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Is Feminism Still Necessary?  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the wage gap really caused by Systematic Gender Discrimination?

  2. 2. Is Rape Culture Real?

  3. 3. Is abortion a woman's right issue or a human's right issue?

    • Woman's Right issue
    • Human's Right issue


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I am constantly hear about Feminism and it's goals and wanted to see some debate over some of the key issues.

 

1) The Wage Gap, Do you believe the wage gap is gender discremination or a side-effect of Career-Choice/benefits received/hours worked/vacation time/maternity leave/etc.?

 

2) Do you believe as a culture we encourage the rape and victimization of women (I'm restricting this to the NON middle east because I think we can say it's pretty prevalent there)?

 

3) Do you believe abortion is a woman's right to bodily autonomy or do we as a race have to the responsibility to ensure the safe carriage of our children who are unable to care for themselves?

 

I tried to make the questions as un-biased as possible however if some of my own bias slipped in I apologize.

 

Edit: When you vote please also post so we can form a discussion, Thanks.

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I am constantly hear about Feminism and it's goals and wanted to see some debate over some of the key issues.

 

1) The Wage Gap, Do you believe the wage gap is gender discremination or a side-effect of Career-Choice/benefits received/hours worked/vacation time/maternity leave/etc.?

 

2) Do you believe as a culture we encourage the rape and victimization of women (I'm restricting this to the NON middle east because I think we can say it's pretty prevalent there)?

 

3) Do you believe abortion is a woman's right to bodily autonomy or do we as a race have to the responsibility to ensure the safe carriage of our children who are unable to care for themselves?

 

I tried to make the questions as un-biased as possible however if some of my own bias slipped in I apologize.

 

1) I think just like women has boobs, men has an ability to make better claims when negotiation wages. Some women are good at making claims, yet some men has maleboobs. I'm basically saying that each gender has its own advantages.

 

2) wtf no? How ? If it's the way they dress, well. You can't live forever, you can't fly and you can't expect that if you wanna look attractive noone will be lusting for you. There will always be bad people and you'll often unknowingly walk right by them. That's the circumstances everybody lives in. That should not be a surprise to anyone.

 

3) Women gave up that kind of right over their own body when they decided to become a host for another human being. They should be free to adopt away however.

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1) This is tiny in comparison to how men are discriminated against in the USA ie. Men can be raped by a woman and as long as they weren't penetrated then the woman can get off by saying she didn't rape him even if that most certainly was the case.

 

2) No, however, if it was then it would be the fault of feminism seeing as 'some' feminists are the reason men can be raped legally, which is ironic to say the least.

 

3) Women's rights issue? They're sharing the body with another human being and I don't care how anyone qualifies a human being, it's a human being. It was their RIGHT to lay down and get pregnant, now it's their OBLIGATION to take care of the baby the same way the man would be forced to with child support. So here's how I solve that issue quite quickly, either drop the child support b/s and allow the man to have a right to his own labor i.e his own body that he used to make that money, then sure it's a woman's rights issue, until then it's either a parents rights issue or a humans rights issue.

 

This world's attempt to make things fair for one gender has only crippled the other gender and now everyone runs all over it in the name of "equality" and it's funny how many people ignore that fact.

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My experience with men and women in the work force has generally been that male dominated businesses tend to employ more men and pay those men slightly higher wages whilst women dominated businesses tend to be far more ruthless and strict with regards to the rules but also more generous and flexible with benefits and perks.

 

I'm fairly sure that you'll find that rape in any culture is considered completely immoral in any society but yes I do feel that parents are asking for trouble if they encourage their 15 year old daughter to go to a party dressed like they are attending a BDSM convention. Look at Rihanna or Beyonce or Lord Gaga. Of course situations are all unique but to quote a country saying "The hounds only start baying when they see a fox."

 

As a Catholic I find abortion to be inherently wrong. As a realist I find bringing a human being into a life of pain, misery and possible congenital defects to be inherently wrong. I find that I can live happily in the middle ground. But I would be severely pissed off if my missus had an abortion without telling me.

