Ohbal
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Posts posted by Ohbal
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AFAIK bich sap is really low in calories... maybe its just the one you can buy and when you harvest it is different.
Marple sirup is not a bad choice, 250 cal/100g. Now we only need to find out if there are maples in the game area
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I believe honey was mentioned earlier as a realistic possible foraged item, and you could lock it at one of the empty higher tiers (5, 9, and 10 currently offer nothing).
A few weeks back I was looking into high caloric foods that could be foraged, and Honey was my best bet. Its already in game, so one less problems. What I like the most of this is that it has many possibilities:
1. You should collect the honey from the hives.
2. The hives could be made physical (not something you get automatically while /foraging), and make them to appear random on the map for each game.
3. Collecting honey should have its risks: you could get in troubles with the bees if not done properly (new equipment? using cigarretes?)
Actually managing stuff is one of my favourite things that fits in the game, along with managing psychical comfort, health, and inventoryYou don't play "manage my diet" simulator in a zombie apocalypse game.
100% agree. Any survival game has to rely heavily on management, from all angles: health management, inventory, time, stamina, mood, etc. Its the beauty behind the scenario.
Oh, and great update, by the way, thanks RJ!
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For new version you won't have to always right click, once you start fishing you'll stop by mobing or doing something else, after one time fishing is finished, another one start (looking for new lure or rod)
I also reduced the boredom thing when fishing, should be less boring
Also nowbig fish will have better nutrition while small bit less, that should make good fishing man able to survive in the forest, gonna address mushrooms tomorrow and prob do a release
Yo! Another aproach to this could be that the player gets a happiness boost when actually manages to fish something. Like in real life! You may spend hours looking at the pole in the sea (or the river), you'll get bored, but then, suddenly, the thing actually start to move and you manage to catch the poor fish and... happiness boost
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Awesome update! Will see if I can squeeze some time tomorrow to check it out
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"Maybe reduce a tad the weight gain/loss"
Yeah it's way to fast getting fat , but hell so hard and so long to lose weight !
second month, veggies diet (lettuce, carots and potatoes harvested from farming), i lost 15 kgs !
averageCalories=-2334.0312
caloriesMax=3999.9731
caloriesMin=-3500.0
totalFedPercentage=5
totalStarvingPercentage=60
totalNormalHungerPercentage=34
totalExoPercentage=29
totalSleepPercentage=1
totalNormalPercentage=81
survivalTime=1209.56730872544
Yup, I lost 20kg doing the vegan diet as well
As it is now, the only way to not starve to death being a farmer is to eat around 20 potatoes a day
Hunting is going to be really necessary to be self-sustainable. However, with a minimun looting the diet gets balanced out, let it be chips, peanut butter, canned food like oats, honey, alcohol.... there are many items that serve as a caloric boost. Once they run out... if you are still alive (many, many years in game, you are back to the sustainability point... but let's cross that bridge when we get there...)
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here is mine. I think around 5 weeks of in game time.
averageCalories=-2126.5447
caloriesMax=2381.1423caloriesMin=-3500.0totalFedPercentage=14totalStarvingPercentage=12totalNormalHungerPercentage=75totalExoPercentage=10totalSleepPercentage=1totalNormalPercentage=93survivalTime=732.4766410352167First day:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=617883493
After 5 weeks:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=617883155
So, I made a fitness instructor, obese (he had to quit the job at the gym to join a videogame QA team) with all kind of phobias but also a ton of good stuff.
I played on Bedford, and stablish myself on top of a small food market and close to many places where food was aboundant. Stockpiled all the canned food I could find (enough for three months, easy).
The first three weeks or so I focused on eating the fresh and healthy stuff I found in the fridges. Even though I had caloric deficit all the time the dude felt well fed. This felt strange in game (IRL the fiber would do its magic) but ok for my getting fit objective. This nutrition plan plus the occasional zombie fight and gardening, made me lost more than 20kg in 4 weeks (however the obese trait was still there as an old tattoo
). At 73kg decided to quit the diet and started picking some canned stuff. I'm stable in weight and nutritiend values now*, but no way of living just from farming, you need to take a few high caloric intakes from time to time (every two-three days). like peanut butter, chips or oats. Which is good! This way you can't grow roots and just farm: looting and managing this caloric treasures will be key.
Things I'd like to see:
- Ability to add butter to stirfries, to boost the calories in the cooked vegetables
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A small boost in the potato calories- losing the overweight trait (or gaining it) depending on the nutrition values of the character
On a buggy note, I think there is no caloric penalty for carrying too much weight. Or i didn't notice it.
*Is there anyway of knowing what the normal values of Lipids, carbs and prots are? I've tried to maintain the percentages in the right levels but what is too much or too low in terms of, for example, proteins? 100? 1000?
