Operation Killing you... not there yet :)

[FreedomFighter]

On default game, food isn't really problem but the water is when water system cut-off. New player who are not aware of this will get kill due to dehydration quickly. The zombies are already danger on it own when they are in mass. Even 1-1 is still dangerous if you are not 2,000% careful while fighting it. As in my point of view. The zombies are fine but the environment still need to bully player more. If we could replicate what Don't Starve did and implement it in PZ, it would make "Killing you" project much more brutal. Winter start going to be real suck.

[Etsamaru]

We don't need scripted attacks, we just need large hordes randomly walking across the map that will attack your built structures if they sense you. I'm talking a horde of 100+ zombies just wandering back and forth all over even if they are just simulated until they are near you. EVENTUALLY they will find you and it won't be forced, it will be bad luck that they find you.

[SailorWolf]

On default game, food isn't really problem but the water is when water system cut-off. New player who are not aware of this will get kill due to dehydration quickly. The zombies are already danger on it own when they are in mass. Even 1-1 is still dangerous if you are not 2,000% careful while fighting it. As in my point of view. The zombies are fine but the environment still need to bully player more. If we could replicate what Don't Starve did and implement it in PZ, it would make "Killing you" project much more brutal. Winter start going to be real suck.

 

Hi FreedomFighter  good to see you play this game too  I think winter could be a big factor in making the game harder. Such as no crops growing also on really cold days you would have to stay indoors or near a fire so it would make a player stock up on supplies for winter.

 

I agree with you about the zeds all it takes is one careless move by the player to end up infected. LOL happens to me a lot...last game was 6 months 3 days, over 2700 zombies killed. I just got cocky and careless  

[Sadeyx]

 

...last game was 6 months 3 days, over 2700 zombies killed. I just got cocky and careless

 

Or maybe bored and wanted to start a new game

[FreedomFighter]

 

On default game, food isn't really problem but the water is when water system cut-off. New player who are not aware of this will get kill due to dehydration quickly. The zombies are already danger on it own when they are in mass. Even 1-1 is still dangerous if you are not 2,000% careful while fighting it. As in my point of view. The zombies are fine but the environment still need to bully player more. If we could replicate what Don't Starve did and implement it in PZ, it would make "Killing you" project much more brutal. Winter start going to be real suck.

 

Hi FreedomFighter  good to see you play this game too  I think winter could be a big factor in making the game harder. Such as no crops growing also on really cold days you would have to stay indoors or near a fire so it would make a player stock up on supplies for winter.

 

I agree with you about the zeds all it takes is one careless move by the player to end up infected. LOL happens to me a lot...last game was 6 months 3 days, over 2700 zombies killed. I just got cocky and careless

 

 

I kept doing bite check every time after finish a fight with zeds. This went better when i playing with friend because if they refuse to check it, i will bash their head.

[Rass]

I did a little experiment today, to see how will a game go if my base is constantly surrounded by zombies. I started with sandbox settings "8 months after the apocalypse" (zombie amount-insane) in West Point and rushed to the big warehouse to get some basic tools. After that, I went straight here.

With insane zombie settings, the city centre is basically a single HUGE horde that would be impossible to fight even with the old fatigue system, so I used some diversion tactics and managed to sneak into the hardware store. After that, I looted all useful tools there and food from the food market next door, and finally made my base in the apartments above the food market on day 1.

On day 2, zombies started breaking into the shops below, so I chopped down a few doors and used the planks to block the stairs with a wall. Since going down into the street was not an option, I started building skybridges to the surrounding buildings, again using planks from doors as the materials.

I thought that I would be bound to the first floors forever, but the zombies in the street soon started to thin out. Soon, I was able to carefully clear them out and block off a big part of the street.

 

It was a thrilling adventure, but not what I expected. When I first arrived, the parking lot behind the post office was so crowded that it was almost impossible to run through without being grabbed and so were the surrounding streets. Now when I look there from my base, it's empty. Honestly, I have no idea if the few thousand zombies that were hanging around migrated somewhere else or just despawned, but what I DO know is that the perimeter of my base is clear and my character has only around 200 kills.

I think that the main problem is that metagame sounds affect hordes much more than sound produced by the player. Construction and chopping trees should make much more noise, me building a wall didn't attract zombies that were like 20 meters away from me.

[Ohbal]

I agree! Player has to be the main attract factor for Zombies, and not the meta events, which, by the way, I think are way too numerous. I hear a couple of gunshots every night while I sleep for example...  those noisy neightbours... 