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#3 Is a thorny issue since how you feel about abortion pretty much depends on belief systems and whether or not the phrase "potential life" means anything at all to you. Here is what I *do* know though - the process of carrying a baby from a fertilised egg to birth is not without great burden and cost. The psychological and emotional cost of aborting a foetus versus giving away a fully formed birthed infant are not directly comparable. And all this stuff makes it particularly difficult to legislate in an absolute way and, since men are spared many (but not all) of these burdens, I'll stand back with my hands raised and say, "not my place to comment and I won't judge either way".

 

What I *do* think is wrong, however, is that given that how you feel about abortion is pretty severely linked to how you feel about life, generally, and is therefore often heavily influenced by religious upbringing. legislating against the right to abort based on these beliefs, rather than stone cold facts, is wrong - particularly in countries with a constitution protecting the right to individual religious freedoms.

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#3 Is a thorny issue since how you feel about abortion pretty much depends on belief systems and whether or not the phrase "potential life" means anything at all to you. Here is what I *do* know though - the process of carrying a baby from a fertilised egg to birth is not without great burden and cost. The psychological and emotional cost of aborting a foetus versus handing over a fully formed birthed infant are not directly comparable. And all this stuff makes it particularly difficult to legislate in an absolute way and, since men spared many (but not all) of these burdens, I'll stand back with my hands raised and say, "not my place to comment and I won't judge either way".

 

That is definitely an understandable opinion, when you cannot experience the pain and difficulty of birth it makes it difficult to decide whether or not the life of an unborn child is worth it. I only ask the question because "Pro-Life" is generally excluded from feminism (See the latest texas anti-abortion rally for an example), and if the feminists claim to represent women then are these women simply oppressing themselves or are the feminists oppressing other women?

 

I just thought It'd make for an interesting discussion topic as it is such a big "Rights violation" for feminists in the media.

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I know in such a topic I should be serious. But... >Rape. That is all. I really have no idea what any of you are talking about means.

 

The scary thing is that you voted anyways,That could go really wrong in american politics. Please don't vote sarah palin into office she's crazy.

 

When you don't know about something it's best to research it (Be careful to read articles with LINKED references as a lot of the stats are made up) using either non-biased terms (eg. "Gender Wage Gap" not "Unfair pay for women") or do an equal amount of biased searches for each party (e.g. "Is the wage gap unfair?" and "Wage Gap Unfair to women") this will expose you to equal amounts of material from both sides of the argument giving you a more rounded view. Just to be safe make sure you check the articles sources (I remember in high school I quoted a page about WWI and one of the sources ended up being a link to a restaurant).

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1. Feel that the first point might be more to do with the fact that women are less likely to stand up and fight for themselves. (Worked for this guy who hired only women, first time he tried to make me do unreasonable stuff I told him to shove it) Where the women who worked with him generally allowed him to get away with murder.

 

2. Rape culture? Not entirely sure what that is, but it could be real I guess.

 

3. Woman has the decision since the man is not attached and the child as yet unborn.

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Coming from a work-background that requires a lot of analysis and - in the past - included providing data for the employee wages, the wage gap in a lot of research statistics is the result of a lot of factors.

What you read in the media is often just the overall average wage and not a 1:1 comparison.

There are a lot of factors that have to be taken into account. One of them is the fact that there's a higher rate of women who work part-time. I've had to work out data for a few companies (not just current data but the data from ~10 years of the company's employment history) and the result was that about 35% of the women worked part-time while only 6% of the male employees did so.

This may not be absolutely representative but I think it certainly plays a big role.

Men are also more probable to work in an environment that requires benefits like risk markups

 

Women in executive positions were often less qualified than male executives and also had a higher tendency to pause or quit their career (family reasons most of the time).

 

However, even when factoring in the length of service, experience, part-time, size of the company, education level, qualification, operating range and stuff like that, we came to the conclusion that there was still a difference of about 10%.