Edit: after seeing the values in the other thread, the potatoes are OK
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Gonna take a look for the soup/evolved recipes but it should work I fixed some bugs on it on the last update...
Because yeah, right now you're at 19kg, so you should be dead tbh
Yup, below 30 in males and 25 females should be the doorstep to dying... and those guys could barely move so they would be death way earlier in PZ
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198046681680/screenshot/495762843157311057
I tried it out for about a month in game. Trying to play an outdoor survival character isn't really doable (or enjoyable) against the current hunger clock. On my best days, I could hit -3000 calories.
I haven't tried to do it without hearty appetite, I'll try it again without that trait, but surely it shouldn't be that devastating?
Edit: Relevant skills - Foraging: 5, Fishing: 2, Cooking: 2 before I gave up fighting the calorie clock.
Edit Edit: Gonna try to fight the calorie clock again, I'm gonna see if Light Eater makes being an outdoor survivalist possible.
My guess is that a survival character will really depend on farming potatos, which will be the main calorie source. And a survivalist with hearty apetite sounds like nightmare mode to me
The other source for calories would be fruits, but we don't have them yet.
On this topic, does someone knows the nutrition value of the potatos, carrots, tomatoes, cabbages.... etc, the value of the vegetables we can grow in game? I will get into testing later, but is going to take some time to see the first crops.
For the proteins, maybe an other way to find meat ? like something with foraging, don't forget there is no river at Muldraugh, so only one way to get meat is trapping :/
At some point I guess there will be bigger animals than rats and birds to catch with the hunting skill. Those should serve as a protein source... and I keep telling you guys, a diet rich in insects is the future
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I also suggest adding fiber.
The sensation of Fullness (hunger relief) is based mostly on fiber and protein.
I would do: Protein * 5 + Fiber * 9 + Lipid + Carbs / x = hunger relief.
Fiber is really 10 times since it also is in the Total Carbs number.
X would have to be played with. I will make a suggestion once I find the different fullness range in the code.
The above relative ratio is just a starting point.
Ohbal I would like your input on that.
Well, I agree from a nutritional perspective but I already feel the system in game may feel too complex, so I'd tend to look for ways to simplify it rather than making it even deeper.
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It may be a bold suggestion and at this point I'm sure you guys have a lot on your heads but... don't you think that with this nutrition and phisical activity tracking system we could maybe reduce the amount of traits one can chose from when creating a character, and build some of the character traits based on the in game activity? I'm thinking in maybe 50/50 in terms of "natural born" skills and "adapted skills".
The character creation still overwhelms me, and I always flavoured a real "evolution" of our avatars in the games. I like for example the GTA way of doing this, with hidden stats, so the first hours of driving it really feels you are newbie, and after a dozen you feel like a pro.
Just a wild though... going back to testing now.
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Maybe Obhal will have an answer, but a simple salad of some chicken, salmon and some cheese will not be high calories (my slice of cheese is only 113 calories), remember it's a salad and you have no sauce or whatsoever inside it!
A salad like the one you mention IRL would be around 280-300 calories
Assuming 100g lettuce, 50g salmon. 50g chicken, 30g cheese.
Thing is, I'm super lost when it comes to the weight system in PZ, so I can't tell if these percentages would be accurate. The maths by vanorfeadiel with the in game weights show a monstruous salad with 210 grams of cheddar. I don't think the game recipee is trying to emulate that!
I think the exercise of setting the correct ration weights is must have here if the objective is to aim for some short of realism. The watermelon example is a great one. I'd like to see someone eating a full watermelon in 20 minutes
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This one is good:
http://www.nutritionvalue.org/
There is nothing the internet can't give you
One 300-gram rat contains 648 Calories, 63 grams of protein, and 33 grams of fat.https://neurostew.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/nutritional-content-of-rat/
And here you have a simple table of the insect's nutritional value
http://forestandrange.org/modules/behavior/images/insectnutrition.gif
Oh, and I'll switch my game to English, as I just realized that what gets lost in translation could lead to missinformation. Ignore the dried meat info and use the first link to double check stuff
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please review worms and how overpowered and game breaking they are.
heh, laugh it up, but we may end up basing most of our protein ingestion in insects!
Check this out:
http://forestandrange.org/modules/behavior/images/insectnutrition.gif
Anyway and back to Zomboid... I don't think the problem is the worms themselves, but the lack of real de-buffs to your morale if you are basing your whole diet in them. I have the feeling that may change with this update, so probably gonna get solved.
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Dead rats don't have any stats
Don't forget one of the main protein sources we'll be basing our diet on when not close to a river
Edit: RJ, would you like us to list here the foods with stats that could be off?
