Project Zomboid - This is how it Dies.

[Unamelable]

Just to be safe: I'm writing something I don't like, and many players may not like. And that's criticism, not hating. If this post is deleted, it means that The Indie Stone cannot accept objective criticism from the community.

 

I actively follow the game and youtubers who are active in the game, like: Nurse, Pr1vateLime, Arean, ambiguousamphibian, Spoodle, ThatGuyPredz. And last one uploaded a video where A slice of negativity (In particular the rawness of the multiplayer). Which prompted me to write what the game lacks, or is not brought to mind. The game is really full of bugs and general "unfinished" state.

 

First, I want to emphasize the absence of any bug fixes or hotfixes in the current build. Developers after the release of the last hotfix considered to have abandoned support for the game, showing that the game is "available" but it will be for for the update. What is worth the bug with the car where zombies bite you through a closed window. Since the last hotfix it's been a year, 18 posts have been released since then to show what work has been done on the new build, and not a single update to the current one. Of course, thanks to this, server holders can finally not update builds (because the frequency of updates will probably break the servers). But I hope that the developers will release a special beta branch so that server owners do not lose the progress of the game world for several months.

 

PvP combat in Project Zomboid is broken, and even now even if you play two players. You will have serious desychronization (aka void on the road). And it was obvious from the beginning because the game was positioned as a single player. And most likely the game engine was not originally designed for any interaction between players. But if you get hit by a player and you can't do anything in response - it speaks for itself. And I'm honestly very afraid of what will happen after the update with NPCs, although it may be fixed for single player. But it's clearly going to be a problem in multiplayer. There are several NPC mods in the workshop today and each one shows how much the game is "not ready" for them.

 

There are serious bugs in the game that shouldn't exist. There are a lot of illogical situations or moments. And if you consider the fact that in this game by standard any damage from zombies is lethal - it is unforgivable. As someone who has been playing for a very long time, and has been killing zombies for a very long time. I can mention that the game has a very strange system of hits, which sometimes does not work, or works but very strange. You seem to hear that the character bites the flesh, but your clothes are not even torn. Or you go through a window and a zombie bites through 4 layers of fabric. Or you get stunned, or your character stands still waiting to be bitten. In the game, spears are not usable, because of the fact that the character does a death animation and stands for a fraction of a second, and if it happens in a huge horde, it's death. Or in the game you can cook rotten food although it is unrealistic. Or a character can find anything in the garbage, and 24 hours later there will be more of that garbage.

 

I remember when the herbalist trait didn't work. A lot of things in the game need to be considered and improved. If the developers are aiming for other goals, it shows their incompetence to the existing features that require updating. Although recently redesigned collecting, but it breaks the balance even more because of its ability to "find something from nothing"

 

In the game, the developers clearly don't clean the game folder. Because there are media and lua code that was available from past updates, and doesn't work ingame. Which greatly complicates the modding of the game, that it a massive spaghetti code.

 

Lack of attention to deep game mechanics, fitness and strength leveling is unbearably hard and long in real time. Nimble impossible to levelup if you don't have occupation. Lack of boosts for Long Blade, Spears. Pointless farming, first aid, electrical, metalworking, tailoring. General pointlessness of trapping when there is fishing. General brokenness of Foraging. Comicality of shooting skills where a character can't kill with a gun at point-blank range. The senselessness of stealth.

 

I have no idea why add another skill for “long-term survival” if the existing skills here could significantly help and be desirable in long-term survival. Farming only gives you more information about plants, First Aid only improves the quality of treatment, Electrical only has two functions (Hotwire cars, and make lamps with batteries). I have not yet noted the exclusivity of the engineer, although he should not be exclusive. Metalworking requires too many materials in exchange for a little better protection and storage. Although the usual carpentry, which is given literally everywhere in the game, is enough. Tailoring which is in fact useless and does not work. Trapping requires daily attention when there are other effective ways to find food.

 

The game does not have any goals or additional tasks that the player could have in the long term. Everything is based on a sandbox platform, which is why many people come up with goals for themselves until they run out of ideas. Or they won’t go collect another mod pack for a unique challenge since the base game cannot provide this. Although there are challenges in the game, they are most often forgotten by the developers and they are no longer supported (like we have only M9 pistol and JS-2000 as firearms and Axe with Hammer + Baseball Bat as a melee, when we have tons of armory in latest updates)

 

There are a ton of moments in the game where players greatly simplify the player’s life with the help of QoL mods that can be easily added to the vanilla game. The developers in one of the blogs showed an improved mod menu, although today ModManager exists

 

And I only listed what is required in the vanilla game, including bug fixes. But the developers apparently think differently and they want to add a few more unfinished mechanics, which after a while they will stop paying attention to. Today, many mods basically satisfy the needs of players. When Indie Stone re-adds those same mechanics instead of making it easier to create mods. I can say without exaggeration that the entire game is driven by the community, and that the game is not becoming less popular due to the lack of attention from the developers to Build 41.

 

I understand that a small indie studio is working on the game, and the game is generally still in early access. But this does not change the fact that I listed above, and developers clearly need to reconsider their views on long-term support and thorough bug testing. I hope there will be comments that will provide their ideas on why Project Zomboid is far from ideal. (Not because the game is missing, or something new needs to be added). As for what we have now, build 42 doesn’t exist yet.

