Xydonus

Can Nachtfischer successfully define challenge in the context of Grand Theft Auto 5? Tune in to http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/1801-but-what-is-challenge-a-gta-discussion-thread/ for another exciting adventure!

Can we move the "What can change the nature of a Game" discussion somewhere else, along with the "3D == Bad?"

You realise that Zelda: Ocarina of Time was released 15 years ago? Of course it can't hold up with current games, but back in the day it was one of the best games available on N64... Why? Because of the awesome music, story, characters, game experience, graphics, sidequests ... etc.
 
Zork sucks too compared to current titles ... but still it was a milestone of computer gaming at some point of time.
 
 
Back on Topic:
How are the shooting controls of GTAV? Do they play as strange as in other Rockstar titles or has it improved?

In reference to the Dwarf Fortress debate earlier on; after watching 4 parts of that tutorial, I've kinda grasped the basics of it. I went against sound advice and decided to install the Masterwork DF and played about an hour of that.
 
I also turned off invasions via the .ini so I don't have to worry about sieges while I play the game. I still have to deal with roaming savages and that, but I turned that down to low so it isn't a big problem.
 
Got a very basic underground cavern laid out and some empty rooms. Still coming to grasp with managing the dwarfs which is a lot of micromanagement, but I reckon things will speed up once I get the hang of it. I do love all the depth that lies beneath this game its just a shame its not very accessible compared to UnReal World, but I am liking it so far.

To sum it up,
 
UnReal World is a roguelike hardcore survival game that has been around since 1992. Development updates have increased recently with numerous updates to the game along with a graphical update that is due very soon. It's set during the Iron Age, in a setting loosely based on ancient Finland.
 
UnReal World has gone free now; however they are now relying on donations and encourage those who download and enjoy the game, to donate whatever they want towards the game.
 
It is my favorite survival roguelike game and I dare say the best on the market if your looking for a hardcore survival sim.
 
http://www.unrealworld.fi/
 
http://www.unrealworld.fi/urw_development.html List of development features, not always updated however.

The world is randomly generated, although the shape of the continent is roughly the same every time, this has to do with the regions the various cultures inhabit.
 
One thing that's unusual about the controls is that you control your facing and then move forward / backward accordingly. It takes some getting used to but I find it rather nice. It also adds the element of view cone into the game, as every creature has a direction they're facing at any given time, instead of being able to see 360 degrees around you as in many roguelikes.
 
Edit:
The game has been under development for over 20 years now, and the main developer has funded his survival on it for the most part of that time. It used to be that you could buy just the current major version for 3 dollars, or current major version and all updates to it for 10 dollars, or every version of the game ever for 35 dollars.
Ever since he made the game free though, the number of downloads has tripled but his income has been cut in half. If you dig the game, it might be worth it to throw a few pennies their way.

Glad you like it; I was worried this thread was going down a path of too much Dwarf Fortress
 
What culture did you pick?
 
Regarding hunting in general, don't underestimate trappings! Trap trap trap! Learn to build effective traps, specifically staked pits which are easy to make and are effective if you build them in area's that show signs of animal tracks such as deer. Just don't forget to check them now and again, so its a good idea to build them nearby. Usually every two days is good enough, longer than that and you may find yourself coming back to some spoiled smelly meat which has the side-effect of deterring certain animals.
 
When your going to actively hunt I recommend learning to throw spears; javelins are easy enough to make yourself. You can also throw rocks at medium sized wildlife and you might score a lucky hit, if your desperate. Hunting however is difficult to master at the start as you'll have to learn how to use the hide function effectively, and knowing when and when not too attack your prey. A good investment for early on is a fish net, if you can get your hands on one, or you can make one. However, be sure to check the net between a day and two days, no more otherwise you'll end up getting rotting fish.
 