Driet meat, for example, has
Carbs 6
Prots 1
Lip 1
IRL, its (100g)
Carbs 0
Prots 39
Lips 9
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I was guessing the current hearty appetite and light eater could change to fast or slow metabolism and just increase or decrease the caloric burn without getting into the complexity of fat/muscle loss.
I like the approach, nice and easy
This would be another of those traits I'd like to see from a dinamical approach. In the same way as someone "strong" could get downgraded to weak, or an obese into a skinny dude... In PZ world, the metabilism could be affected by the cuantity and intensity of the physical activity, the amount of times (and amount of food per meal) we eat every day, etc.
This could also get an effect on the winter. As you mention before, we are practically one step out of the caves in terms of evolution (by the way I'm a fan of this theory and I use that argument a lot
) and our body has mechanism to adapt to lack of food. An extended sedentary period, combined with a reduction in food consumption will make your metabolism slower. This would has the trade off of losing strenght and resistance, of course -
The protein, lipid and carbs level is a much more complicated topic for burn rate (intake is easy, outtake is difficult).
Carbs should be the key factor for energy level and be burnt first. While you are burning carbs you should not feel too tired.
Once you start burning lipid and protein then your Fitness level should determine how quickly you get tired and how quickly you recover.
Just for the sake of discussion: from a purely scientific approach, fat is the most efficient nutrient to provide energy (1 gram of Fat has 9 calories, vs the average 4 found in carbs or proteins). Also, eating "good" fat will help you burn more fat (how crazy is that?! xD).
Anyway, I will not be getting into "healthy" habits as that would drag us the hell out of the topic.
PS: I knew this thread would drag me. Hope my boss doesn't catch me
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I would suggest the following basic burn rate:
5 calory + 0.5 calory per point of strenght + 0.2 calory per missing point of fitness from max.
If you want to change fitness to cardio and have a fat/slim scale added then use that scale instead of fitness, since your cardio capacity is not the same has your fat level although the two often follow opposite direction they are not absolutely the same.
So a 5, 5 character would burn 1224 per days if they did nothing.
A top strenght, obese character
You could then add 600 calories once per day if the character eats that day.
This would give you a normal character burning 1824 calories if they did nothing but ate that day.
This character would burn 500 calories running in an hour. (this is pretty good if running is 5mph and you consider about 150lbs)
A feeble, slim character would burn 1320 calories a day if they did nothing but ate that day.
This character would burn 295 calories running in an hour. (this is pretty good if running is and you consider about 80lbs)
A strong, obese character would burn 2328 calories a day if they did nothing but ate that day.
This character would burn 705 calories running in an hour. (this one is actually a bit low).
The thing with calorie consumption is that varies a lot from person to person. Each one of us has a different metabolism. The weather affects as well, both resting and active calorie consumption (maintaining the body tempterature is the most -passive- calorie consumption function we have) and our body also gets more efficient the more we do something. So for a newbie, an hour of running may get to consume up to 1k calorie, while the same guy after getting used to run marathons will be closer to the 400. On the other hand, males need more calories than females. Do we want to reflect that in game? If we do so, we open the door to jump into strenght or carry capacity base stats based on genre... which I don't think we need (although is a very interesting design idea).
I think your approach of "passive calorie consumption" (what we consume for the shake of being alive, even if we don't move a muscle) + level of in game fitness is a great starting point. This equation would also help defining the amount of food someone uses (which could lead to getting rid of the hearty appetite and light eater traits, what make little sense with this system in place).
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(Sorry for the Off topic here)
Hey man, obviously I'm not going to try to give you any advice on what you should do, as I don't know you and as you very well said: everyone is different, and reacts differently to certain foods.
However, there is one advice that I give to everybody that comes asking me for tips on how to get healthy: do not eat canned food. Try to eat as much "fresh" food as possible. Nothing (or barely nothing) that comes in a bag is healthy: the industry uses all kinds of shit to make things last for longer and cheat your brain to think is good (aka: sugar).
This could be applied to PZ as well
And last word: OMG OHBAL IM PMING YOU I NEED MORE INFOS
It would be an honor. I f'ing love this game, so let me know if there is anything I can do to help!
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This is going to be a really interesting thread
I have a nutritionnist degree, and although its not what I do for a living, is a topic that really drives me crazy, specially with all the intentional missinformation flying around to make people eat worst every passing day.
Nutrition itself is a pain in the ass IRL. You really need to pay attention to what nutritients are you putting in your body... In all meals. I struggle with it enough in my life so I'm curious about what level of "realism" will PZ pack in this regard. I'd go for a relatively simple system, based specially on food freshness and variety. As long as you are eating "a bit of everything" you should be fine. Bonus and malus should come from a diet based only on canned foods, or lack of different foods.