[MrZombifiedGamer]

NPC's will fix this issue. It has been stated before that until NPC's are released there's really nothing they can do. Your complaints are valid but have been addressed before numerous times. Once NPC's are in they'll steal your loot, they'll raid you, they'll do things to advance your story and thus making the game more difficult.

 

The same applies for the meta-game I believe. Everything should function appropriately and sufficiently once the final piece of the puzzle is put in.

[Ohbal]

NPCs can't be the single answer for any gameplay mechanic not working as intended, right?

 

I think the points raised about the amounts of Zs running low around the player are quite valid and I can't see how the NPCs are linked to them. They could draw even more attention away from the player.

[MrZombifiedGamer]

I've never experienced that problem. Zombies seem to be attracted to me even when sneaking at a safe distance away. So I would argue that the fact they can see through buildings his a bigger issue. lol Maybe they can't see through buildings but idk why they can detect me through walls without windows if they can't.

 

But anyway, my point is that I'm concerned that any attempt to balance with NPC's not being in will be met with huge problems when NPC's get reintroduced. I see a very big issue arising right now of people saying it's too easy, then when NPC's get introduced those same people feeling cheated due to difficulty. 

[EnigmaGrey]

This is because zombies are now given invisible sound cues as to where the player is. This also causes them to clump. It's the same technique used to move zombies around in Last Stand.

Not sure how that could be fixed.

[Svarog]

This is because zombies are now given invisible sound cues as to where the player is. This also causes them to clump. It's the same technique used to move zombies around in Last Stand.

Not sure how that could be fixed.

Well, that would explain why that one time when I was foraging it attracted about 50 zombies from the woods all around me (there was NONE when I started and a horde by the time I was done) Foraging is like a gunshot.

[WildOats]

I think it would be good if zombie attacks on base were more common, but I don't think scripting them fits with the whole meta game aspect of the zomboid.

 

Instead, would it be possible to have a system similar to how herds work in the walking dead comics, where if one zombie walks past a door and brushes it another will mistake that for an attempt to get in, and start bashing away, causing more and zombies to do the same? This way you could have hords sweeping through neighborhoods smashing down all the doors, maybe depositing some zombies in houses to catch you unawares.

[Lunov]

Zeds bashing all the doors is definitely a bad idea. Why they should want to get in without any subject? Look into the nature of zeds. They want to eat living. Living things make sounds. They follow sounds.

I also dont think that all focus of zeds should be on player. Meta sounds are too often, I agree. But if my house is surrounded and I dont make any sounds, why shouldnt they follow the gunshot? Imagine something like WoW boss threat meter. More damage you make, more focus you have - here with the sounds.

I agree that severity of sounds player is making should be tweaked to attract zeds more.

 

But guys, seriously: you dont wanna die if playing carefully, you just wanna feel the fear, that death is near if you make a bad step.

[Ohbal]

But guys, seriously: you dont wanna die if playing carefully, you just wanna feel the fear, that death is near if you make a bad step.

 

I really don't have the feeling of playing carefully at the moment, once I reach the mentioned "safe status", aka I have a safe house and farming going on. There is no danger comming my way, only time passing. 

 

My build 30 test char is now on its 2.5 months alive, last 1.5 spent on my safe house, farming. I've chopped hundreds of trees, and hammered four times as many planks. I think I have like 20 Z's bodies or so around my safe house, that's all the attraction I draw in 45 days while making all kind of "human" sounds. 

 

Not sure how that could be fixed.

 

I'd asume the parameters built to move the zombies can be tweaked or completely changed, right?

 

The Meta events may have worked in the past, with smaller maps and less survival options, but right now I think they break more than they fix. 

 

I'm the first one who normally would be against scripting, but I keep getting to the game limitations in terms of streaming content, so I think the options are quite limited. You can increase drastically the amount of attention draw by the player sounds, but once you clear the area, killing the hundreds around you, migrations seems to be happening very slowly... which points me again in the scripting direction. 

[mascou]

 

I really don't have the feeling of playing carefully at the moment, once I reach the mentioned "safe status", aka I have a safe house and farming going on. There is no danger comming my way, only time passing. 

 

My build 30 test char is now on its 2.5 months alive, last 1.5 spent on my safe house, farming. I've chopped hundreds of trees, and hammered four times as many planks. I think I have like 20 Z's bodies or so around my safe house, that's all the attraction I draw in 45 days while making all kind of "human" sounds.