[puppers]

 

4 hours ago, Unamelable said:

hey are most often forgotten by the developers and they are no longer supported (like we have only M9 pistol and JS-2000 as firearms

I dont watch any streamers so I cant really make a comment on their "insight". 

Have you been reading the blogs because a lot of these "issues" mentioned have been discussed. Farming rework, crafting overhaul, animals, etc.  More sustainability I think will drastically improve overall endgame for most players. But then again it is still a sandbox game not sure how you combat that in general when the game offers so  much customization for such varying playstyles. 

For cars https://projectzomboid.com/blog/news/2023/11/one-door-openz/ it was mentioned there so hopefully it will be added in 42 when it comes out, if that helps at all. 

Regarding the "bugs" can you provide any data of these with links and maybe videos so it can help the people that do internal testing?  A lot of these issues mentioned look like mechanics that you can change in the sandbox settings; fence lunge , drag down i know help from being "stun locked". I still don't think clothing should protect you 100%.  What do you mean by herbalist trait didn't work? They have been reworking farming so im not sure what gave you the impression they arent going back and tidying up things or that they are forgotten.

The problem regarding mods that people suggest being implemented into the game is that, i feel, they just don't share the same vision with the game developers and or are just over powered in general. After running a few servers for some friends even simple mods like authentic z are op , car mods, etc. I also noticed that a lot of players who do live long time and say they get bored or the game is easy they are running 300+ mods with many traits and lots of different armor mods, so yeah of course the game isnt going to be challenging when you have "qol" things like that in your game.  So I think its better to just have workshop support so mod creators can build clientele to people who like that stuff wheras some don't otherwise youll have just sandbox settings after sandbox settings and if im being honest sitting in a game customizing the game for a hour is exhausting.  

Lastly just going to have to wait until 42 comes out so we can give input as EA players!! I think it has been a wild ride since i picked up the game back in 2014 and I always suggest to people to go play the old build before vehicles were dropped to see how far it has come, haha. 
 

[EnigmaGrey]

Our success came from being both ambitious and thorough, which naturally means being slow. I get that, to those who’ve played the game considerably more than the average, that the bloom eventually falls off the rose, but that doesn’t mean changing our approach now is the right choice or that the game is dying. We’ve heard it every single day for 12 years yet every build is ultimately more successful than the last and we have suffered from alternative approaches, be it smaller and/or faster builds or multiple simultaneous builds at once.

 

That does not mean the game doesn’t have flaws or shortcoming (assuredly, we’re well aware of them and are addressing them as fast as possible as part of build 42), but there comes a point where people need to move on and play other games. A good tell is when you start feeling contempt for something you once enjoyed. We all get there eventually, no matter the game or the development methodology behind it. Take a break, have some fun, and don’t worry about us.

[MadDan]

Personally, I gotta address this thing because it irks me always seeing stuff like it thrown out as fact:

 

"I can say without exaggeration that the entire game is driven by the community, and that the game is not becoming less popular due to the lack of attention from the developers to Build 41."

 

I've explained this myself numerous times and frankly it sickens me seeing it. It's looking at it through a narrow scope, obviously people are going to play with mods, or at least most of them, at some point when we support them as we do, and every game will have mods that outweigh ANY development team by absolutely any standard and that is straight fact. We intentionally support them to allow people to play in different experience that we aren't going to, or don't want to do. They don't require testing, they don't require support, they don't require care so sure, anyone can cobble them together and then forget about them and take their time with it with no consequences. Development teams can't do that, not that we would or ever want to. Pitching them against each other frankly is what makes me sick. We are damn fucking proud of our modders and that's the reason we continually support them with more accessibility in modding, but we're also damn proud of our own team taking their time, testing and focusing on getting it right as we have done despite belief of failure, or the next zombie survival game killing us, or the time making people "move on".

 

We get it all takes time, and I personally get how frustrating it is waiting and have been on the other side of this many many years ago so it's equally as frustrating being on the other side and knowing how much effort gets shoved aside when we take our time, as we always do, to deliver something that surpasses the last build, as we always do.

[EnigmaGrey]

And when it comes to mods, as Puppers, and Maddan touches on …

 

Well. Sometimes we’re just going to disagree. The dev team has its own goals and tolerance for the game’s systems and what you may consider bugs or poor design (take bites being 100% fatal — awful design … shame that’s a fundamental part of the game’s lore). We’re not always going to be on the same page with millions of players or tens of thousands of modders. It’s simply not possible make everyone happy and we’d be insane to try. 

 

Take both mods and the vanilla game as they are rather than try to pit them against each other or try to force one to be like the other. That is, sometimes all that we can do is respect each others’ decisions for why they do something and get on with it. Sometimes you can’t square the circle.

[BoogieMan]

You know what you do with early access games that will be in development for a long time? You pop in from time to time, play it, provide feedback, and go back to doing other things. I don't think the feedback you are providing is very constructive, because what can you do with it?. The only thing that would satisfy your issue is faster progress, which isn't always possible and isn't a realistic or helpful.