 

This was the overall result of all the gathered data from multiple companies. There was no explanation for this, though. Only the assumption that this percentage could be a random result of negotiating skills.

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I am constantly hear about Feminism and it's goals and wanted to see some debate over some of the key issues.

 

1) The Wage Gap, Do you believe the wage gap is gender discremination or a side-effect of Career-Choice/benefits received/hours worked/vacation time/maternity leave/etc.?

 

2) Do you believe as a culture we encourage the rape and victimization of women (I'm restricting this to the NON middle east because I think we can say it's pretty prevalent there)?

 

3) Do you believe abortion is a woman's right to bodily autonomy or do we as a race have to the responsibility to ensure the safe carriage of our children who are unable to care for themselves?

 

I tried to make the questions as un-biased as possible however if some of my own bias slipped in I apologize.

 

Edit: When you vote please also post so we can form a discussion, Thanks.

 

1) I haven't seen the evidence but I understand it has been widely reported to have a consistent and significant gap. I'm not sure if this is a net wage or cross sectional though, and whether this controls for maternaity leave etc.

I can only speak from experience in my current work place - all the senior managers I've been in contact with are women, the clinical lead is a woman, the CEO is a woman, so I guess they're doing well there.

 

2) I would definitely say it exists. I think the above actually represents this, that somehow a woman is partly responsible for rape for whatever she is wearing. Historically this is very true attitudes - she deserves it for whatever reason/behaviour. It tends to be more subtle these days ('the legitimite rape comments', 'slut walks' etc.). However, there are men out there who think everything is everyone elses fault, particularly in anti-social personality disorder, which has a high precedence in the forensic system - so it doesn't matter what the consensus is, these people will still think this way.

 

3) I am not religious and I believe in personal autonomy - so the short answer is yes, abortion is a right people have to choose.

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2) Do you believe as a culture we encourage the rape and victimization of women (I'm restricting this to the NON middle east because I think we can say it's pretty prevalent there)?

 

2) I would definitely say it exists. I think the above actually represents this, that somehow a woman is partly responsible for rape for whatever she is wearing. Historically this is very true attitudes - she deserves it for whatever reason/behaviour. It tends to be more subtle these days ('the legitimite rape comments', 'slut walks' etc.). However, there are men out there who think everything is everyone elses fault, particularly in anti-social personality disorder, which has a high precedence in the forensic system - so it doesn't matter what the consensus is, these people will still think this way.

 

I wouldn't say dress is a cause of rape or in any way makes them responsible for the incident happening. I feel as though sometimes when people comment on a women's clothing in regards to preventing rape they really only have their safety in mind. While this mindset is unfair and disheartening I understand the concept. I as a man have a right to dress nice, maybe a tux a nice rolex and a briefcase but if I do so while walking down an alleyway in the middle of the night I'm putting myself at risk. Yes, the risk was always there and I simply elevated it. This shouldn't excuse the guy/girl for jumping me but should be used as a tactic to teach safety in high-risk areas.

 

In essence "Slut shaming" is bad but "Not painting a target on your back" isn't. They have the rights to dress as they please and go as they please but evil lies around every corner in this world and it always will. We should continue to encourage people to take all possible precautions for their well-being, not doing so imho would be an act of hatred in itself.

 

I believe "Illegitimate Rape" is a statement used more define situations where a woman consented to sex but fearing embarrasment/etc. decided to make a rape accusation instead. I could be wrong.

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1) The Wage Gap, Do you believe the wage gap is gender discremination or a side-effect of Career-Choice/benefits received/hours worked/vacation time/maternity leave/etc.?


 


I think discrimination does occur and should be stopped, however I also believe that this is often overstated


 


2) Do you believe as a culture we encourage the rape and victimization of women (I'm restricting this to the NON middle east because I think we can say it's pretty prevalent there)?


 


I believe we are not doing enough to prevent it.


