MP, griefing, and permadeath

[Invader Jim]

There has been some discussion about griefing.  I have played MP several times, never more than an hour at a time. I find it lacking and it just isn't fun for me. I do think it might be better with a small group of friends.

 

In any case, does death mean anything in MP?  People just create a new character, right?  If there was permadeath in MP a griefer might be less likely to grief because eventually they will be all alone and being all alone is no fun for a griefer.  Also, with permadeath the griefer could be killed and those who had been harassed could continue PZ life without him.  Permadeath would make everyone think twice about who to trust and who to kill or steal from. The lack of permadeath really strongly favors griefers in my opinion because they have an endless supply of victims and little to no real consequences for being an asshat.

[deprav]

Well, death is perma since when you die you lose all your skill points, items etc... Your character dies permanently, but you can do a new one immediatly after you died.

What would be nice tho, would be a temporary "ban" after your death, maybe adjustable by the admins, from 1h to 24h. That would make players think twice before trying anything dangerous or making ennemies ;o
(Would aslo make it harder to get your loot back since you wouldn't be able to run straight back to it as soon as you die)

[Rathlord]

I seem to recall this option being discussed by the devs at one point; hopefully it's something we'll see as a server option in the future.

[Jela331]

I'd love to see an option for perma-death in multiplayer. If someone finds your base and you kill him, he wont just respawn and go back and loot you.

[Vantus]

I'm very much in favour of a configurable "cool down" before allowing dead players back into the same server.

 

Maybe either use their IP address or some form of GUID or perhaps even have the lock applied by the dead player's client rather than server-side.

(ie. Upon death. the Client blocks itself from connecting to the same IP until X-time has passed)

 

Of course there would be work-arounds like resetting their IP or doing a quick reinstall of the game but it would be enough of an inconvenience to work as a soft deterrent from griefing. There's always whitelisting, passwording and banning for the most diehard of griefers.

[MadDan]

This wouldn't stop people and they'd only become more hostile towards others becaue they're afraid of losing their stuff and not being able to join the server for a while. I think it's a very bad choice, MP is almost as good as it can be minus the bugs and FPS in WP centre. Couldn't server admins just deal with anyone acting too unfair towards newcomers?

Maybe there's something that could change my mind but not so far. Don't you think it would become a one-sided killing spree because the ones that do can constantly kill the ones that respawn after whatever time they reconnect which I also disagree with having a time limit to reconnect.

If it was all optional, better, but most servers might choose hardcore settings and others new player settimgs and nothing inbetween. Those are my opinions, maybe someone can change ny mind with something.

[Vantus]

 Don't you think it would become a one-sided killing spree because the ones that do can constantly kill the ones that respawn after whatever time they reconnect which I also disagree with having a time limit to reconnect.

 

Apparently, the kill-on-sight or "farming" of new spawns happens already. This is why I have never played on public servers, which is a pity since it's also why I no longer play DayZ. 

 

What the suggestion is attempting to achieve is a deterrent for griefers. Genuine PVP is one thing (protecting your base or not taking a chance with a suspicious player) but seeking to outright destroy other people's enjoyment for fun or to have a shared 'lol' with pals watching over their shoulder is a bit of a bummer.

 

Currently if a griefer is killed mid-mischief, he/she can just run straight back to the point of mischief and continue causing trouble.

Say a person finds your base and attempts to ruin your hardwork for no reason. You defend your base, well done! But sadly the determined troll has an infinite number of retries to run back to your base and try to screw you over. Over and over and over and over and over until one of you quit (And lets face it, if you quit first you know what's going to happen to your base).

 

Adding a permadeath or "reconnect cool-down" option means the griefer can't keep trying. If they have to wait a while before they can return to destroy somebody's work then it's no fun for them and they move on to another server without a lock-out.

Most griefers don't care if they're banned from a server, they just move on to the next.

 

But on the flip-side, yes I can appreciate that a legitimate death from say, a Zombie, could be frustrating if you can't get back in for a while.

To that I'd say play on a server without "perma-death".

 

I'm aaaaalways in favour of having extra options!

I might actually be tempted to play on a public server if I knew I only had one life. Kind of like the "Survivor Games" game mode that people play across multiple online games.