 

I'd asume the parameters built to move the zombies can be tweaked or completely changed, right?

 

The Meta events may have worked in the past, with smaller maps and less survival options, but right now I think they break more than they fix. 

 

I'm the first one who normally would be against scripting, but I keep getting to the game limitations in terms of streaming content, so I think the options are quite limited. You can increase drastically the amount of attention draw by the player sounds, but once you clear the area, killing the hundreds around you, migrations seems to be happening very slowly... which points me again in the scripting direction. 

 

 

 

I believe zombie re-spawn mechanics will be a key towards keeping us threatened throughout the game. How so?

Think minecraft; in minecraft; monsters have a chance to spawn wherever the light level is under a certain threshold.

What do you do first in minecraft to survive ? Block monster spawn at your safe-place by lighting it up with a few torches.

 

We recently got a re-spawn parameter in the sandbox options; basically my point is it's own limitations are by far too strict.

How so?

Spawning is limited in tiles you have visited within your sandbox interval AND tiles inside you have created player contraptions.

- First, building a single barricade will limit re-spawn in an entire tile

- Secondly, a tile if i recall correctly, is a HUGE square on the map (think an entire block of houses)

 

I think the re-spawn mechanics are currently mis-tweaked as it inevitably will only work on tiles you have not played yet, therefor not changing anything in your own game-play.

Once you've cleared the street you live in, you're probably not going to see anything happen anymore.

 

Then there's also the problem of making zombies you haven't loaded actually roam as hordes.

[bumblemore]

I'm routing for the undead to go a little further afield. 

 

EDIT: Has anybody considered the noise that might be created once vehicles are implemented? Nuthin' like the roar of an engine to get the walkers walking.

[Lunov]

 

But guys, seriously: you dont wanna die if playing carefully, you just wanna feel the fear, that death is near if you make a bad step.

 

I really don't have the feeling of playing carefully at the moment, once I reach the mentioned "safe status", aka I have a safe house and farming going on. There is no danger comming my way, only time passing. 

 

My build 30 test char is now on its 2.5 months alive, last 1.5 spent on my safe house, farming. I've chopped hundreds of trees, and hammered four times as many planks. I think I have like 20 Z's bodies or so around my safe house, that's all the attraction I draw in 45 days while making all kind of "human" sounds. 

 

 

Did you also read what I have written before? You probably didnt get the idea. You as the player want to survive. But to have a feeling of some achievement being made and feeling that you are enjoying the game, constant threat needs to be present, which means that the danger of death should be real.

I am not speaking about current game state but of the most basic principles.

[Rass]

 

 

I really don't have the feeling of playing carefully at the moment, once I reach the mentioned "safe status", aka I have a safe house and farming going on. There is no danger comming my way, only time passing. 

 

My build 30 test char is now on its 2.5 months alive, last 1.5 spent on my safe house, farming. I've chopped hundreds of trees, and hammered four times as many planks. I think I have like 20 Z's bodies or so around my safe house, that's all the attraction I draw in 45 days while making all kind of "human" sounds.

 

I'd asume the parameters built to move the zombies can be tweaked or completely changed, right?

 

The Meta events may have worked in the past, with smaller maps and less survival options, but right now I think they break more than they fix. 

 

I'm the first one who normally would be against scripting, but I keep getting to the game limitations in terms of streaming content, so I think the options are quite limited. You can increase drastically the amount of attention draw by the player sounds, but once you clear the area, killing the hundreds around you, migrations seems to be happening very slowly... which points me again in the scripting direction. 

 

 

 

I believe zombie re-spawn mechanics will be a key towards keeping us threatened throughout the game. How so?

Think minecraft; in minecraft; monsters have a chance to spawn wherever the light level is under a certain threshold.

What do you do first in minecraft to survive ? Block monster spawn at your safe-place by lighting it up with a few torches.

 

We recently got a re-spawn parameter in the sandbox options; basically my point is it's own limitations are by far too strict.

How so?

Spawning is limited in tiles you have visited within your sandbox interval AND tiles inside you have created player contraptions.

- First, building a single barricade will limit re-spawn in an entire tile

- Secondly, a tile if i recall correctly, is a HUGE square on the map (think an entire block of houses)

 

I think the re-spawn mechanics are currently mis-tweaked as it inevitably will only work on tiles you have not played yet, therefor not changing anything in your own game-play.