 

The game isn't done yet, I believe that makes 90% of your post more or less pointless. Sure, it's annoying when certain bugs are present for longer than you'd like, but it comes with the territory of an early access game, which you say you understand, but that is contradicted by the majority of your issues only being fixable by faster progress. More frequent updates isn't always a good thing either, especially for a game that by your own admission is heavily impacted by community mods. This is a great thing and good modding support is always a huge boon for the game and it's community, and it sucks when updates break a bunch of them. Sometimes it's nice for the modding community to have periods of stability for things to progress and grow. Modders get burnt out if their work is frequently nullified.

 

You're saying that the game is only what it is because of the modders. That's not true, it's a big help - it always is but this isn't one of those games where it's bare bones and lifeless experience without them. Look at Starfield. I'm in the group that was sorely disappointed by that game, it's sterile, lifeless, and boring. Bethesda didn't evolve. And I fully believe that game was negative affected by the runaway success of the Skyrim and Fallout modding communities. They knew a huge portion of the work of selling the game both at launch and for years to come would due to the efforts of modders. Starfield doesn't innovate and all those countless hours so many of us poured into Skyrim and Fallout until we got fatigued with it, causing that fatigue to pour over into Starfield. After two weeks I just stopped playing. I felt like I'd already been playing the game for a year. Bethesda is middling with their expansions and post launch support, so unless they really pour in the effort, that IS a game that will only live because of the modders.

 

Another example is Mount and Blade Bannerlord. That game is legit not finished and they slapped an unearned 1.0 and declared it out of early access awhile ago. They are still doing occasional patches but it feels like they've already moved on. It's a decent game, but it is, like Starfield, IMO not that great of an experience without mods. And their patches wreak havoc on those mods. I believe they did so because it's predecessor, Mount and Blade Warband is another game with a rich modding community that takes the experience to the next level. Without it, it's decent, but not great game.

 

I've been part of the Project Zomboid community for about a decade now, it's been a pleasure to see it grow and evolve over time. It's come so far it's basically a new game from what I first played. Is it a long time? Sure. But I've seen firsthand a lot of other game enter into early access, stagnate and get put to pasture long before they're done in that time.

 

I'd rather have a fun game that I can pop into from time to time, and take off to play other games, and come back again. All the while feeling much more confident that some day it will be finished, and it'll be an even greater game at that time. And I get to watch it grow up all the while.

 

Well worth the price of admission.

 

[Nilth]

Tbh you can be ambitious and thorough.. and not this slow. Just saying.

 

For example..but this is just my personal preference cause I'm not interested in it: skipping multiplayer and its huge effort would have probably (can't be sure) brought 42, 43..45 like one year ago. This is a fantastic game, really, but far from being complete (as in with key features missing that mods can't bring in)

 

My 2c

Edited December 18, 2023 by Nilth

[puppers]

2 hours ago, Nilth said:

Tbh you can be ambitious and thorough.. and not this slow. Just saying.

 

For example..but this is just my personal preference cause I'm not interested in it: skipping multiplayer and its huge effort would have probably (can't be sure) brought 42, 43..45 like one year ago. This is a fantastic game, really, but far from being complete (as in with key features missing that mods can't bring in)

 

My 2c

Doesn't multiplayer have its own team that works on it?  

[Unamelable]

A lot of people got their ass off when I mentioned modding, and it's pretty weird for developers to label themselves worse than modders. Because I'm sure if TIS hadn't updated the rendering and animation system. This would not give rise to a different number of mods that use these features. In the end, this is a platform for modders, and this already costs more than your own assembly of the same type but from a workshop. Plus, I forgot about the fact that they want to update the crafting system (I forgot about that, sorry). Which, again, provides a platform for modders. The same applies to the new fishing system. So I was wrong about the fact that the developers do not pay attention to skills, and the updated collecting that was released shows that the game is updating the base, which is more of a placeholder than a final version. 

 