[Viceroy]

Yeah being unable to respawn means that a griefer can just shoot you from afar and fuck you over. I am not in favor of this.

[Connall]

People are under the impression a griefer isn't just going to connect to another server if he dies, or causes his damage to the server. This doesn't really stop griefing, it just makes the griefers job even easier.

 

I'm so, so on permadeath. Can be an interesting feature but could only really be utilised in trusted player base servers or locked off servers that have whitelists.

[Anvilman6]

I think respawn cooldown would be an interesting addition, however the situations under which it comes into effect would have to be clear-cut, as being locked out for being killed by a zed, or even by the bandit raiding your base would, in my mind, take away from the game and make it frustrating.

[deprav]

This wouldn't stop people and they'd only become more hostile towards others becaue they're afraid of losing their stuff and not being able to join the server for a while.I think it's a very bad choice, MP is almost as good as it can be minus the bugs and FPS in WP centre.

Well that's precisely the point of an apocalyptic survival game with perma-death ! Hostility, nerves, surviving etc... And there's so much more to be added to the MP, I don't think you realize how epic it will be yet xD

I don't see how cooldown would affect newcomers and make the game a "one-sided slaughter" tho. It's impossible to camp spawn points considering there multiple, and probably will grow in number. When you connect unarmed to a hostile world, you better be ready to lay low if you don't want to get your ass killed and looted, cooldown or not.

On the other hand, admins aren't always here and able to help people, but cooldown can help players getting a break from constantly respawning griefers. And people abusing constantly would still get reported and delt with by admins. Cooldown doesn't replace bans.

You guys seem to think that griefer is a fulltime job and all the griefers born and die griefers. Most of the time they're just players like everyone who got bored and exploit the game with another character for a bit, but if griefing with another character have repercussions on their main one as well, they'll probably think twice. (IP cooldown)

 

Yeah being unable to respawn means that a griefer can just shoot you from afar and fuck you over.

 

?

I don't see how being able to respawn directly would change this. You could still get shot from afar over and over, but by the same guy respawning over and over as well.

 

 

This doesn't really stop griefing, it just makes the griefers job even easier.

 

 

I really don't see how cooldowns would help griefing, and "real griefers" would still get their ass banned anyway. The only griefers I've seen attacking someone safehouses got their ass wrecked a couple of times before they actually killed people. So instead of trying again and again, they would have just got shot once, end of the story.

People would actually think twice before approaching someone with safety-off as well.

 

 

 

And on another note, cooldown isn't just about griefing, it's about immersion as well ! PZ is supposed to be "the story of how you died", if I can just respawn over and over like in any other game, it loses its goal.

In its actual state people just don't care about their character, they'll just make a new one right after they died and get their loot back anyway... so much for a survival game.

Interraction between players would be deepen as well, instead of being reckless and careless.

But yeah I agree that it should be an option and up to the server owner to decide the lenght of Cooldowns.

EDIT :

 

 

I think respawn cooldown would be an interesting addition, however the situations under which it comes into effect would have to be clear-cut, as being locked out for being killed by a zed, or even by the bandit raiding your base would, in my mind, take away from the game and make it frustrating.

 

read the above + the pleasure of gaming precisely comes from frustration, the gap between winning (well, surviving in PZ) and failure.

What's the point of playing a survival game if "not surviving" doesn't affect you in any way ?

[MadDan]

Not gonna be a long post since I'm on my phone, however I think the "fun" of it would be elimanated. Why wouldn't someone armed kill a new player they meet just to cause frustration outside of the game with the cooldown and keep doing it to others? Admin's may not always be available, but when they are they can do a much better job than a system when they are.

Surviving will affect you in many ways (end-game) being one aspect and SAID also. No need to cause extreme frustration for people with bad internet having an extra waiting time to re-join.

[deprav]

Why wouldn't someone armed kill a new player they meet just to cause frustration outside of the game with the cooldown and keep doing it to others?

 

I'll just copy what I already said and you seemed to have missed on your phone ^^

"And people abusing constantly would still get reported and delt with by admins. Cooldown doesn't replace bans."

"You guys seem to think that griefer is a fulltime job and all the griefers born and die griefers. Most of the time they're just players, like everyone else, who got bored and exploit the game with another character for a bit. But if griefing with another character have repercussions on their main one as well, they'll probably think twice. (IP cooldown/IP ban)"

 

Admin's may not always be available, but when they are they can do a much better job than a system when they are.