 


3) Do you believe abortion is a woman's right to bodily autonomy or do we as a race have to the responsibility to ensure the safe carriage of our children who are unable to care for themselves?


 


This one is tricky, as it is her body and health, but the fetus could become a fully developed human with its own mind and feeling. In my own opinion I think abortion should be legal if the mothers life in at risk, or during the first few months of the pregnancy.


 


In my own opinion I believe that gender shouldn't exist outside of the life sciences.  Throughout history it has caused so much discrimination.

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I believe "Illegitimate Rape" is a statement used more define situations where a woman consented to sex but fearing embarrasment/etc. decided to make a rape accusation instead. I could be wrong.

 

 

I was mainly referring to Todd Akin's comments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_and_pregnancy_controversies_in_United_States_elections,_2012#Todd_Akin:_.22legitimate_rape.22

 

False rape accusations do happen, definitely, but no where near on the same level as rape.

 

I think you're right with the clothing though - however it could be argued that wearing certain clothes is percieved as 'leading men on', which transfers blame to the woman - she should be able to wear whatever she wants without fear of being attacked (in an ideal world, that is). Pragmatically, I agree that drawing too much attention to yourself is never good for safety, whatever the risk is.

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I believe "Illegitimate Rape" is a statement used more define situations where a woman consented to sex but fearing embarrasment/etc. decided to make a rape accusation instead. I could be wrong.

 

 

I was mainly referring to Todd Akin's comments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_and_pregnancy_controversies_in_United_States_elections,_2012#Todd_Akin:_.22legitimate_rape.22

 

False rape accusations do happen, definitely, but no where near on the same level as rape.

 

I think you're right with the clothing though - however it could be argued that wearing certain clothes is percieved as 'leading men on', which transfers blame to the woman - she should be able to wear whatever she wants without fear of being attacked (in an ideal world, that is). Pragmatically, I agree that drawing too much attention to yourself is never good for safety, whatever the risk is.

 

 

I speak for all Humans (We had a meeting) Todd Akin isn't one of us. The problem is rape isn't a problem you can campaign against, it's a crime like murder/torture, it just can't be sorted by giving accusers the infinite power to screw someone. It is a crime and a terrible one at that but feminism isn't fighting the "Pro-Rape" party they're acting as though they can just give accusers the powers of judge and jury and the crime will disappear. Rape is a difficult crime and here in america we have (Fleeting) principles that say you're inoccent until proven guilty.

 

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

 

Attacking innocents to prevent attacks on innocents make no sense.

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I won't deign to comment on the overall topic (personal preference), but I will say that there's almost as much culture of women crying rape unfairly as there is of rape (not that I'm saying the case numbers are even remotely similar, just the amount of people that follow the mindset). There's a billboard in my town that basically says "yes doesn't mean yes." The idea that a woman can get drunk (of her own will), agree to have sex, and then legally charge the man with rape is absolutely disturbing. Light only knows that if a man tried to pull that he'd get laughed out of a courtroom, and I think that the reverse feminism that men see in situations like this is almost as bad as the reverse racism that's sweeping the States right now.

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Nearly all abhorrent human behaviors stem from human nature itself. Theft, spite, prejudice, abduction, and assault and violence especially will not cease to occur so long as there are people around to commit those acts. If a person wishes to burglarize your home, locking your door will not stop them. If a person wishes to kill, abduct, or abuse you, they will not be hindered by restraining orders, or other extensions of the law. Rape cultures only exist because cultures exist; people are shitheads, and there isn't any changing that. (yet!) 

 

It is the right of the parents to abort their child whenever they please, if they please. If you want that web of almost-not-dead flesh to live, then you raise it.

 

Does everyone in this discussion know what the term "Rape culture" means, and how significant it is? For some reason, I am terribly surprised that the votes are 50-50.

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I would argue that there are very few things essential to human beings. Attitudes, social beliefs and gender roles are all culturally and histotically specific - as well as aggression. Culture is a consensus belief and behaviour system, and is open to modification (and is constantly changing), beliefs around attribution of causes of rape, role and treatment of.victims, level of acceptability are also open to change.