And regarding the QoL of mods, I mean the very basics. Which are necessary for the game from the very beginning, and most likely an experienced player will remember them when he starts a new game. This is not adding crossbows, helicopters, or stats rebalance. I'm talking about those mods that could have been in the game initially, and have not yet been implemented by the developers. For example my list what i can't play without: Propane Torch Fix, Loot is First, Add More Map Symbols, Sit Until Rested, AutoLoot, AutoMechanics, AutoReload, AutoSewing, AutoSmoke, Backpack Borders, BetterWashing, BetterFPS, Big Moodles, Big Progress Bar, Change Sandbox Options ingame, Create Chipped Stones, Clean Dirt, Clean Ashes, Climb down the Rope, Common Sense, Container Tags, Containers Show Dublicates, Rags to Sheets, Disable Welcome Message, Deuteranopia Green Red Color Blindness Aiming Outline, Disassemble Container With Items, Known And Collected, Draw on the Map, Easy Corpse Move, All Doors Are Yours, Hotkeys & Hot Actions, Even More Everything Colors, Everything Has a Name, Item Merge B41, Fitness & Workout Overhaul, Fall Leaves, Fancy Handwork, Fix floor, Fix Inventory Tooltip lag, Rip All Clothes, Floor First, Fluffy Hair, Fuel Side Indicator, Visible Generator Range, Generator Time Remaining, Get Up Quick, GunStock, Has Been Read, I don't need a Lighter, Blind without glasses, If You're In The Car, You're In The Car, Inspect Weapon, Into The Water, Just Throw Them Out The Window, Item Condition Indicator, Item Stories, Jump Through Windows, KillCount, Let me Think, Light Switch Backlight, Make Paths, Map Symbol Size Slider, Medicine Moodles, Metal Convert, Open Metal Barrels, Mileage Expansion, Nimble Affects Turning Speed, NoctisFalco's Quality Of Life + Hotkeys, OSRS Eperience Bar, Obvious Collecting, On the Door, Out of Breath, Pass Out, Players on Map, Share Your Map Symbols, Point Blank, Proximity Inventory, Randomized Generators, Read Faster When Sitting, Read While Walking, Load All Magazines, Remove Debris, Can Repair Doors, Repair Roads, Repair Wall, Reorder Containers, Reorder The Hotbar, Reorder Duplicates by Condition, Repair Wall Cracks, Satchel with Bags, Sheet&Tarp Conversion, ShoesSpeed, Show Skill XP Gain, Skills and Traits Explained, Sleepy Moodle, Snow is Water, Stairs Alert, Stop, Drop 'n Roll, Susceptible Trait, Thread and Twine, Time Decreases Car Condition, Under Cover of Darkness, Loot Tables Fixed [41.78], Vanilla 3D Shoes, Vehicle Light Chime, Vehicle Recycling, Visible Holster, Water Dispenser, Weapon Condition Indicator, Weather Moodles, Wring Out Clothing, Zombies Hear Your Microphone, Zombies Trip Over Zombies, Show Wall Health, Open Ammo Boxes While Walking, add sounds for more interactions, Nested Containers.

I tried not to select mods that add things “like Shopping Carts” because this already goes beyond vanilla QoL tweaks and fixes. THAT shows how much TIS could add to improve whole vanila expirience, but if its exist - so devs don't gonna have bother about it in the future "if of course updates not gonna break most workshop items" (but i still don't know why they make ModManager again). Well, if you think that adding what I listed above is “overkill” and it takes away from the challenge of the game. I don’t know what to say, I wish you good luck playing without mods if you like it.

 

I really love the vanilla version of the game, and want sticking with this variant. I will always have time to make a heavy modded scene with aliens or duck apocalypse, but this will not be interesting for me because I am aiming for an authentic experience that the development team wants to provide, but when it can't provide it. I always gonna be happy to download it from workshop. Because its makes same actions less annoying and frustrating. Its mostly It is noticed when you play after a very long time. And you could spend less time and more efficiently. In the same ways. Or I could do things that aren't yet in vanilla, simply because they haven't been added yet. Or they just didn’t even think about it because the game is really huge, and really is a simulator.

 

I hope the modding issue is closed. (iconic say this for game where title says there is no hope for survival huh)

 

In general, I don’t understand the initial nitpicking about mods, because this is not a problem at all. This again concerns the vanilla game, without mods. And what is there right now (without blogs about B42). I focus on this. If the developers can't give a final date, then so be it. But the existing bugs will not disappear. And I have some doubt that because of such an inflated QoL themed mods in PZ. Many bug reports will be relevant? Simply because much of what is in the game was not added by the developers. And a modder can write a mod incorrectly, which can lead to unpredictable results. This turns out to be a wheel of samsara huh?

 

The problem is that that same gathering update breaks the balance with its “find everything from nothing” ability. And I think they have already added a field with loot updating hourly, because it’s not funny anymore. I'm aiming for stability and the absence of bugs. The game in its concept with, again, “Where any damage from zombies can be fatal,” I’m talking about the fact that if strange, rarely noticed bugs occur in the game, which I have felt MANY TIMES. I should really record the gameplay because it's really critical, I wish I had thought of that and im regret it with pass 1k hours. And I demand from such a game ideal stability in combat, because this is the key goal of the entire game, combat with zombies.

[EnigmaGrey]

To be clear, are the bugs you’re referring to things that those mods fix? Because if so, a lot of those seem counter to the vanilla game vs “fixing” it. That is, I think overall your take on what is fitting simply doesn’t match ours. 

 

I guess I just don’t want you to feel like you’re tilting at windmills here, so I apologize if I’m confusing two separate things (bugs vs qol mods).

[EnigmaGrey]

1 hour ago, puppers said:

Doesn't multiplayer have its own team that works on it?  

Yes. Members from General Arcade work on the mp side of the game. The rest of works on sp/the engine itself, baring areas that bleed into one another (like admin tools or ui).
 

We’re all going as fast as we can, but we’re not going to metaphorically flog the staff bloody and to the point of unconsciousness to go slightly faster … and still be called “too slow” anyway. 

 

[Blair Algol]

A lot of those things in those mods, and I mean a lot, amount to a difference of opinion between us, the developers, and the people who use the mods about how the game mechanics or interface should be. A lot of those things will not be added to vanilla.

In some of those cases more has been, and will be, done to improve the UI/UX aspects of the game, but also there's other stuff being worked, or that will be worked on that may be a higher priority.