 

 

Yep, Admins always do a better job than anything else ;o but in the meantime, they're not always here ! and as I said, cooldown isn't just about griefers, it's about immersion and a deeper commitment to your role/character as well.

 

 

 

Surviving will affect you in many ways (end-game) being one aspect and SAID also. No need to cause extreme frustration for people with bad internet having an extra waiting time to re-join.

 

There's no end-game, the end-game is dying !

People with bad internet is a bit out of the subject imo.

[tomtentp]

Not picking sides or anything but I agree with deprav here.

 

A survival game is suppose to be hard, dieing from a single scratch is suppose to hurt. I've seen so many games go from hardcore to softcore just because of the same mentality, to avoid frustration. But frustration is actually what triggers us to enjoy the game in the first place.

 

Mutliplayer is new and intrigueing for everyone right now. But I'm pretty sure after a couple of months/years playing "World of Warcraft Zomboid".... It will get pretty lame and lose it's touch.

 

Permadeath is a bit overkill and will be very hard to retain, especially with cheaters etc. But as an option it would open the doors to interesting mods and niches of servers for sure.

 

Having said that, I think things like these need to be tested before anyone can truely know how the outcome will be.

[MadDan]

On paper, at least for me it sounds like a horrible idea, it's wait and see for me now honestly. Sure something has to be done, but it has to be done right or it would be problematic. Frustration causing enjoyment is different for many people, I had those "rage" games personally. Regardless of what happens, I'm not in favour of a timeout feature. Imagine playing any game that you own and then dying, being put back to the menu and not being able to join for 15 minutes. Can't your loot just disappear? Both are unrealistic but there's a line there.

 

Sort of off-topic: I'm sort of surprised I entered a MP discussion to shape its future, I was never interested in MP at all but after playing it, it's been more than I expected. I was always an NPC person.  

 

I have no more opinions on this, I'm just frustrated as is not being able to join with the 3D models, "converting world" where are my saves located for MP? I need to delete them probably. They also swing from the left which is just wrong and looks odd.

[Vantus]

The major point that shouldn't be missed is that this "cool down" being proposed should be entirely optional.

 

Some people play online privately with their own friends/family (myself for example).

Others play on public servers and encounter no trouble.

Others play on public servers and find it too easy.

Others play on public servers and get hounded by trolls and griefers.

 

I think having a "Permadeath" option or a secondary "Reconnect Timer" setting would help cater to everyone from all corners.

It should also be clearly labeled as such so that people know what they are getting into BEFORE they connect.

Server hosts could choose to use it. They could choose not to. This way you can continue to play the game the way it is, or change it to suit your needs. We almost have them already with the "ServerSetting.exe", it's just missing a permadeath / cool-down option.

 

I far prefer configurable servers as opposed to replacing the default to suit a community niche. 

[FawkesGaming]

Perhaps instead of being locked out the server, you can follow different players with a sort of death cam.

[tomtentp]

...

...Imagine playing any game that you own and then dying, being put back to the menu and not being able to join for 15 minutes. Can't your loot just disappear? Both are unrealistic but there's a line there.

...

I rather not have the loot disappear as that would mean there is no point for bandits to kill you, meaning that there will not be any bandits only griefers who like to make people suffer for nothing. So it's quite important that you drop something when you die.

 

And for the 15 minutes, you could just log into another server or a singeplayer game if you got too much abstinence.

 

It's not like we are talking about days here 

[Rathlord]

Your loot only disappears if someone steals it. What is hilariously unrealistic and completely out-of-character and power gaming is people like you who immediately run back to their corpses for their loot. It's the shittiest form of roleplaying possible in PZ.

 

And it's not like stuff just disappears magically on its own in PZ. So I really don't understand your argument at all.

[MadDan]

Your loot only disappears if someone steals it. What is hilariously unrealistic and completely out-of-character and power gaming is people like you who immediately run back to their corpses for their loot. It's the shittiest form of roleplaying possible in PZ.

 

And it's not like stuff just disappears magically on its own in PZ. So I really don't understand your argument at all.