In game, besides what you can find in the fridges (which eventually rottens, so let's discard those) we have:
- Vegetables (low on carbs, really low on protein and lipids, high in nutritients and fiber)
- Fish (high in proteins and lipids)
- Meat (high in proteins and lipids)
- Insects (high in protein)
- Fruits (high in nutritients and carbs)
Basically (IRL) you must consume lipids, you must consume proteins, and you have to control the amount of carbs (specially sugar based) you consume. The carbs are not mandatory, proteins and lipids are (the former builds your muscles and the latter is the basic energy source and its crucial for your internal organs). Carbs help providing energy... but they are not as mandatory as the industry has been telling the world they are. Anyway this topic would get too complex if we jump into these details so let's leave it thereIn my opinion the fact that the player will have to worry about getting sources of protein is awesome. It will give the hunting and fishing skills the importance they should have in a post apocaliptic scenario. Farming is a great source of food and nutritients, but someone living of vegetables only for a long time will for sure present some muscle deficiencies, unless they get access to soy, peanuts and other vegetables with high protein values (which are really not that many, and more importantly, they are not in the game -yet-). Someone eating only canned food would surely present deficits in essential nutrients, leading to all kind of healthy issues, from depression to loss of strenght
How could this work on PZ? I picture a system with a progress bar that goes from Low to High in terms of good eating. Each direction gives you bonus or malus.
A player would start in the middle of the bar (this could be also based on your traits: if you are a chef, or a nutritionist, or a fitness instructor it would be closer to the "high", and if you are obese, to the "low" area, for example).
The player "level" of nutrition should move slowly, both ways. Meaning that if you have been eating poorly for a month, if you start eating healthy it would take you a similar amount of time to get back to "normal", and double to get to "high", and viceversa.
Eating should affect your basic traits as well: you won't retain your "strenght" values if you don't eat enough proteins. Or you could get rid of your "obese" trait if you have been eating healthy for months.
And this are my two cents for now. Gotta get back to work!
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What about a "cleared" or "empty" sign for places you already looted?
- CaptKaspar, Jeffrey Diggs and Blake81
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Wow, I was just about to run a search for "fruit trees" in the suggestion forums in order to create a topic if there was none... and here are you guys already talking about it. Awesome
After today's Mondoid's nutrition announcement, fruits are going to be a really valuable commodity, and currently only available during the first weeks of the game. Would be cool to find fruits trees in your hiking trips, I'd mark the spot in my mind as if it was a treasure!
Growing them would also be cool: a long term goal beyond surviving. In MP, people would tell the tale of the people that planted the trees growing inside the base...
I think a year milestone would be awesome. -
Once you have the tools and equipment, building a base here is fantastic! Endless water, fishing within the base, and a good central looting location between the mall and WP, and it is extremely defensible!
http://pzmap.crash-override.net/#0.6902227012574244,0.17382113686248626,79.49684720339077
Damn, that's brilliant! I would have never though about it. Great location, endless possibilities.
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I think most of us would agree that the amount of jars is super low, and has been since the implementation. I also think most of us would agree that the amount of food currently in the world, plus what you can get from foraging, farming, or fishing is also super high. So possibly two sides of the same problem: food balance (which is also affected by how "nutrition" is handled, as one can survive of chips for a year without a heart attack
)I understand that the "balancing" phase will come later in the dev cycle. I understand the logic behind this, but I can't see why some tweaks couldn't be made to start fine tuning. All this months have been "lost" in this regard, when we could by now have some basic data on whether the numbers are too high, or too low to make a difference. I don't have the slightest idea on the amount of work that would need to be done on the code for this, but I'd dare to say this is a fairly easy change.
My 2c!
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I personally have started to love this place:
http://pzmap.crash-override.net/#0.3926865462250877,0.22732610224916275,164.8446623609511
It comes already walled, with the excection of the small jumpable fence. You can use the construction pilars to build a safe and realistic "tree-house" without fearing it will collapse
. Lots of boxes and rooms to organize the loot. There was also a gap between chainlink fence and wooden fence in the top corner but maybe it was fixed, idk.
My favourite place:
http://pzmap.crash-override.net/#0.4473745307163277,0.24854631448415876,164.8446623609511
- once you kill all the railyard zombies you are pretty much safe as chainlink fence will keep 99% of zombies away and harmless behind the fence
That would explain why I keep seeing zombies in the yard from time to time... I thought it might be a spawning bug. I'll reinforce the fence in the spot you mention and see what happens
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I personally have started to love this place:
http://pzmap.crash-override.net/#0.3926865462250877,0.22732610224916275,164.8446623609511
It comes already walled, with the excection of the small jumpable fence. You can use the construction pilars to build a safe and realistic "tree-house" without fearing it will collapse
. Lots of boxes and rooms to organize the loot.
Velcome to ze new Moderatör!
in News
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Grats mate! Keep up the awesome work