In aspects to general "interacting with the world and items", in the fashion that many of those mods address, build b42 already has a lot of features, many of them that would be considered QOL, in that regard. It's not everything, and I'm sure not everything will be done to everyone's preferences, but it is something that is being addressed in an ongoing fashion.

However, I would say that our approach, in regards to "adding mods to vanilla" has been to approach the matter in a more holistic fashion, where we look at addressing the issues that mods may address versus just "adding the mod to vanilla". Some of those mod may even use vanilla assets for stuff that we are planning on adding in the future. We've also hired many modders over the past couple of years, myself included. We just take a more thoughtful and long term approach than plugging mod content into the game. This isn't a slight against modders, considering it's modders who are doing a lot of this work.

I would also say there is a lot of new content and mechanics in b42 already that hasn't been featured in the blog posts. We're saving a lot of the cool, fun, new stuff for people to discover when they play the beta or b42 itself. The blog posts aren't everything and a lot of stuff has been added to the game for build 42.

And also, with a lot of the new b42 content, I'm sure people will use many, many mods to change the mechanics, balance, or interface of those features to suit their preferences.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Blair Algol
blairification

[Unamelable]

3 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Yes. Members from General Arcade work on the mp side of the game. The rest of works on sp/the engine itself, baring areas that bleed into one another (like admin tools or ui).
 

We’re all going as fast as we can, but we’re not going to metaphorically flog the staff bloody and to the point of unconsciousness to go slightly faster … and still be called “too slow” anyway. 

 

 

[WinFrz]

On 12/18/2023 at 12:19 AM, Unamelable said:

The game is really full of bugs and general "unfinished" state

Um... because the game isn't finished. What did you expect? Were you expecting every single development build to be completely bug and issue free?

 

I think you want what's best for the game, and the devs most of all do too, it's their game.

 

But I feel like this discussion on "the game has bugs" is just becoming a cheap way to dogpile (which I feel is evidenced by your "If this post is deleted, it means that The Indie Stone cannot accept objective criticism from the community" line in the first paragraph).

Edited December 19, 2023 by WinFrz
Felt I needed to clarify some things

[Unamelable]

15 minutes ago, WinFrz said:

Um... because the game isn't finished. What did you expect? Were you expecting every single development build to be completely bug and issue free?

 

I think you want what's best for the game, and the devs most of all do too, it's their game.

 

But I feel like this discussion on "the game has bugs" is just becoming a cheap way to dogpile (which I feel is evidenced by your "If this post is deleted, it means that The Indie Stone cannot accept objective criticism from the community" line in the first paragraph).

But when games are released at the AAA level and the fact that they are riddled with problems with balance, optimization and bugs, no one whines, right? In any case, I justified what doesn’t suit me about the game, and don’t forget that I wasn’t just talking about bugs. I'm not saying that the whole game has gone downhill, GGWP I'll see you I don't know when. I noted some reasons "in my opinion" why the game is bad in its aspect, and why exactly it infuriates me. As I wrote in this post, I really love the game, and this is criticism. No hate (eventually i raised activity in the forum by this post)

[EnigmaGrey]

I mean, I’m afraid I have to agree with Win on this one. The thread is basically “if you don’t do it how I want, you’ll fail” after a considerable number of suggests and other criticisms, seemingly in the same vein over the past month. 

 

 I really would suggest just taking a break from the game. It’ll come on its own time and in its own way. It need not be forced.

[WinFrz]

13 minutes ago, Unamelable said:

But when games are released at the AAA level and the fact that they are riddled with problems with balance, optimization and bugs, no one whines, right? In any case, I justified what doesn’t suit me about the game, and don’t forget that I wasn’t just talking about bugs. I'm not saying that the whole game has gone downhill, GGWP I'll see you I don't know when. I noted some reasons "in my opinion" why the game is bad in its aspect, and why exactly it infuriates me. As I wrote in this post, I really love the game, and this is criticism. No hate (eventually i raised activity in the forum by this post)

The difference between this and AAA games is that AAA games aren't released with the label EARLY ACCESS. Look on the store page, it literally says in big letters:

Early Access Game

Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.

I don't remember seeing that on the store page of Cyberpunk.

 

It has never been advertised as complete, it's always openly been stated to be in development.

Edited December 19, 2023 by WinFrz

[Nilth]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:31 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

Yes. Members from General Arcade work on the mp side of the game. The rest of works on sp/the engine itself, baring areas that bleed into one another (like admin tools or ui).
 

We’re all going as fast as we can, but we’re not going to metaphorically flog the staff bloody and to the point of unconsciousness to go slightly faster … and still be called “too slow” anyway. 

 

You mean that the only solution to have a faster development (with no compromises on quality) would have been\is "to metaphorically flog the staff bloody and to the point of unconsciousness"?

It's a genuine question, I'm not ironic: you think there's/could have been no other solution?

Edited December 20, 2023 by Nilth

[EnigmaGrey]

1 hour ago, Nilth said:

You mean that the only solution to have a faster development (with no compromises on quality) would have been\is "to metaphorically flog the staff bloody and to the point of unconsciousness"?

