Views on recreational drug use

[Jonientz]

Marijuana is currently the only illegal drug I'd say should actually be legalized. It's not even as bad as tobacco and alcohol in terms of potential personal and societal damage.

First we had the myth of reefer madness, and now we have the myth of the harmless, non-addictive miracle herb cannabis that's not only fun, but also cures anything from head aches to cancer. While it's most certainly not the worst drug around, it's hardly harmless and non-addictive. In fact here in the Netherlands marijuana seems to be one of the leading causes in drug dependency as only alcohol and heroin users seek help more often. And while addiction is typically relatively benign, marijuana can and does destroy lives. Marijuana has some promising medical applications in the area of symptom treatment, it's medical potential is often exaggerated and medical marijuana is mostly quackery.

I'm all for legalization, but the over-hyped memezation of cannabis is a bit of a pet peeve for me. Research rather consistently classifies cannabis as a medium-risk drug.

I believe dependency is the word you're looking for,but maybe mental addiction is the right term. Pot isn't physically addictive like opiods, benzodiazepines and amphetamines. You can get addicted to it like you can sex porn and masturbation but not physically like the previously mentioned drugs. Dextromethorphan (cough syrup) is frequently miscategorized as having opiod like addictive properties, while in actuallity it does not.

[BLATANTLY_POTATO]

In my opinion, some recreational drugs are fine and people can do what they want with them, others should be banned from every corner of the earth, like krokodil, that stuff is disgusting. I have seen pictures of people on that, and it is horrible. It eats the persons flesh!

[Marinus]

@Jonientz The differentiation between physical dependency and mental dependency is mostly artificial. The mind is a function of the brain, and the brain is a physical organ. Sleeplessness, irritability and anomalies in the REM sleep seen in marijuana withdrawal are not essentially different from cramps and shivers seen in heroin withdrawal, They symptoms aren't nearly as dramatic and are seen as psychological, is all. Also note that so-called physical withdrawal symptoms are not at all indicative for the severity of an addiction. For example, caffeine withdrawal is often partly physical in the form of rather severe head aches while cocaine is only "psychologically" addictive. Cocaine addiction, however, is far more serious that caffeine addiction.

 

Marijuana doesn't cause addiction like porn does, it does cause addiction because using weed directly alters the composition of the brain chemistry, just like all the other drugs do.

 

@BLATANTELY_POTATO. Krokodil AKA desomorphine doesn't eat flesh cause massive tissue damage. Clandestine preparation more often than not results in a product that's  heavily contaminated, and it's these contaminants that do the damage. One of the many arguments in favor of legalization of drugs, is the fact that quality control would result in a reasonably pure product. So if anything, the mutilations caused by illegally produced and therefore contaminated desomorphine are actually an argument fin favor of legalization and/or regulation.

[Jonientz]

@Jonientz The differentiation between physical dependency and mental dependency is mostly artificial. The mind is a function of the brain, and the brain is a physical organ. Sleeplessness, irritability and anomalies in the REM sleep seen in marijuana withdrawal are not essentially different from cramps and shivers seen in heroin withdrawal, They symptoms aren't nearly as dramatic and are seen as psychological, is all. Also note that so-called physical withdrawal symptoms are not at all indicative for the severity of an addiction. For example, caffeine withdrawal is often partly physical in the form of rather severe head aches while cocaine is only "psychologically" addictive. Cocaine addiction, however, is far more serious that caffeine addiction.

 

Marijuana doesn't cause addiction like porn does, it does cause addiction because using weed directly alters the composition of the brain chemistry, just like all the other drugs do.

 

@BLATANTELY_POTATO. Krokodil AKA desomorphine doesn't eat flesh cause massive tissue damage. Clandestine preparation more often than not results in a product that's  heavily contaminated, and it's these contaminants that do the damage. One of the many arguments in favor of legalization of drugs, is the fact that quality control would result in a reasonably pure product. So if anything, the mutilations caused by illegally produced and therefore contaminated desomorphine are actually an argument fin favor of legalization and/or regulation.

Drugs with Physical addictive properties can kill from withdrawal. You have raised a point in the difference between variants of dependencies i hadn't considered before, as far as how they're similar.

