at, in any of these threads is that there always needs to be a balance between realism and good gameplay.  Personally I am willing to stretch a bit of realism in order to have a fun game, especially when some notions of "realism" are snippets of information that may not even be accurate or relevant to the notion of a zombie apocalypse.

[particlezero]

This probably means things like wood gas could also be used, though I doubt many people either know of or know how to make one (and with the warnings about how deadly it can be, with good reason).

  A wood gasifier could be a very interesting mechanic. There certainly is enough wood to be found. It would also add yet another way to abruptly end your habit of breathing by way of exploding your own face off.

[emiliano0086]

I don`t get why are we arguing about fuel while we can get power by other ways like a steam generator for example. It`s easy to build/maintain (if you get a boiler, of course)

[Char]

just steal a generator that runs on LP, and some nice big LP bottles, that will last you quite a while indeed, if used sparingly (eg, using the Gen to cook, make hot water, heat the house...).

[CaptKaspar]

I want to beat this dead horse of an idea.

 

I really hope we get a way to get fuel from the gas stations after the power goes out.

 

Now that we have moveable furniture in 33.x, I have moved a refrigerator to my custom safe house, hooked up a generator on the roof, and now have a powered fridge! WOW, this is so cool! I plan on moving some lights soon as well. I am no longer confined to pre-existing buildings if I want refrigeration!

 

BUT..... I can only use it for so long. The power on our server is already out and there is a finite supply of gasoline out there in garages (which would lose its volatility way before the fuel in the tanks at the stations) etc.

 

On a realism note: Gas stations would eventually run out of gas, the gas will eventually lose its volatility, and getting the pumps at a station to work is more complicated than just hooking up a generator (or so I'm told). Generators are not a permanent long term solution without a replenish-able fuel source.

 

On a game-play note: Having fuel available at the gas stations after the power goes out (either by siphoning or by hooking up a generator) allows and encourages my player to go on dangerous loot runs to the gas stations. It encourages me to leave my safe house and take some risks. This is good for game-play and is also good for a game that is trying to kill me. Not to mention that gas stations will likely be 'hotspots' for interactions with other players, good or bad. Generators also make a lot of noise at your safe house which increases your chances of having more interactions with zombies. So in a game that is trying to kill you, encouraging you to take risks, venture out, encounter other players, and likely have to fight more zombies is IMO a good thing.

 

If there were other ways of generating electricity, I would be ok with generators being worthless after a few months. But, there isn't (I won't open that can of worms at this time). In RL you could explore other ways of generating electricity, but in this game you can not. So our only option is generators and they have a short life.

 

Maybe needing a crowbar to open the fuel tanks filling necks and a rubber hose to siphon off gas into a gas can? Or needing an electrician to hook up a generator to the gas station?

 

Gas stations have thousands of gallons/liters of fuel in their tanks typically. Those tanks are specially designed to prevent the loss of volatility. There are also usually only a few players on each server, or one person in survival or sandbox. So I don't see it as unreasonable to suspend disbelief just a little and allow us to get fuel for a long time after the power goes out.

 

I can only see this improving game-play.

[ulfstein]

Simple solution is allow us to make ethanol and allow level 4 electronics modify generators for ethanol or propane fuel types. alcohol = fruit/sugar + yeast + container. Ethanol = alcohol + kettle + pipe+ steel wool/aluminum + container + heat. yeast = expired bread dough

 

Also, I'd like the idea that the gas stations be mainly out of gas rather quickly if not immediately, but maybe kerosene/diesel remaining.  Electronics could modify cars for it as well.   So early game, jerry can raids, mid game car siphons/propane tanks, late game ethanol production.

 

a reference to generator and car modification. Apparently the government will subsidize you if you make your own fuel which is very interesting indeed. http://www.gobag.org/archives/

[CaptKaspar]

Simple solution is allow us to make ethanol and allow level 4 electronics modify generators for ethanol or propane fuel types. alcohol = fruit/sugar + yeast + container. Ethanol = alcohol + kettle + pipe+ steel wool/aluminum + container + heat. yeast = expired bread dough

 

 

I wouldn't call that a "simple solution" but yeah its a feasible one.