It's a genuine question, I'm not ironic: you think there's/could have been no other solution?

Pretty much? Anything else, based on hindsight, inevitably has trade-offs or situations that made it impossible to happen earlier in development. The staff available now doesn't become available earlier; the money made now doesn't somehow get made earlier; the lessons learned in the past don't relearn themselves today. That's always the dilemma with "what ifs."

 

All TIS really could have done differently comes down to communication (and maybe embracing marketing instead of word of mouth):  maybe being more humble early on would have prevented TIS from setting itself up to "fail" at its own self-imposed goals. Maybe they should have taken the publishing deal in 2014 and surrendered control / moved on with the game in a "good enough" state instead of what they originally wanted to do. That sort of thing: hide, conceal, fake it -- give the impression of speed or achieving your goals without really doing it.

 

It's not as though we don't see this time and time again in the game industry: companies hide information from the user, aside from what's useful for marketing purposes, and pretend things are going just swell right up to release. And sure, the result is a disappointing game that doesn't meet its original goals, but what does it matter? The money is made back, people don't care enough en masse to seemingly stop buying the games that do it. I can only guess offers a sense of closure you don't get with a game that tells you upfront "It'll take as long as it takes." One you don't feel like you're waiting for it, the other you do; one is spent; the other has potential. So on and so forth. 

 

Edit: I guess if you wanted a list of practical stuff, it'd be something like

 

• TIS could have stuck with XNA instead of acting on Microsoft's decision to nix it
• TIS could have finished PAWS instead of starting a new game (PZ)
• TIS could have picked a prebuilt engine (but would have inevitably run into the limits of something like Unity for this style of game, especially in 2011)
• TIS could have foregone supporting multiple platforms (something Java promised to be able to handle gracefully, but didn't really for games) and a web-based version of the game (the pre-release game was an applet)
• TIS could have stuck with C# -- the thing they knew -- instead of using Java
• TIS could have built the game engine's architecture with an Entity Component System (the new hotness in 2020) instead of inheritance (good ol' OOP)
• TIS could have foregone OpenGL and OpenAL, which had some pretty severe compatibility issues later in life
• TIS could have opted not to install an auto-updater for the game, costing them significant money when it was abused by pirates
• TIS could have abused "free file hosting" opportunities to try and save money when updating the game outside of Desura
• TIS could have used a different payment provider instead of Google Wallet and PayPal to avoid having issues when those services deemed selling incomplete games problematic (naturally that policy didn't stick around for very long ) 
• TIS could have had a better backup solution when they moved in 2011 (remember, at this point, they were basically bedroom coders, living in an apartment, not offices or Big Corp)
• TIS could have avoided any GNU code to avoid copy-left trolls
• TIS could have dropped most of their requirements for a Steam release and entered early access ~10 months earlier (also takes care of file hosting)

 

That sort of thing ate up a lot of time and ate into what little money they had early on, imo. It gets less possible to "save time" as things progressed and the game saw more success.

 

• TIS could have been more direct that their goals were based on getting a publisher (while they were being actively courted by one)
• TIS could have gone corporate and taken (a) the publisher's deal
• TIS could have used GIT differently to avoid issues with long commit times and binary files (or never used GIT at all, opting for SVN, Plastic SCM, and other alternatives)

 

And then it gets just weird:

 

• TIS could have avoided supporting mods (Lua, especially built on top of Java, is -not great- in terms of performance and does fragment the game development somewhat)
• TIS could have been satisfied with the release of MP in 2014 (or 2016 -- but 2016 was basically Project Zomboid: Together w/ the implementation of Steam co-op)  and called it done; anything not done would just be done post-launch or as DLC to keep the company afloat (or not)
• TIS could have just bluntly taken mod content instead of hiring modders as devs, as some advocate and even insist on
• TIS could have pivoted to making expansions or sequels out of the subsequent big updates that followed this point (in-game coop hosting; cars; weather; the animations update; the MP re-release; and now animals)

 

I don't think there's much else they could have done that wouldn't require cosmic forces conspiring to help them earlier, such as certain staff members being available much earlier in production than they were, so I don't think there's much point going down that particular rabbit hole.

 

 

[Unamelable]

20 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Pretty much? Anything else, based on hindsight, inevitably has trade-offs or situations that made it impossible to happen earlier in development. The staff available now doesn't become available earlier; the money made now doesn't somehow get made earlier; the lessons learned in the past don't relearn themselves today. That's always the dilemma with "what ifs."

 

All TIS really could have done differently comes down to communication (and maybe embracing marketing instead of word of mouth):  maybe being more humble early on would have prevented TIS from setting itself up to "fail" at its own self-imposed goals. Maybe they should have taken the publishing deal in 2014 and surrendered control / moved on with the game in a "good enough" state instead of what they originally wanted to do. That sort of thing: hide, conceal, fake it -- give the impression of speed or achieving your goals without really doing it.

 

It's not as though we don't see this time and time again in the game industry: companies hide information from the user, aside from what's useful for marketing purposes, and pretend things are going just swell right up to release. And sure, the result is a disappointing game that doesn't meet its original goals, but what does it matter? The money is made back, people don't care enough en masse to seemingly stop buying the games that do it. I can only guess offers a sense of closure you don't get with a game that tells you upfront "It'll take as long as it takes." One you don't feel like you're waiting for it, the other you do; one is spent; the other has potential. So on and so forth. 