 

Pertaining to regulation and quality control, the same can be said about heroin. Impurities in it have claimed many a life, while medical grade heroin used in the U.K for hospital use has not. Think it's called diamorphine?

[Jatta Pake]

The drunk guy drives up to a stop sign and runs it, because he doesn't see it.

The guy high on crack comes up to a stop sign and guns it, because he knows he can beat the cross traffic.

The guy high on weed comes up to a stop sign and stops, waiting for the sign to turn green.

[Keepbro]

The drunk guy drives up to a stop sign and runs it, because he doesn't see it.

The guy high on crack comes up to a stop sign and guns it, because he knows he can beat the cross traffic.

The guy high on weed comes up to a stop sign and stops, then falls asleep and gets hit by oncoming traffic.

 

Fixed that for you. 

 

So you think legalization will make weed cheaper and solve problems with purity once put under government oversight? I don't think so. I think it will suddenly end up being a cash crop like sugar. You ever see how sugar is farmed? It's most unpleasant.

 

Also you'll simply get some Starbucks like company move in, price out all the nice homegrowers who do it to make an extra buck, because they have plantations in Nigeria or somewhere life is cheap and they can get kids to farm it on an industrial scale with no oversight. Yes it'll be pure but I think it'll simply be some shitty bubblegum style weed that is quick and easy to grow and tastes like shit but its ok because there's no rat poison in it anymore excepting the tons of preservatives and chemicals that'll get added to make sure it survives the crossing from A to B and then once its on your shelves booya cheaper weed. I think that conservatively you'll be paying a 1/3 less than what you are paying now for something that'll have the same branding and level of moral outrage that cigarettes get hit for.

 

Oh and forget about hashish which personally I prefer as its production methods are too long for businesses to seriously contemplate creating a production method for. It'll disappear overnight.

[Jonientz]

The drunk guy drives up to a stop sign and runs it, because he doesn't see it.

The guy high on crack comes up to a stop sign and guns it, because he knows he can beat the cross traffic.

The guy high on weed comes up to a stop sign and stops, waiting for the sign to turn green.

The guy high on weed doesn't have the reaction time to brake for poor Jimmy.

[syfy]

nevermind

[Spaniard]

Legalization of drugs makes our society safer and it would not cause these doomsday scenarios y'all keep bringing up. Look at Colorado, for instance, and you will see the economic gains for legalizing Marijuana. The truth of the matter is that you will be removing the black market, something which no one seems to want to talk about. Just like with Prohibition in the United States, if countries start making their own drugs, we will see the illegal drug trade take a big hit, no pun intended, in the Middle East, South, and Central America. That alone is reason enough to stop this absurd, costly, and pointless war on drugs. The other reason to decriminalize and legalize drugs is that it will be safer for society as a whole.

Just look at prison statistics if you think the way we punish drug offenders is okay. These people require help and I do not suggest "freeing" all substances but regulating it, taxing it, and treating addicts with tried methods that actually help abusers. A controlled supply will cause less deaths due to impurities in the drugs, and we will know who the addicts are, and will be able to help them.

One last thing, will this new system be perfect? No because the world is becoming more corporate, of course, the drug industry would have to safe guard itself just like any industry. There will be unintended consequences but that goes with anything in life or legislation. But to use that as a reason for not allowing the legalization of drugs is absurd. Just because something will have challenges in its implementation does not mean it's not feasible or worth it. The gains easily outweigh any potential losses. It's like telling Abraham Lincoln to chill out, "Hey man, let's not free those slaves, it'll just cause a lot of tension between us and the South. Ya' know? Let's just keep things the way they are, it's less scary that way."

[Geras]

Drugs bad.

[deprav]

drugs are neutral, excess is bad.