The whole animal-to-animal relationship is very complicated and has had some big changes to it recently. You can check some of the past dev blogs to get an idea of just how complex it is. For example; the game follows a natural order of things when it comes to prey vs predator. So deer can get preyed upon by their natural predators and this is all simulated even when your not about. Bears will go fishing and scavenging for food, including any food you happen to leave about which also includes you. I once had a bear approach my camp; it would have mauled me to death if it wasn't for my dog barking, which woke me up and I did a complete legger in the opposite direction
 
Of course, animals are not the only thing you have to worry about. Fellow npc's that roam the lands. Most are friendly but out to the far east you'll have the more aggressive tribes which tend to expand, so you'll want to keep an eye on that. Combat with an npc can be very unpredictable and harsh, but challenging and fun and very very intense. A single well placed arrow is all it takes to kill someone in this game. An arrow in the leg, while it may not be serious it will certainly force you to rest up months on end depending on how severe it is.
I once fell off a tree that I had climbed to get a birds eye view and it was a very nasty fall. Broke my leg, my arm and suffered some very bad bruising to my ribs. I was building my camp at the time and I had to delay it for over 6 months. That's how long it took for me to recover. Not only that, I became completely dependent on my trappings and the nearby village for food. I couldn't go on a hunt as most of my time was resting up.
 
Sam has said that the next updates will be focusing on npc interaction, relationships and trade. So that will be exciting stuff.
 
 
Edit* Forgot to say; you can buy animals at most villages. Bulls and that are good for pack carriers. Only thing is they are very expensive to buy and it can be hard to workout what exactly the village wants in exchange for them.
 
Here's a graphical mod that I recommend which works with the latest version - http://z3.invisionfree.com/UrW_forum/index.php?showtopic=1921

Oh god,
So I decided to give UnReal World a shot, that was 5 hours ago.
I've been playing and learning the basics ever since.
 
Nethack was a bore for me, DF had a too steep learning curve to pick up properly in an afternoon - This game looks amazing though.
I've not even begun to grasp the concepts of most things, but with the Wiki in one hand I've been surviving at least - after a couple of close calls with starvation! I'm yet to successfully hunt an animal, but I've been fishing, crafted a shelter, made several weapons, explored a shitton, and still not yet bored.
I WANT TO HAVE AN ANIMAL TO CARRY MY STUFF AROUND!
Also, I nearly died from exposure to begin with, before I figured that you can sleep anywhere if it's a clear night and there's not much nearby. Also, those villagers are good folks letting me sleep in their houses when it rains

That hubble telescope is pretty awesome.  I should get something like that to put on my next mission so I can have a camera pointed at the planet I'm orbiting.
 
Jool Sattelite Probe

Well, here's mine. These were taken in a older version of Kerbal, as the new one broke most of the mods I was using so I've not updated yet.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Well, here's mine. These were taken in a older version of Kerbal, as the new one broke most of the mods I was using so I've not updated yet.
 
 
 
 
 
 

To sum it up,
 
UnReal World is a roguelike hardcore survival game that has been around since 1992. Development updates have increased recently with numerous updates to the game along with a graphical update that is due very soon. It's set during the Iron Age, in a setting loosely based on ancient Finland.
 
UnReal World has gone free now; however they are now relying on donations and encourage those who download and enjoy the game, to donate whatever they want towards the game.
 
It is my favorite survival roguelike game and I dare say the best on the market if your looking for a hardcore survival sim.
 
http://www.unrealworld.fi/
 
http://www.unrealworld.fi/urw_development.html List of development features, not always updated however.

Another recommendation for URW from me. People who have talked with me about game dev stuff no doubt already know I refer to URW often. The reason is simple: it is one of the very few games that approach wilderness survival, building and crafting in a fairly realistic manner. Even if you end up not liking the game, it's good to check out just so you see and example of how these things can be implemented.
 
Don't expect to see trees turning into planks in a minute here!

I hear what your saying, and I agree on some parts. Digital data has its disadvantages, it isn't all rosy dosy in the digital world and having a physical copy can ensure extra security and ease of mind.
 
However, you have to look at this from the developer point of view. For an indie studio, physical distribution is very rare. There's a reason for that; cost. I have no need to explain the sort of financial burden developers have to endure with physical copies as that's been explained further up. From a business point of view, TIS will only ever consider such a thing if it benefits them financially. If they feel that the risk is too great, and not worth it, well, they won't do it.
 
 
 
I strongly disagree on the quoted part. I've been a victim of digital mess from EA having lost games via their service and being told that they can't find the games and there's nothing they can do. Burnout Ultimate Paradise, BF2 Bad Company and BF2 disappeared completely from my EA account.
 