 

First we'd need to be able to grow a crop that could be more easily used for the initial brewing stage prior to distillation. Corn, wheat, barley, or some sort of fruit would work best. I guess we could use potatoes and strawberries.

 

Yeast can be collected naturally from the air. http://bootlegbiology.com/diy/capturing-yeast/

 

Setting up a distiller is definitely a process but not outside the feasible realm of an engineer (assuming its the mechanical type of engineer). The average joe won't be making one without some know-how. Perhaps a manual can be found for making one.

 

I think your long-term vision is a good one. But what would you consider early, mid-game, and late game? Right now by default, servers have the power shut-off after 14 days (btw a random 1-X months like sandbox would be a great option here). In the first 14 days most players on 33.XX aren't focused on thinking about storing gasoline yet. The first week is spent trying to get a foothold of a safe house set up. The next week is usually spent scavenging for required tools, items, etc. I guess this is when you'll need to focus on getting gas because you only have a few short days to harvest it. However, once you need a generator, you can no longer get gas for it. Which is sort of a "Catch-22". Of course the server settings can be changed to whatever X number of days before the power shuts off, but by default its 14 days. Also on a server that is already started, you can't change that value.

 

Siphoning from cars is a great idea, but unfortunately there are no static cars in the world to siphon from. We have been shown pictures of cars that are going to be added at some point in the future, but for now its best not to plan based on a feature that isn't in game. I suggest implementing the system to siphon, but allow us to do it to gas station fuel tanks. When cars are eventually added, we can siphon from them as well. In a SP game there is only 1 person. That supply of gas in the tanks will last a long time. It will lose its volatility before the supply runs out most likely (Cool server/sandbox option would be to randomize the amount of gas in the tanks at each station).

 

Once those tanks dry up, then we can give up on electricity or find another source of fuel/electricity.

 

Right now the simplest way is to allow us to hook up a generator to the gas station and turn the pumps on. All the pieces are already in game. We have generators that already supply electricity to buildings. We also already need electricians to set them up. The pumps already are coded to need electricity. Its just the small step of allowing generators to be hooked up to the pumps.

 

I think your vision for the long-term development is a good one though!

[ulfstein]

lol, well it matches my chemistry idea rather well, but I do think that using already in game mechanics should be used first when available. However, this kind of seems cheap to me unless gas eventually runs out even after being hooked up to a generator. Like add x amount of hours of generator use before shut off.  I had a similar idea with water tower pumps that were reliant on generator power, but I think the end game would be that these are only temporary solutions until you are forced to make your own fuel to ink out as much as you can on your own til its just not sustainable to make your own fuel anymore or winter shortages due to frost.  Then boom, cave man days til you meet your grizzly death.

 

For me, i guess i don't "early" like most people, and i haven't gotten to play much past the initial cut off.  I'm typically nomadic, shuttling materials to central buildings in various areas and simply barricading certain portions to sleep at, so I have multiple storehouses where i know where things are and then a safehouse/place or two for sleeping/healing in preparation for power/water going out. Not a fan of building a fort or anything off the bat, and i don't often level up carpentry that much. If water towers and powerable gas stations were applicable, I would also stockpile filled jerry cans so I could restart production temporarily.

 

Once power runs out, I start mid-game mode making stone tools and stuff if I haven't raided a warehouse (typically don't, the stuff can stay there til I need it) make some camp fires and boil water. Haven't really done much after this. I've lived out in the woods most my life, lived on farms, and finally live in town while i pursue a career in chemistry which again is an in town thing, so i'm more interested in urban survival right now than fortress building and farming though it will be inevitable if i want to eek out the most amount of time, so getting gas pumps, siphoning cars, and getting water tower pumps working would be something to peak my interest in the mid game before doing things that are rather mundane for me.