[Keepbro]

Legalization of drugs makes our society safer (I don't think it would it would just make drug dealers look for other black market opportunities) and it would not cause these doomsday scenarios y'all keep bringing up. Look at Colorado, for instance, and you will see the economic gains for legalizing Marijuana. The truth of the matter is that you will be removing the black market (you can't remove a black market, it will always exist as long as people want to purchase things and the ability exists to sell without govt oversight) something which no one seems to want to talk about. Just like with Prohibition (you can't really use prohibition as an example because at the time literally everyone drank alcohol which was why prohibition was so bloody) in the United States, if countries start making their own drugs, we will see the illegal drug trade take a big hit (no you'll just be legitimizing revenue streams for crime groups like Turkish/Kurdish mafia for Mid East, Colombian and Mexican cartels for South/Central America - they'll still be murderous scumbags but now they'll have legitimate money to pursue their ends) no pun intended, in the Middle East, South, and Central America. That alone is reason enough to stop this absurd, costly, and pointless war on drugs. The other reason to decriminalize and legalize drugs is that it will be safer for society as a whole (again I don't think it will - its just whitewashing an area because the current tactics and efforts aren't working so whats needed is new tactics and efforts not burying our head in the sand and just allowing it because the current methods arent viable.)

Just look at prison statistics if you think the way we punish drug offenders is okay (America punishes everyone wrong I feel not just drug users, if I lived in the US I would be in prison for life because on 3 separate occasions I have cashed cheques that failed to clear). These people require help and I do not suggest "freeing" all substances but regulating it, taxing it, and treating addicts with tried methods that actually help abusers (no argument there but still I don't think legalizing all drugs is the answer). A controlled supply will cause less deaths due to impurities in the drugs, and we will know who the addicts are, and will be able to help them (strangely enough its usually runners who cause deaths due to cut substances, most suppliers don't like to kill their customers and its very rare for it to happen and when it does its paraded around by media as evidence of how dangerous drugs are)

One last thing, will this new system be perfect? No because the world is becoming more corporate, of course, the drug industry would have to safe guard itself just like any industry. There will be unintended consequences but that goes with anything in life or legislation. But to use that as a reason for not allowing the legalization of drugs is absurd. Just because something will have challenges in its implementation does not mean it's not feasible or worth it. The gains (money, allowing people to do currently illegal drugs, letting the police focus on other issues) easily outweigh any potential losses (lots of medical issues, legitimate money for crime groups, giving the police more time to focus on other issues). It's like telling Abraham Lincoln to chill out, "Hey man, let's not free those slaves, it'll just cause a lot of tension between us and the South. Ya' know? Let's just keep things the way they are, it's less scary that way." (comparing freedom to lifestyle issues is again I don't think relevant).

 

My rebuttals in bold

[Svarog]

I'll give my opinion but first, "Recreational" is a stupid ass term that someone pulled out of his ass to push for legalization because it sounds nicer than just drugs or 'hard' drugs. No such thing as recreational drugs, I'm a smoker, I could say I smoke recreationally but that's a bullshit cover for "I smoke because I'm addicted and don't wan't to stop". Same goes for alcohol and less so, coffee.

In general about (ab)users:
And my opinion in general is, nobody should give a single **** about drug (ab)users. It's their business, their money and their life (unless it's not, then we should care for the other guy). Honestly, I'd take away their ability to get insured or possibility to get free health-care because frankly if they can afford drugs they should be able to afford hospitalization if it goes south. As a smoker, I do not expect everyone to throw cash at me so I can get meds when I inevitably get cancer, it will be my fault and I'm old enough to know that simple fact.

On the "light" and "recreational" "weed":
I assume the thread in general is about smoking "weed" because that's "recreational" I smoked weed a few times in my life, didn't like it much (it gave me slow-mo effect and that was only positive about it, it depresses me otherwise for some reason) I know a guy who smokes it like I smoke cigarettes, that guy looks high 24/7 and is the main reason I didn't try more than a few times. It's in the same ball park as alcohol, use it sometimes and you feel better, have a few laughs with your buddies, abuse it and you'll look like an idiot 24/7.

On legalization:
Also, legalization will not shut down black market. it will cause black market goods to be cheaper (and likely cut with much more crap than they are now) so when people who will get addicted on stuff from "Official Drug Store (We're backed by government!)" won't be able to afford premium quality stuff they will go over to black market. Nothing can solve that problem. It happens even with cigarettes, you can get quality pack for $5 or a pack of home made crap for $1 when you're addicted you don't care for quality, you'll grab what you can afford.

PS:
I know I have a harsh opinion on it, I can understand using to see how it feels, I did that, but I still think it's a dumb thing to do.
I also get medicinal uses for terminal patients because anything that eases their pain before the inevitable comes is a good thing.