Also, things like Impulse getting taken over by Gamestop is another example of the murky waters that is the digital world. What guarantees are in place for them to continue the service? How strongly are your digital rights protected? I would argue the digital protection laws are weak at best, with many loopholes.
 
Take Steam for example. Now, it's been reported before when the question was asked about what would happen if Steam ever went out of business, as highly unlikely as that may seem. While I don't have the exact quote, Gabe said on the lines that all customer assets would be protected and that the games will be programmed to function without Steam. That's nice.
 
Except that's nowhere within the Steam Eula (unless this has changed recently) and the word of the man in charge doesn't translate to law nor does it provide a guarantee.
 
So no, regardless of what you may think, having a digital copy does NOT mean you are guaranteed to have that game forever.

I hear what your saying, and I agree on some parts. Digital data has its disadvantages, it isn't all rosy dosy in the digital world and having a physical copy can ensure extra security and ease of mind.
 
However, you have to look at this from the developer point of view. For an indie studio, physical distribution is very rare. There's a reason for that; cost. I have no need to explain the sort of financial burden developers have to endure with physical copies as that's been explained further up. From a business point of view, TIS will only ever consider such a thing if it benefits them financially. If they feel that the risk is too great, and not worth it, well, they won't do it.
 
 
 
I strongly disagree on the quoted part. I've been a victim of digital mess from EA having lost games via their service and being told that they can't find the games and there's nothing they can do. Burnout Ultimate Paradise, BF2 Bad Company and BF2 disappeared completely from my EA account.
 
Also, things like Impulse getting taken over by Gamestop is another example of the murky waters that is the digital world. What guarantees are in place for them to continue the service? How strongly are your digital rights protected? I would argue the digital protection laws are weak at best, with many loopholes.
 
Take Steam for example. Now, it's been reported before when the question was asked about what would happen if Steam ever went out of business, as highly unlikely as that may seem. While I don't have the exact quote, Gabe said on the lines that all customer assets would be protected and that the games will be programmed to function without Steam. That's nice.
 
Except that's nowhere within the Steam Eula (unless this has changed recently) and the word of the man in charge doesn't translate to law nor does it provide a guarantee.
 
So no, regardless of what you may think, having a digital copy does NOT mean you are guaranteed to have that game forever.

These fourth-dimensional bastards are goin' to pay for shootin' up my community manager . . .

Agreed Xydonus, and to further expound upon your point, a society driven by greed. It's the conceit that we 'must' have this game even though we can't afford it/don't want to pay for it/it might not be good/whatever that really drives this. The idea that because we want something, therefor we deserve it. It's a side effect of the silly, privileged lives we lead.

Except the latter bears real world consequence.
 
When someone pirates something, there's very little risk involved, hence the appeal of it. Although your analogy is still correct.
 
Problem with piracy, and the basic fundamental reason why people do it (even if they proclaim they do it for other reasons) is because its easy. It's easy for them to sit behind their computer, type a few words in google and get something for free. It's still wrong to do it regardless.
 
It really all comes down to the level of risk which is the deciding factor. Know those fruit stands outside a shop? The ones that are left unattended most of the time while the shopkeeper is inside. Well occasionally you might see a kid or even an adult swipe a piece of fruit of its stand, only because it was easy with relatively little risk.
 
If the risk factor ever went up when it comes to piracy (talking about downloading here, not uploading!) then I'm pretty sure those who pirate would think twice. If there was a lot more risk involved, then yeah the analogy of robbing a bookstore would carry more weight. Right now its about swiping fruit; albeit more expensive fruit.
 
Personally, I don't judge people who pirate because how much blame can you place on someone if the temptation to save money is presented to them in an easy medium? The problem is access, and its incredibly easy for them to get something for nothing. People love getting free stuff, and can anyone blame them for giving into the temptation? While technically its not free, to them it is; sometimes the temptation for it is too much. It's just how people are in a society ruled by money.

I would challenge anyone whose knowledge of guns came only from Grand Theft Auto to actually fire a gun in real life. Seriously. You point and press one button. Most of the people who play GTA probably couldn't even load a sporting rifle or assault rifle. They might be able to manage a revolver or a pump action shotgun (but probably not a break action shotgun). If I had no real world experience with guns and had just learned from GTA, I wouldn't even realize that safeties exist. All in all, like I said, it's a crock of bullshit from people looking for an excuse to blame tragedies on and people who are just vying for attention.

