Did Double Fine Just Crap All Over The Gaming Community?

[Xydonus]

So I just learned about this a few minutes ago, for those not clued in - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/09/18/double-fine-early-access-spacebase-df9/

 

Now, I have Spacebase DF-9. I'm not angry because I feel cheated. DF-9 was bought for me from a mate as a gift, so it wasn't my money. I'm angry because what Double Fine have done has essentially made it much, much harder for small-time developers like Indiestone and others (including myself in which I'm currently designing an adventure game via AGS) to earn the trust of consumers in an environment that has just produced a lot of pissed off fans. I've shown this to a few mates of mine who don't even have the game nor have ever heard of Double Fine and it's riled them up as well.

 

Double Fine got on my radar as one of those developers to be 'wary' off from the Broken Age controversy concerning not having enough funds to finish the game, despite getting far more than their original pledge. Now they've made it on my list of developers to avoid. What they've essentially done is they basically said, "Fuck it. Can't afford to keep the game going so what we'll do is we'll release it here and now. From Alpha 6 to 1.0."

 

Now to be fair; they're also releasing the source files to it so that it can be fully 100% modded. But that's neither here or there because at the end of the day, it's just not on. It's bad business. But it also affects other developers in a knock-on effect.

 

If Indiestone decided to pack-up and leave Zomboid as it is, I'd wager there would be quite a few unhappy folks about. Except Zomboid is in a far more enjoyable and playable state than DF-9 is. DF-9 could hardly be called a half a game in its current state.

 

I understand the concept of Early Access; a lot of people seem to have conflicting definitions on what Early Access is. I don't view it as a risk investment. I view Kickstarter as a risk investment. Not Early Access. I see it as supporting the developer in the early stages of development with the perception that the game WILL be finalized. I don't see it as gambling my money on the hopes that one day it will be finished. I expect it to be finished and a full game when it comes out.

 

But due to irresponsible business management, Double Fine have probably reversed the perception of what Early Access is now: a risky investment. Because if studios like Double Fine can simply say "To hell with it, release it now!" well that puts a whole different spin on things and makes it much more difficult for everyone else starting out in the business.

[EnigmaGrey]

When was early access ever sold as anything other than an "at your own risk" purchase?

[GerbilSchooler]

That's where it has to come down more to consumer prudence,  I think. If there is money to be had, charlatans and their ilk are gonna be out looking for it. It is hard, however, to be a prudent consumer with Steam and their slew of early access (I probably have at least ten in my own library). If a game is early access on Steam,  I try and make sure the game or the studio has an active forum with direct developer feedback.  I tap around and see how the devs respond, etc. It's far from full proof but it's the best thing I can think of to judge if an early access game is going to be realized. Then, there's always the option of waiting until 1.0

 

Edit: I understand that not all unfinished early access titles are perpetrated by charlatans but I still expect I might not get my monies worth if the game is not already worth the money as is

[Viceroy]

Yeah the community around DF9 is very pissed off about this, as am I to be honest. The whole statement they made about the community creating new content especially just feels like they are trying to sell potential. Potential is not a product and DF9 has a nearly non existant modding community, so mark my words that it will fall flat.

 

On another front the whole thing about them not having funds to finish it when the whole 400K investment was recouped in like the first month is absolute shite. The level of squander that must have taken place is ludicrous. The reason the game isn't selling is because it is too sparse to be honest. Most people I know love management titles and games like that, they love space and are (many of them.) SS13 regulars. Yet they didn't buy in because it is A) a skeleton and B) focusing on unimportant shite like characters having plush toys, instead of more fleshed out roles on the station and a command structure for example. Sure it looks pretty, but compared to something like Rimworld it just falls flat when it comes to gameplay. Always gameplay before graphics.

 

The whole thing is fucktarded if you ask me, especially how they said "They aren't some fly-by-night company that'll silently pull the plug." and then silently pulled the plug and glossed it over as good news and as a full release so it isn't "pulled" *technically*.

 

I believe DF is gonna face massive repercussions due to this and that they might never recover from it. It shows in the quality of the product that they are not to be trusted with your cash monies.

 

At least TIS is better at communicating, and in general at making a game with some meat on it. So I have no fears for it and PZ, hell PZ has an active community and an intelligent and passionate modding community as well, even if something like this did happen here, PZ would actually have a MUCH greater chance of getting user added value than DF9 does at this point.

 

EDIT: And yeah every Early Access title has risk, that doesn't mean that you MUST be happy with the result.