[Spaniard]

. . . Do bootleggers still exist in the United States? Yes, but they're not nearly as influential or powerful as they were during prohibition. You're twisting facts to fit some post-apocalyptic scenario that only making drugs illegal can somehow possibly keep us from. Both of your ways of presenting this issue are laden with paranoia and personal opinions that just aren't the truth.

 

I could say I smoke recreationally but that's a bullshit cover for "I smoke because I'm addicted and don't wan't to stop"

I'm sorry if you feel that it's bullshit, but not everyone that does something, does it all the time and every day. There are such things as moderate smokers to smokers that rarely smoke. Not everyone falls under the category of heavy smoker.

The government has a role to fill and play, taxing, and regulating products , especially those that people ingest, is part of its fundamental duty not as a "Big Brother" but as a way to ensure we're not drinking cyanide in our Orange Juice in the morning. Again, the government is not perfect, but stop conflating other issues to somehow disprove the fact that decriminalizing drug offenders, legalizing the use of drugs, and treating these people as patients instead of criminals would benefit society. It's a sociological fact that it would improve our society as a whole, take sociology 101 or just look at the statistics for a first world country that legalizes drugs/decriminalizes them versus how the United States' prison system fares by comparison. You will see the US's prison system's predatory financially motivated maneuvers focus on keeping minorities and the impoverished locked up and have a huge sway in congress. It's not a coincidence that it suffers, just like any country that treats those that suffer from chemical dependence like they were some rabid dog that is better being put down.

Seriously, the way some of you are painting drug addicts is deplorable. These are people; not wastes of space that are just making excuses for their "easy" lifestyle. You may have "personal experiences" where you knew a good for nothing drug addict that had it all but didn't give a shit but that's far from the truth for a majority of people. An addiction is something that should be treated medically, not judicially . . . You're pretty much shoving a big middle finger in the face of medical science by insinuating we should criminalize substance abusers because this is a realm medical science can somehow not solve. Give me a break.
 

[nasKo]

I stay away from people who use them in excess. If friends or buddies want to use them every now and then, it's their decision but I will not get involved.

 

As stated before, Mariuana is what I put down as tobacco in my book. It's still up to people if they want to use it.

I guess this might change once I have kids, myself. I wouldn't want them to get involved in them or any other light drug until we (as parents) and them (as kids) agree they are "ready" for responsible consume.

[Svarog]

Yeah I might have went overboard with it, I don't think I did but then again I'm known for some non-friendly opinions on certain subjects.

Sure that not everyone uses all the time, some people actually do smoke\drink\whatever once every x amount of time, well, whatever works for them. Like I said it's nobody's business but their own. And yes I actually did know a few good for nothing drug abusers that were a drain on their families' resources, health and money and nothing more. One of them also turned out to be a rapist so... yea I have a very, very biased view of such people and I admit that. Should have admitted that in earlier post but didn't. My bad.

Well, my experience with drugs is limited, I don't use anything but cigarettes or alcohol, anything else I tried I didn't like, or had effect opposite to the one I expected (Get depressed from smoking weed, every time). The question is, who should we really ask about this stuff?

People like me with experiences, limited to a few cases of bad news and knowing some trainwrecks or people who actually know some users who don't really blow their life away? Both will have biased opinions. There is really little middle ground when discussing drugs. Legalization can help short term, remove the "Forbidden Fruit Effect" but unless they make something that cures addictions using drugs is still gambling with your life. Unless you can really admit to yourself that you have a problem and have the strength to do something about it. It's a stupid thing to do. And I'm not saying users should be locked up, that's an idiotic thing to do actually and does not help anyone with anything (except maybe prisons with getting funding).

Also I'm sorry for my post being so... aggressive, I don't know why I wrote it that way but I stand my ground. I smoke I know what can happen, I might die. People who use drugs should also know damn well where it can end. Nobody is forcing anybody to use that stuff, it has consequences, I don't like the idea of having to hand-hold adult people like they are kids and explaining them that stuff is bad they should be wiser than that, people NEED to be able to face the consequences of their decisions, let's not treat drug abusers like kiddies who can't know any better.

People can do whatever the hell they want. But I'm not going to feel sorry or help them if they fuck shit up just as I would not expect anyone to feel sorry for me or help me out of something I put myself into.