Once you've cleared the street you live in, you're probably not going to see anything happen anymore.

 

Then there's also the problem of making zombies you haven't loaded actually roam as hordes.

Actually, I'm not sure if this is working as intended. I had a single zombie respawn inside of my base every now and then. The place was barricaded with no way in except for sheet ropes and I never even left it.

That being said, the zombie respawn seemed to be so slow that it wasn't really a threat.

[moztacular]

To add my two cents, after about a year of off and on attempts to get into the game I finally got a good character going for about 2 months now and see the good potential of everything.

 

I do agree NPCs are really this games best option for increased survival challenge unless they decide to break lore and create some "special infected" that could pose more serious risk. 

 

If anyone has played State of Decay, I think that game had a wonderful if flawed system of side activities that gave the player opportunities to venture out into the world to rescue NPCs from your camp, retrieve gear, recruit a new member to your group, etc. I'm not sure if Zomboid will be robust enough to let you have a base with friendly NPCs that you can manage (think the walking dead governor/Woodberry scenario), but it would provide additional challenge if you received radio calls for help or supply requests that you could accept or ignore based on what you feel like doing. This would force you to head out into the world rather than stay holed up on a rooftop.

 

Furthermore, if you can indeed have named NPCs living in your base, I know that I would personally become invested in keeping them alive and would definitely go rushing out to save someone if I got a radio call that one of my favorite buddies was stranded out in town somewhere. If they added NPC children and such you could get a nice TellTale's Walking Dead scenario where you could be trying to take care of a kid only to have him/her wander off or something and you desperately going around trying to find/save them...to me that'd be super exciting and provide lots of emergent gameplay opportunities. Running through the streets carrying an injured comrade, unable to attack the horde following you would be tense and fun (in my mind!)

 

It would make the game "harder" in the sense that you would be putting yourself more and more at risk, but this would require NPC and AI in general to be very robust; if you go out and rescue someone, they had better be able to navigate their way back to base with you or on their own.

[sweetcandyflip]

The biggest problem is see when i play PZ is the Zombie AI itself. There should be some random behaviour in the AI and not just the basic state of Agro/De-Agro and run towards sounds/events....

 

For Example:

 

You can agro the whole parking lot in front of the mall (insane) at once. Just run run through those massive horde until you pulled them all - If you use your stamina properly (even with fast shamblers) thats not very difficult, even with no skillpoints in running. When you have all the agro on you, you can basically run in circles until you gathered them behind you. Then run into the next camp fire which you placed a bit offroad and see them all burning at once..

 

Repeat with Warehouse, Gun Store and other POI and thats it.... Your are hands will stay clean that way....

 

Even if you choose not to burn them, you can use the circle tactic to distract them and park those zombies somewhere else to loot your POI safely.....

 

Well i guess its a traffic based problem... More AI means more Server traffic which leads to big lags especially with that huge amount of Z. Thats why those games generally use really basic AI zombies (DayZ, H1Z1, Miscreated). Still those games seem more challenging cause they are based on a 3D Engine..

[Jatta Pake]

Late Game

 

I've said this before, but increasing the difficulty across the board can disproportionately make the Early Game harder but have no affect on the Late Game.* I think the Water and Power cut off provides the best model for Operation Killing You. As the game progresses, new difficulties should be introduced.

 

• Winter - No crops grow. Foraging food severally reduced. Risk of exposure/hypothermia when outside.
• Violent Weather - Storms could damage player made structures requiring repairs. Storms could destroy crops.
• Disease - The pollution from zombie corpses littering the area could increase the chances of getting sick. Sick characters could pass along illnesses.
• Feral Dogs - Wild dog packs should spawn from the edges of the maps.
• Other Animals - As nature started reclaiming man's cities, wild animal populations would explode. Bears, boars, cougars would present dangers to survivors.
• Mental Health - Extended periods of mental health moodles (Anxiety, Boredom, Depression, Starving, Dehydration) should build up over time. Characters should start acquiring permanent stress related mental health disorders.
• Water - Re-work water so there are different types: Fresh, Stagnant, and Foul. Water should go bad over time.
• NPC Enemies - Less friendly NPCs should spawn as time goes on. Groups of NPC enemies should spawn at the edges of the map.
• NPC Allies - Conflicts within player survivor groups should arise over time. Safety should breed complacency and social drama. Love triangles. Personality conflicts. Fights over leadership.
• Accidents - Using any skill should have a small chance of critical failure if the character is doing the skill in dangerous situations (panicked, depressed, angry, starving, dehydrated, intoxicated, drenched, freezing, too hot, sick). Anything from small cuts to sprained ankles to head injuries.
• Fires - Natural spontaneous combustion happens when exothermic internal reactions cause thermal runaway leading to ignition. Bacterial fermentation (rot) would be happening in all abandoned human structures especially those open to the elements from broken doors and windows. And as lightening rods fell apart, lightening would cause more structure fires.
• Pests - Infestations would destroy crops and food stores.