[Connall]

The thing about money is, the amount means differing things to different people. To be fair to Double Fine they are developing in one of the most expenses cities ever and they already pay 10k a month out to each employee. That's just employees, there's so many costs to take into play. So despite what 1.4 mill might seem like, or what 400k in whatever time seems like. It's not entirely impossible that they just didn't run out of funds.

 

I don't know where I stand when it comes to running out of funds before finishing development. If you're spending so much money that it's not viable to continue then that's just what it is. It probably wouldn't help to go deeper into the red just to try and please the internet. I think CaptainBinky put it best when he said that the basis of your funding on the hopes that the EA funds will come in at a consistent basis is ludicrous and should have probably known better.

 

I don't know, I'm bummed but I also wouldn't really want them to drive themselves in to the ground making people happy. They messed up and they really should have known better but such is life in the time of EA.

 

As they say though, don't buy a game from Early Access unless you're prepared for development to stop the very next day. It's how I felt about Project Zomboid and still happy by that decision.

 

Edit: I will explicitly say I don't support what Double Fine did, they screwed the pooch with this one.

[Xydonus]

When was early access ever sold as anything other than an "at your own risk" purchase?

 

I'm sorry Enigma, but regardless of how I personally define Early Access, I don't expect a developer to shut-up shop on a game that early in development. Early Access does not give a developer a free license to screw customers over.

[EnigmaGrey]

I'm afraid it, well, does, whether we like it or not.

You should be aware that some teams will be unable to 'finish' their game. So you should only buy an Early Access game if you are excited about playing it in its current state.

There's no promise of completion, continuation, or otherwise with an early access title. From its conception, it's been that place on Steam where people can bet on a game they like, but that isn't ready for Steam, and get some degree of access to.

None of this is meant to come across as "I support Double Fine's actions", though.

[Xydonus]

Aye, I'm aware of that statement. I'm also aware that it's probably not legally binding when it stands up against most consumer laws and I would argue its bad ethics and bad business, but that's probably an entirely different subject altogether.

 

I shall continue to shake my fist at Double Fine regardless and fart in their general direction for good measure.

[Connall]

Aye, I'm aware of that statement. I'm also aware that it's probably not legally binding when it stands up against most consumer laws and I would argue its bad ethics and bad business, but that's probably an entirely different subject altogether.

 

I shall continue to shake my fist at Double Fine regardless and fart in their general direction for good measure.

 

I don't think it could be classed as abandonware, at least not yet since it will still be getting support for it (even if it's minimal.) As far as I'm aware, there's not much in the way of consumer laws with this sort of thing.

 

It's unarguably bad ethics and bad business for them, since it's tarnished their name.

[Xydonus]

 

Aye, I'm aware of that statement. I'm also aware that it's probably not legally binding when it stands up against most consumer laws and I would argue its bad ethics and bad business, but that's probably an entirely different subject altogether.

 

I shall continue to shake my fist at Double Fine regardless and fart in their general direction for good measure.

 

I don't think it could be classed as abandonware, at least not yet since it will still be getting support for it (even if it's minimal.) As far as I'm aware, there's not much in the way of consumer laws with this sort of thing.

 

It's unarguably bad ethics and bad business for them, since it's tarnished their name.

 

 

 

I assume there's a law that protects your rights as a consumer when you 'buy a digital product' and I don't think a distinction is made for Early Access. You hand money over for that product, regardless of its state. I'm pretty sure there's a legal issue there because I had to go rooting through a ton of consumer laws years ago to confront Overclockers UK with an issue and I remember reading something about digital purchases.

 

I could go rooting again looking for links but I can't honestly be bothered...

[Connall]

 

 

Aye, I'm aware of that statement. I'm also aware that it's probably not legally binding when it stands up against most consumer laws and I would argue its bad ethics and bad business, but that's probably an entirely different subject altogether.

 

I shall continue to shake my fist at Double Fine regardless and fart in their general direction for good measure.

 

I don't think it could be classed as abandonware, at least not yet since it will still be getting support for it (even if it's minimal.) As far as I'm aware, there's not much in the way of consumer laws with this sort of thing.

 

It's unarguably bad ethics and bad business for them, since it's tarnished their name.

 

 

 

I assume there's a law that protects your rights as a consumer when you 'buy a digital product' and I don't think a distinction is made for Early Access. You hand money over for that product, regardless of its state. I'm pretty sure there's a legal issue there because I had to go rooting through a ton of consumer laws years ago to confront Overclockers UK with an issue and I remember reading something about digital purchases.

 

I could go rooting again looking for links but I can't honestly be bothered...

 

 

There are, but there's nothing you can really claim for in this case. Technically the game is going to V 1.0 and it won't really be classified as abandonware since it will (allegedly) keep getting some support to fix minor bugs. Maybe false advertisement? The thing is in just about everywhere in Early Access areas it explicitly states that the game might not become finished and people are buying into it understanding that.