[Ontogenesis]

My 2 cents on this issue. To give my position context, I work in mental health and the most times I come across drugs (including alcohol) is when they're misused to avoid/cope with problems/negative feelings.

 

Alcohol has it's position as one of the most harmful as it is the most easily accessible. My qualms about legalisation and regulation is that it would make other drugs more widely accessible and increase access for those who are vulnerable to misuse who otherwise would have less opportunity. Personal responsibility is not a clear issue as it assumes every decision we make is rational and conscious, all of the time, which is completely not true. You might say it's personal choice, but with systems like the NHS we all pay.

 

That aside, cannabis is fairly harmless, and should probably be legal. Although dependency is still an issue (more psychological than physical), and it is known to exacerbate mental health problems. Though, there's some interesting research currently ongoing at the moment with CBD (one of the psychoactive ingredients of cannabis) as a treatment for schizophrenia. There's also trials with LSD as a treatment for depression but I'm a bit more skeptical of.

 

On a side note - I personally believe benzos should never be prescribed for anxiety disorders, especially panic attacks. They're known to maintain the problem and are extremely unhelpful in the long term and can cause an atrophy in coping skills.

[Jonientz]

My 2 cents on this issue. To give my position context, I work in mental health and the most times I come across drugs (including alcohol) is when they're misused to avoid/cope with problems/negative feelings.

 

Alcohol has it's position as one of the most harmful as it is the most easily accessible. My qualms about legalisation and regulation is that it would make other drugs more widely accessible and increase access for those who are vulnerable to misuse who otherwise would have less opportunity. Personal responsibility is not a clear issue as it assumes every decision we make is rational and conscious, all of the time, which is completely not true. You might say it's personal choice, but with systems like the NHS we all pay.

 

That aside, cannabis is fairly harmless, and should probably be legal. Although dependency is still an issue (more psychological than physical), and it is known to exacerbate mental health problems. Though, there's some interesting research currently ongoing at the moment with CBD (one of the psychoactive ingredients of cannabis) as a treatment for schizophrenia. There's also trials with LSD as a treatment for depression but I'm a bit more skeptical of.

 

On a side note - I personally believe benzos should never be prescribed for anxiety disorders, especially panic attacks. They're known to maintain the problem and are extremely unhelpful in the long term and can cause an atrophy in coping skills.

my "friend" only uses when they arent depressed or stressed much that day. I'd say that form of use is much less harmful than even using cannabis to manage issues

[Keepbro]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-just-accidentally-legalised-ecstasy-ketamine-and-crystal-meth-10098612.html

You might find this interesting!!

[Jonientz]

Oh my god. Oops you can do drugs for a day. My friend would have dropped so much money that day

[Keepbro]

Quick Seamus - let's get cooking!

[migulao]

Don't you love it when people speak with intelligent arguments in a thread about drugs?

On the internet?

[PlasmaMan]

Don't you love it when people speak with intelligent arguments in a thread about drugs?

On the internet?

 I was planning on posting something intelligent here myself, but just about any angle of my opinion I have has already been voiced (that's not to say multiple people with the same opinion doesn't make it a stronger, more fortified opinion, but this is a forum post, not a court case where we debate whether shit should be legal yo). Well, I'm gonna go back to playing GTA V for 17 hours a day, have fun talking smart!

[Spaniard]

I don't know, man.

 

There's no serious evidence which supports that cracking down on drug abuse helps in any tangible way(excluding if you're a private prison industry and any law enforcement agency). Sociological scholars and anyone who seriously studies economics doesn't debate about this political issue because they unanimously agree that The War on Drugs is tragically wasteful. No one that's taken seriously in this field would argue otherwise (Citations: Bingham Dai, The Sociology of Drug Use;pg. 423, DATOS, Opium Abuse in Chciago). I guess people will always believe in magic. To me this whole argument is pointless. It's like arguing over whether or not grass is green.

[uberevan]

Maybe we should legalize recreational drugs just for a while to see whether crime rates and all those other negative rates increase or decrease...

There's no real way to know unless it's already happening, so we might as well do an experiment.  Unfortunately this would come at the cost of our test subjects, though if they are wanting to risk it for drug usage on their own you can hardly hold yourself accountable.