 

Edit: I guess if you wanted a list of practical stuff, it'd be something like

 

• TIS could have stuck with XNA instead of acting on Microsoft's decision to nix it
• TIS could have finished PAWS instead of starting a new game (PZ)
• TIS could have picked a prebuilt engine (but would have inevitably run into the limits of something like Unity for this style of game, especially in 2011)
• TIS could have foregone supporting multiple platforms (something Java promised to be able to handle gracefully, but didn't really for games) and a web-based version of the game (the pre-release game was an applet)
• TIS could have stuck with C# -- the thing they knew -- instead of using Java
• TIS could have built the game engine's architecture with an Entity Component System (the new hotness in 2020) instead of inheritance (good ol' OOP)
• TIS could have foregone OpenGL and OpenAL, which had some pretty severe compatibility issues later in life
• TIS could have opted not to install an auto-updater for the game, costing them significant money when it was abused by pirates
• TIS could have abused "free file hosting" opportunities to try and save money when updating the game outside of Desura
• TIS could have used a different payment provider instead of Google Wallet and PayPal to avoid having issues when those services deemed selling incomplete games problematic (naturally that policy didn't stick around for very long ) 
• TIS could have had a better backup solution when they moved in 2011 (remember, at this point, they were basically bedroom coders, living in an apartment, not offices or Big Corp)
• TIS could have avoided any GNU code to avoid copy-left trolls
• TIS could have dropped most of their requirements for a Steam release and entered early access ~10 months earlier (also takes care of file hosting)

 

That sort of thing ate up a lot of time and ate into what little money they had early on, imo. It gets less possible to "save time" as things progressed and the game saw more success.

 

• TIS could have been more direct that their goals were based on getting a publisher (while they were being actively courted by one)
• TIS could have gone corporate and taken (a) the publisher's deal
• TIS could have used GIT differently to avoid issues with long commit times and binary files (or never used GIT at all, opting for SVN, Plastic SCM, and other alternatives)

 

And then it gets just weird:

 

• TIS could have avoided supporting mods (Lua, especially built on top of Java, is -not great- in terms of performance and does fragment the game development somewhat)
• TIS could have been satisfied with the release of MP in 2014 (or 2016 -- but 2016 was basically Project Zomboid: Together w/ the implementation of Steam co-op)  and called it done; anything not done would just be done post-launch or as DLC to keep the company afloat (or not)
• TIS could have just bluntly taken mod content instead of hiring modders as devs, as some advocate and even insist on
• TIS could have pivoted to making expansions or sequels out of the subsequent big updates that followed this point (in-game coop hosting; cars; weather; the animations update; the MP re-release; and now animals)

 

I don't think there's much else they could have done that wouldn't require cosmic forces conspiring to help them earlier, such as certain staff members being available much earlier in production than they were, so I don't think there's much point going down that particular rabbit hole.

 

 

Well THAT a piece of useful information here

[Unamelable]

I have to mention that if my opinion is not taken into account. There are a lot of other videos on the Internet that criticize Project Zomboid. I will attach them after a while to confirm that this is a significant problem that really requires consideration rather than discussion.

 

It's Time To Talk About Project Zomboid... ft. ThatGuyPredz

Harsh reality about Project Zomboid Development ft. TheZedSurvivor

The One Big Problem With Project Zomboid... ft. MrAtomicDuck

How to Stop Getting Bored in Project Zomboid ft. Spoodle

Project Zomboid Is A Flawed Game ft. Riley Home

Project Zomboid's Fundamental Problem ft. CraazyFYI

The Broken Project Zomboid Injury System ft. PZB

Depression in Project Zomboid ft. PZB

 

A long-winded critique about Project Zomboid and the progress of its development

End comments at Thursdoid Blog in Steam

Random steam review

 

I must say that this thing smells like kerosene. If I still understand that I need to take a break from the game, “I really played non-stop because I really liked the game, then after a while delving into the deep mechanics and the “deep feeling of the game.” Then these “spools” appear and spoil my gaming experience.

There will be people who will be very dissatisfied. Now this is already visible in the same Steam discussions, then it may go to Reddit. And then there will be videos on YouTube that allegedly scam TIS with the B42 build. I saw a review about EULA (yes there was a mistake but its major stuff that in this review put lots of negativity). So it’s good that there is no serious hate towards the developers yet.

 

But there are many players who came for the hype - including me. They will begin to put pressure on TIS because they have studied all the content in the game, and based on their experience they will provide their grievances. Not only about the lack of updates. I can only wish the developers good luck with the overtaking hate because the player base is now much larger.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Unamelable

[EnigmaGrey]

To get to the point, PZ is a game that most people get around 20 hours out of. There’s maybe 50-60 hours of actual content ( enough to get you through a winter ) otherwise. It took 12 years to get there, mind — to get to the point where only a decade ago, this would have been considered a crazy amount of content for 3x-6x the price.