Rather unnecessarily rude don't you think? Just because you might disagree, I don't think that would be deserved unless I was slightly rude, which I don't think I was, was I?

 

Anyway, I don't play like that at all in SP, only in these stages of MP. I don't RP in PZ I just don't find that fun, ArmA is something that I would, it just differs from game to game.

 

Maybe my posts did get a little messy and unorganized since they were separate. Let me put it in simpler form: I', not against a punishment, as long as it's not incredibly harsh and implemented correctly. You see what state DayZ and Rust are in, I don't want that to be PZ in the long run. I've never played Rust or DayZ, but as far as I can tell it's not greatly functioning, maybe I'm wrong in that regard. Again: My Opinions.

[Rathlord]

My apologies; didn't intend to come off rude. But, from my perspective, it appeared in your post that you were complaining that a side-effect of this would reduce power gaming, which to me is always a good thing and never a reason not to do something.

[deprav]

Imagine playing any game that you own and then dying, being put back to the menu and not being able to join for 15 minutes.

 

 

I'd probably take a crap and make some tea. And if the cooldown is 10h long, I'd probably play some music or watch some series and do some other stuffs. Life doesn't stop when you can't play a game you own ;o

It seems like most people who are strictly against the idea only approach the question from a subjective point of view, like : "HELL NAW ! Can you imagine not being able to play a game I PAID for a couple of hours ! this is outrageous !"

But that's precisely the point of that mechanism. If YOU (all of you) don't want to die and be unable to play for an hour or more, most people will probably think the exact same thing. If you take a step back and try to be a bit more objective, you'll realize no one wants to die in a survival game, and no one wants to be unable to play a freaking awesome game like PZ, me first ;o. That's why that system would most likely work : people would be less reckless, more commited to their characters, and think twice before "doing something bad", because every action leads to a reaction, and killing someone is risking his group to seek revenge or a long vendetta with that person you killed (therefore, killing someone is risking to get killed in a near future)

It's not like the "Perma-death" got you banned from any server for a life time, it's jut a cooldown to make death more "palpable". The whole game revolves around death ; it shouldn't be something anodyne like in any multiplayer FPS where you just respawn and keep on doing what you're doing. Death must be something that matters.

Like in real paper&pen RPG, if your character dies... well... he dies forever, you can't finish the scenario/quest you were playing with your friends, and on the next scenario/quest you'll be playing, you'll have to start another character.

 

That said, it sure should be an option ! there's no need for such mechanics if you play with a few friends or on a proper RP server etc... But when we ever get persistent servers with a large number of players, that should be an essential feature.

[lemmy101]

the solution to griefing is to find a server with restricted access, and appeal to get a whitelist user/pass. this is also the solution to feeling alone. Join a community, and make friends in the server you join.

 

We'll add other things to help and do all we can to make public servers safe from griefing/hacking and fun, but really if you want to play on public servers then this is what you'll likely get. We've never once advised running or playing on public servers and believe that generally joining an MP community that will police their server and have the ability to permanently ban people via removal from whitelist is the only way to fully protect yourself from griefers or hackers.

 

It's cool that people are running public servers, but there is only so much we can do. It's always too easy to circumnavigate any grief/hack protection, so you'll always be getting a less than perfect experience unless you're lucky.

[MadDan]

My apologies; didn't intend to come off rude. But, from my perspective, it appeared in your post that you were complaining that a side-effect of this would reduce power gaming, which to me is always a good thing and never a reason not to do something.

Oh okay thanks, now I understand. I'm not entirely sure what I meant, my posts got mixed up and I wasn't typing them all from the same state of mind, if that makes sense. 

 

BTW, thanks lemmy for clearing that up now.

[lemmy101]

Read this thread for an insight into how the closed roleplay servers tend to be:

 

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/6949-the-best-roleplay-ive-ever-experienced-in-pz/

 

That's where the true PZ MP experience is. The server he mentions has auto registering use a steam account, which while means its open it also has more power to keep out wrong'uns. The threat of losing access, like a police force or a prison system in RL, acts as a good deterrent for shittiness.

 

I can't promise how trustworthy the steam account registration stuff is being only somewhat aware of it, and have to say you partake at your own risk. But the server op has run a server since day 1 of MP and seems to be a good un, so I'm inclined to think personally its all totally kosher.