Introduce these new dangers as time goes on and the Late Game will get progressively more difficult.

 

* Your character is weaker in the Early Game than the Late Game. In the Late Game, you have more survival items and skills to cope with the challenges of the game. You also probably have less zombies. Making everything more difficult in the Early Game may result in characters not getting to the Late Game but it still leaves a "Survival Filter" that a character can pass through to reach a safer Late Game existence. Consequently, the game environment needs to become more difficult as time goes on. Survival should be a race between the character and the environment.

[Ohbal]

I specially like your suggestions for Winter, Storms, Feral dogs and other animals, and Water... but I think you basically nailed it here

 

[...]

 

increasing the difficulty across the board can disproportionately make the Early Game harder but have no affect on the Late Game.* I think the Water and Power cut off provides the best model for Operation Killing You. As the game progresses, new difficulties should be introduced.

 

[...]

 

Making everything more difficult in the Early Game may result in characters not getting to the Late Game but it still leaves a "Survival Filter" that a character can pass through to reach a safer Late Game existence. Consequently, the game environment needs to become more difficult as time goes on. Survival should be a race between the character and the environment.

[Lunov]

Pretty much said everything, though water degradation is irrelevant and I dont like the "edge of the map"

[MrZombifiedGamer]

Late Game

 

I've said this before, but increasing the difficulty across the board can disproportionately make the Early Game harder but have no affect on the Late Game.* I think the Water and Power cut off provides the best model for Operation Killing You. As the game progresses, new difficulties should be introduced.

 

• Winter - No crops grow. Foraging food severally reduced. Risk of exposure/hypothermia when outside.
• Violent Weather - Storms could damage player made structures requiring repairs. Storms could destroy crops.
• Disease - The pollution from zombie corpses littering the area could increase the chances of getting sick. Sick characters could pass along illnesses.
• Feral Dogs - Wild dog packs should spawn from the edges of the maps.
• Other Animals - As nature started reclaiming man's cities, wild animal populations would explode. Bears, boars, cougars would present dangers to survivors.
• Mental Health - Extended periods of mental health moodles (Anxiety, Boredom, Depression, Starving, Dehydration) should build up over time. Characters should start acquiring permanent stress related mental health disorders.
• Water - Re-work water so there are different types: Fresh, Stagnant, and Foul. Water should go bad over time.
• NPC Enemies - Less friendly NPCs should spawn as time goes on. Groups of NPC enemies should spawn at the edges of the map.
• NPC Allies - Conflicts within player survivor groups should arise over time. Safety should breed complacency and social drama. Love triangles. Personality conflicts. Fights over leadership.
• Accidents - Using any skill should have a small chance of critical failure if the character is doing the skill in dangerous situations (panicked, depressed, angry, starving, dehydrated, intoxicated, drenched, freezing, too hot, sick). Anything from small cuts to sprained ankles to head injuries.
• Fires - Natural spontaneous combustion happens when exothermic internal reactions cause thermal runaway leading to ignition. Bacterial fermentation (rot) would be happening in all abandoned human structures especially those open to the elements from broken doors and windows. And as lightening rods fell apart, lightening would cause more structure fires.
• Pests - Infestations would destroy crops and food stores.

Introduce these new dangers as time goes on and the Late Game will get progressively more difficult.

 

* Your character is weaker in the Early Game than the Late Game. In the Late Game, you have more survival items and skills to cope with the challenges of the game. You also probably have less zombies. Making everything more difficult in the Early Game may result in characters not getting to the Late Game but it still leaves a "Survival Filter" that a character can pass through to reach a safer Late Game existence. Consequently, the game environment needs to become more difficult as time goes on. Survival should be a race between the character and the environment.

 

This is partially what I've been saying. NPC's and other things from nature will eventually erode your lifespan.