If you end up spending hundreds  or thousands of hours playing it or (as people like myself have done) make a job out of it, you’re going to have quite a different view of it, naturally. No game can withstand that level of scrutiny,  provide the content necessary to fulfill the desire for novelty, or act as a vehicle to create content for when it’s effectively being played over and over again hundreds of times. And that, at least to me personally, is the main problem in many of those videos. (Ignoring that concerns about b42 often are imagined problems that people then argue for or against because they don’t and can’t have the full picture when it’s not out.)

 

I get that waiting sucks, that we all naturally become bored and jaded with the game, and that the long period of time between updates creates a kind of void where people invent and argue against their own ideas of future content, but it’s never been something we could address. I don’t think anyone can. 
 

Prophetizing the game’s death due to an imaginary wave of hate, if only we don’t change the approach that made us successful for the past 12 years, now,  will not help anyone or change anything.

 

Please don’t take the game so personally. It’s just one of thousands of great games to play. It’s not your job to “fix” it; it’s not worth investing yourself into; you don’t need to worry about it or try to change its nature. It’s just a game.

 

 Now I’m going to go visit the family for the weekend and spend my holiday away from

 this “whole” PZ thing. I hope you can do the same.

 

Have a Merry Christmas.

[Unamelable]

1 minute ago, EnigmaGrey said:

To get to the point, PZ is a game that most people get around 20 hours out of. There’s maybe 50-60 hours of actual content ( enough to get you through a winter ) otherwise. It took 12 years to get there, mind.

If you end up so ending hundreds  or thousands of hours out of it or (as people like myself have done) made a job out of it, you’re going to have quite a different view of it by the end. No game can withstand that level of scrutiny,  provide the content necessary fill the desire for novelty, or act as a vehicle to create content for when it’s effectively being played over and over again hundreds of times. And that, at least to me personally, is the main problem in many of those videos.

 

I get that waiting sucks, that we all naturally become bored and jaded with the game, and that the long period of time between updates creates a kind of void where people invent and argue against their own ideas of future content, but it’s never been something we could address. I don’t think anyone can. 
 

Prophetizing the game’s death due to an imaginary wave of hate, if only we don’t do the thing that made us successful for the past 12 years will not help anyone or change anything.

 

Please don’t take the game so personally.

Im taking a Left 4 Dead 2. Its have replayability. So every time you play - you have unique experience. And because its a multiplayer - unique team work.

In PZ you basicly locked in with Singleplayer with pretty much pitty Sadistic AI. And pretty much broken MP in most points.

 

I guess if PZ had some kind of this value, maybe it could save more hours because y'know. Gambling is fun (ingame sense). Even if we took into account 12 years of active development. You have a real roadmap? Of course i get it we have it right now, but problem is make those things in time. And have a straight vision of the game. I didn't knew that TIS team gonna focus on "long survival" with smithing and crafting. Before that post everyone just assumed that PZ is a silly goober zombie looter game with expanded functional (what have limited use in most cases). And now you're making a absolute new route for game. If you could send me early on posts from 2018-2016 about long-term survival. Im gonna trust about the fact that team have straight-forward goal about Project Zomboid. From now its feels vivid, and unsure about.

[EnigmaGrey]

I mean I got tired of left for dead after around 20 hours so I’m not really sure I buy that (it’s very predictable, just as any non truly random game is), nor am I interested in making an addictive gambling game. (The idea that people might be addicted to PZ is already bad enough …)
 

We’re really not “making an absolute new route” either. This is fleshing out the existing systems for the most part. That’s exactly what I mean about people letting their imaginations run away …

 

Here. 2011 good enough? https://projectzomboid.com/blog/tldr-just-give-me-the-jist/

 

Why would we not make the most all-encompassing game we can, exactly? Do you just expect us to stagnate and be content with whatever was thought possible in the early years? Just ignore our contemporaries and not compete with them? Live in fear of the nebulous and ill defined “feature creep” in a genre that’s outright expects the widest possible set of features (survival sandbox)?
 

Do you not actually want us to persist and make the best game possible, even when there’s clearly millions of people who want that by the very fact we survived this long?

 

Why does speed (and scope) matter more than making a good game or not?

[Unamelable]

11 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

I mean I got tired of left for dead after around 20 hours so I’m not really sure I buy that, nor am I interested in making an addictive gambling game. 
 

We’re really not “making an absolute new route” either. This is fleshing out the existing systems for the most part. That’s exactly what I mean about people letting their imaginations run away …

 

Here. 2011 good enough? https://projectzomboid.com/blog/tldr-just-give-me-the-jist/

Of course, it is not supported by what quality it will be. But I can only hope that the ideas that will be added as a "skeleton". They will improve up to build 48. And when there is a 48 build, live in reality lol. I'm betting that it will be around... 2028-30 if the work speed is at the routine level. It’s not clear what “loneliness” means if we have NPCs (if by standard there are very few of them). Drug Addiction? Suicide? Insanity? So far, none of this has been described in blogs, but apparently you work on the principle of “do the hardest, then the easy.” True, again an update with Gathering and Fishing... According to the wayback machine, this post really has not changed since 2013 and it’s a stretch to say that the work will be completed unless, of course, no devilry happens during this time.