 

Basically, legally. It's on their sides not ours.

[EnigmaGrey]

Then I'll guess you have to sue them from the UK, unless something in Steam's contract legally makes you treat it as being under US law (whether that's legal or not will also depend on your jurisdiction).

You paid for it and you got early access builds of that product, though, right? That's all EA ever promised.

[Connall]

Then I'll guess you have to sue them from the UK, unless something in Steam's contract legally makes you treat it as being under US law (whether that's legal or not will also depend on your jurisdiction).

You paid for it and you got early access builds of that product, though, right? That's all EA ever promised.

 

Comes under EU consumer laws if I'm not mistaken. Checked their site over, nothing is really covered by this sort of eventuality.

[bvhv]

Have you guys heard of "the stomping land" now that is true abandonment.

[Rathlord]

Consumer law doesn't technically protect purchasers on Steam in most parts of the world anyways. Thanks to Valve's clever (and, frankly, evil) ToU and EULA, you aren't making a purchase when you "buy" a game on Steam- you're renting a license agreement that they can terminate at any time for no reason whatsoever. I tried to raise awareness of this a few years ago by posting a clear dissection of the ToU on the Valve forums to show people exactly what they were agreeing to, and promptly had my forum account banned and all of my content erased. When I asked them to reconsider, they threatened to pull the plug on my entire account. So.

 

Tl;dr no, you have absolutely no consumer protection when purchasing from Steam. There has been one or two hopefully court rulings from the EU, but if you're American or from most other parts of the world you're right fucked.

 

And yes, what Double Fine has done is indubitably scummy and will continue the trend of tarnishing the public appearance of EA and alpha/beta game sales, which is truly unfortunate. While they may not be legally or contractually obligated to finish their products, it's still bad business, bad manner, and bad for the business.

[CylonBookworm]

Exactly, Rathlord. It's one reason why I fought against Bohemia Interactive's move to steam til the bitter end, all in vain of course because despite them polling the community, they never had any intention of doing anything but Steam.

[nasKo]

Have you guys heard of "the stomping land" now that is true abandonment.

It's a lack of communication. The game has not been abandoned, according to their community hub.

[Kajin]

Isn't Double Fine the company founded by the guy who made Psychonaughts? Tim Schafer? Huh... I thought he was good at making games. Guess maybe he's not that great at running a business.

[nasKo]

To be fair to Double Fine they are developing in one of the most expenses cities ever and they already pay 10k a month out to each employee.

Not sure if it's a language thing in that sentence, but they aren't paying their employees (a wage of) 10k a month, that's just what an employee costs a month.

Two different things that many people are misinterpreting where the topic is being discussed.

That's still pretty high and as Binky said leads to:

 

[...] basically requiring your game to be one of the most successful Early Access games ever in order to have enough money to finish it. This is, frankly, an insane and (dare I say it?) arrogant assumption.

[RobertJohnson]

Oh god, I've been Ninja'd ?

[zombo]

Wasn't this just on sale quite recently?  Yup it was, I did a quick search, it was half price, sale started on Sep. 3rd, not sure how long it lasted.  It could have been a last resort attempt to bring in enough money to keep going, but for a lot of people that's going to look very bad.

[Ryot]

Essentially, I think EA necessitates some sort of BBB for developers. A consumer protection agency that just aggregates complaints with developers, judges them based on their merits, and facilitates open communication in an effort to allow a developer to address those complaints - but also giving a rating to those developers who obviously don't care about the product they put out.

[Kajin]

Every time someone says EA in this thread I can't help but think Electronic Arts. I do not enjoy being reminded of those dickbags -.-

[Viceroy]

Lol, I find myself going "Argh! Electronic Arts!" everytime I see EA as well.

 

On the topic, Binky said it on his blog pretty well and what Rathlord added about the ToU also I gotta agree with.

[Keepbro]

Well to be fair to EA (Electronic Arts) they wouldn't screw you like this by early accessing one of their games and then abandoning it mid-development. No they are far more professionally crappy.

 

What they'd do is buy all the rights to one of your favorite franchises, make a game in their superduper state of the art studios, do a massive publicity splurge telling everyone about the game they've made and then when they release it it turns out to be complete shit.

 

##COUGHCOUGHSYNDICATECOUGHCOUGHSIMCITYCOUGHCOUGH##

 

At least Electronic Arts are professional fucktards who see a project through to its aborted birth and pathetic life and forgotten death rather than the unprofessional Double Fine not even having the decency to make a frigging game from start to finish.