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1) too complicated for me. I think much of it can be traced back to the fact that traditional gender roles still exist to some extend. Voted no cause while I'm inclined to think there is a lot of discrimination, it isn't Systematic with a capital S.

 

2) I voted no. I have no reason to believe Western Culture in general facilitates rape to the point it can be considered a rape culture. That doesn't mean that things like blaming the victim and slut shaming aren't uncommon. Also I think it's more constructive to be more specific about rape than to use a rather vague concept like rape culture.

 

3) Abortion is a complicated issue in the sense as to where the line should be drawn. Early abortion is pretty straightforward; in the first 4 months (during which an overwhelming majority of abortions take place, btw) there's nothing controversial about it. The fetus is a lump of tissue that has the potential to become a human being, but isn't one yet. All kinds of potential persons never happen, nature/God is the most proficient abortionist of all and miscarriages are rarely treated as regular deaths. It's not a big deal in my book. 6 month and up it definitely is a big deal (an in: at least manslaughter). and as far as I'm concerned the controversial time is roughly between those two lines.

 

Other moral considerations are the morality of bringing an unwanted kid in a world that's already full of unwanted kids and orphans. I think to many people still think of "Annie" when they hear the word orphan, but the reality of it is a lot less fun and void of catchy songs. One can ask themselves how ethical it is for women who ditch their child after carrying it to term because of their beliefs. I think it's pretty egocentric in its own right. Also interesting to note. It's clear the great majority of so called pro-lifers don't bother to adopt said orphans and abandoned kids. It's rather hypocritical if you think of it, and it illustrates that they're actually just pro-birthers that don't really give a f*** about the well-being of said kids.

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#1) There's no in-between, so I'm going to have go with 'no'. I personally think people are just imagining that it's discrimination when it's just some workplaces owned by a magical mystery corporation not caring for their employees. Now, I don't work in an office, so my opinon is probably horribly biased. Then again, there could be some discrimination lurking about in some of them.

 

#2) If you're talking about foreplay, then yeah. I never really hear much about this "culture" here in the South US. Aussies might since their politics has more parties than a frat house.

 

#3) Oh boy, here we go. I have no opinion on this. It's a shitstorm debate because of religious organizations trying to bring church to state. No more no less.

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Rape culture - 

Fuck no, I never heard this even being brought up until Britain became the whore of immigration with her legs spread wider than my own sisters and we adopted that total bull-shit ideal of "multiculturalism" which will never work accurately because there is always going to be an issue between the two cultures we are trying to live alongside with.

Christians disagree with something in the quaran

Muslims disagree with something in the bible

All hell breaks loose between the two and Christianity is tagged as a racially discriminating religion, which makes fuck-all sense

because bobs your uncle Islam/Christianity isn't a race.

 

 

Abortions - 

It's a womans body and therefore it's her choice. Leave it at that.

 

Wages -

I don't really have anyhting to say on that.

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#3) Oh boy, here we go. I have no opinion on this. It's a shitstorm debate because of religious organizations trying to bring church to state. No more no less.

 

I have to disagree with this last part. I know plenty of "pro-life" people who aren't remotely religious, plenty of "pro-choice" people who are religious, and trying to blame the issue on religion is just a way to get around approaching it properly. There are religious nuts on both sides, and atheists on both sides. The world isn't nearly as black and white as you paint it there.

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I'm not sure where I stand on a lot of things, but I really hate assertions of "if you don't want to be sexually assaulted, don't go around dressing provocatively". That's fucked. People, men or women, shouldn't live in fear of being assaulted because of what they're wearing, and then being blamed because their skirt was too short or their shirt was too tight.

 

Someone could be walking around butt naked and that still doesn't give you the right or make it understandable that you attack them. It also continues this disgusting trend I keep seeing on the internet that people keep saying about rape victims: "Oh, she was asking for it with that outfit". That's fucked.

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