P1 _ I don't pirate games because it's illegal and immoral
P2 _ I pirate games because it's easier and cheaper
P1 _ How can you expect the economy to work and people to live on such a basis ?
P2 _ Maybe that's the last thing i'm expecting
P1 _ Come on, u think PZ developpers exploit chinese children and feed your data to the NSA ? On the contrary, their independent work might even contribute to moving the system towards something better... ** her/his iPhone ringing **
P2 _ Look, i'm not saying what i'm doing is good or bad, i'm just saying i'm not gonna waste my life working just to be able to legally play games or watch movies. This is not exactly the world i wanna live for. ** state allowance & Greenpeace contributor cards fall from her/his pocket **
P1 _ Fuck off you useless parasite !
P2 _ Fuck off you brainwashed cannon fodder !
GAME OVER

I'm more concerned that this took place in a town called Slaughter...
 
If this was April Fools I'd be calling it a nasty media prank.
 
But seriously, a town called Slaughter! You can't make this shit up!

I'm more concerned that this took place in a town called Slaughter...
 
If this was April Fools I'd be calling it a nasty media prank.
 
But seriously, a town called Slaughter! You can't make this shit up!

Women...
 
While we are on the sub-subject of sexualized (I didn't even know that was a legit word!) clothing  and 'provocative' messages being sent across, if I may twist that entirely to bring you a tale that happened to me this morning. I was getting a massage at my local gym which is not something I normally partake in, as I find it a bit strange for someone wanting to get rubbed down by a complete stranger, but my muscles were at me after a workout so I said fuck it..
 
So in I go, I pay the exorbitant fee and I'm met with this rather large and strangely intimidating woman with the largest droopy breasts you could possibly imagine (some of you will have no trouble imagining that) pouring out of the smallest possible cover. The cleavage.. It was like the Grand Canyon all over again. Being a gentleman and a courteous sort, I put my willpower into full gear to avert my gaze as much as possible, something that was under a lot of strain.
 
So anyway, she was going to be my masseuse. No problem. About 10 mins in, she starts standing in front of me as she's working my shoulders and upper back, and I get this sensation on the back of my head... Boing, Boing... Haha no, seriously.. I was getting smacked on the head by her Double Humongous Melons. My head was being used as a bouncy castle and she was enjoying the bouncing.
 
At this point, I was getting quite a few confusing messages across and it turned into a very surreal experience. She also did a few things I'm pretty sure a masseuse shouldn't do.. But I digress, you don't want to hear the details of that.
 
Anyhow, my point being; women can be dangerous. They can back a man into a corner and be deliberately (or in my case, passively - Although I can bloody tell you the passive provocation didn't last long and moved onto something else) provocative, and then cry foul later. I'm not saying that's always the case, certainly not, but usually that side of the story is rarely ever explored.

That contains a full chapter according to the demo. "The demo features the first chapter of the game, the Oswald Asylum."
 
Hence, short. Just my observation, since there's going to be 5 chapters? Maybe they'll vary in length as I suspect, who knows.

The problem that our friend here has helped make clear to me is that (unless you pick hypochondriac) if you've been scratched you know whether you've been infected or not. So yes, it's nice to have that tiny chance, but it doesn't add anything to the "once you've become infected" stage of the game.
 
And what really gets me down (and always have) is the sheer amount of people who just pack their things up, walk out in the street, and commit suicide when they get infected. And for me, personally, I think that's a horrible way to end a game and I don't think anyone really benefits from that. For you, when you do it, it just feels silly and stupid, because no real person would say "Hey I'm infected, I'm going to dance naked in the street while the zombies eat me." While suicide could be an option, it certainly wouldn't be like that and personally I think most people would follow the "I'm fine, I'm not going to get infected" train of thought anyways. But that entire facet of zombie lore is lost with our current system.
 
So, in the oddest way possible, I think that yes there should be a tiny chance of at the least infection not killing you right out, just having many severe effects. I think perhaps it should even be remotely possible in a fraction of a fraction of cases to be nursed back to health with the right care. Just enough of the hypothetical 'carrot' so people don't instantly give up on any sick character.