Xunzul Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Hi, im new and i want suggest this idea. New item, Pikeaxe for mining. New minable rocks areas in game map.(mining create noise and attract zombies) New skill as, mining, smelting and metalworks.(Maybe "survey skill" too if it like) More the mining skill increase, more possibility to find metals instead simple rocks. New craftable item made with rocks "Furnace" used for smelting. New items Rocks(i know it's alredy post as idea in the forum), raw metals. New items craftable with "fournaces": metals bars, Anvil. New items craftable with "anvils", weapons, various tools and objects as hammers, doors metal parts and pickaxe... maybe armors?(for avoid zombies bites but slow movements) New areas as water/fiashable spots, as lakes or rivers. New items, fish rod, various type of fish, baits made with cooking skill or survey skill by scavenging worms in the dirt terrain after rain or in rotten corpse... u.u New cooking recipes made with fish. Footmuffin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harakka Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 The game is meant to be at least remotely realistic. Thus the mining and metalcrafting stuff you mentioned are extremely unlikely to get implemented. Fishing will be implemented at some point. Fj45 and Rathlord 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcentriCreation Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I like the Idea of Metalworking/Fabricating but its been discussed at length in other topicsFishing is also another good idea, however mining & smelting isn't the sort of thing an average joe would be able to do by himself....Perhaps if you could explore a mine, mine a small amount or ore & smelt it but I don't think there are any ore mines in Kentucky....This site states that mining in Kentucky is limited to coal, limestone, fluorspar, rock asphalt, gravel and sand-all products of sedimentation.... no metals welcome to the forums EDIT:Steel can be looted & scavenged easily enough anyways BATH COUNTYOWINGSVILLE, area iron mines-HematiteMy bad..... but still, PZ is set in Knox County Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xunzul Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Oh, i don't know about Kentucky lack of metal minerals Whetever a solution can be found about that. If you hit a door with axe, after destroy it you'll obtain door parts plus planks... but if you use a destroy hammer on a wall or something else, you don't obtain materials. Can be implemented to obtain materials from all, as metal scraps, rocks ecc ecc... using it to craft a fournace where can be smelted the metals scraps to obrain ingots or bars. After that the impossibile can be revert in possibile ^_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harakka Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I really wish all this metallurgy business was as simple as people in these threads think it is. Just pile some rocks in your backyard and warm it up a bit and there you go! The ancient peoples would have loved it to be so. Rathlord 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcentriCreation Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I worked in a foundry for a while, smelting & molding isn't all that complicated.... USUALLY a 2 man job but it CAN be done by 1 man Building a furnace is pretty simple as well.... relatively speaking. You can make a decent one out of concrete.... EDIT:The hardest part would be finding the ladle (that's what they call it in the trade though the scientific word is "crucible") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connall Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I worked in a foundry for a while, smelting & molding isn't all that complicated.... USUALLY a 2 man job but it CAN be done by 1 man Building a furnace is pretty simple as well.... relatively speaking. You can make a decent one out of concrete.... EDIT:The hardest part would be finding the ladle (that's what they call it in the trade though the scientific word is "crucible") The thing is, which is something harakka touches on, is of course something is easy IF you have the knowledge. How many people have the knowledge to do something like that though? That's the bigger question. I don't know how to build a furnace and I imagine others don't as well, it's just not really common knowledge. Fj45 and Rathlord 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcentriCreation Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 How many people know how to build a table with draws? Your Fabricating skill would start off with rigging scrap steel to your barricades & as the skill progresses you unlock more complex builds like furnaces.... Just like carpentry works atm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harakka Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I worked in a foundry for a while, smelting & molding isn't all that complicated.... USUALLY a 2 man job but it CAN be done by 1 manI assume the foundry you worked at was not built from stones and bricks in someone's backyard? How was the furnace powered?Building a furnace is pretty simple as well.... relatively speaking. You can make a decent one out of concrete.... EDIT:The hardest part would be finding the ladle (that's what they call it in the trade though the scientific word is "crucible") Relatively speaking, indeed. You also need access to enough gas fuel to do an useful amount of work. You need to be able to create molds assuming you want to cast the metal. Sand is an option but mass producing stuff with sandcasting is again quite a bit of work. With a homemade furnace like in the video you'd primarily be able to melt bronze and aluminium (as in the video). Ferrous metals probably aren't an option. And none of this takes into account the idea of going into a mine, whacking a bit of stone off the wall, and refining the metal content in it into something usable. In big enough quantities to be useful. And if you have access to a decent amount of heat I don't know why anyone would bother doing any of this, since the world is already handily full of things made of steel, which you can take apart, reshape and forge to suit your purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcentriCreation Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 The furnace at the foundry I worked in was exactly the same as the one in the video only scaled up about 5 times with solid walls instead of bricks, powered by gas..... Ferrous metals just need more burners inside the furnace, again easy & safe to fabricate as long as your using flashback arresters on your gas line.Sandcasting requires requires resin in your sand so it will mold solid but you only need to do that to cast complex shapes.... casting Bullion, Sheet, Solid Section can be cast in fabricated molds (technically complex shapes can be cast in fabricated molds though thats approaching expert paternmaking skills) already addressed mining earlier in the topic, thought we were talking about re-purposing scrap metal EDIT:Wait..... maybe not 5 times.... more like 3 & what do you mean "relatively speaking indeed" how does that compare to making an entire building out of wood? Anyways, to summarize my point. Mining is unrealistic but there was nothing wrong with the other ideas in the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorny1 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Why would people mining for surviving ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harakka Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 & what do you mean "relatively speaking indeed" how does that compare to making an entire building out of wood? I meant it is relatively easy if you have access to the building materials, the knowledge, crucible(s) and fuel. For the sake of disclosure I've never built one, or worked in a foundry, but I've read about what making and using one entails since I was planning on building one (although smaller) for bronze casting. Didn't end up doing it for various reasons. Maybe one day, when I have more space available. And no, I don't find the current wooden building construction system realistic either. Gammlernoob and Rathlord 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xunzul Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Why would people mining for surviving ?The answer is simple and i can ask you similar things about it as answers. Why you have to build a own house, with tables, walls, chests, doors, windows ecc ecc, when all you need and lots of empty houses can be found on the map? We're players, we're playing at this game for have fun, lots of people just have fun killing zombies, others to explore and loot, other's to create... im one of these lasts. For my personal opinion, the great potential of this game is the "crafting", the opportunity to create object and interact with the map and build a place where live and make the character in condition to live as he like. We're humans and if we live a situation similar at project zomboid in real, we don't need only to survive, but also to make a better life aroud us, building our future, return to be normal people and to do that we need to rebuild our life space and our comodities. Nobody in normal life do carpentery, smithing, gardening or cooking "TO SURVIVE", cos we can go buy fried potatos and hamburgers on fastfood, so, in project zomboid what for us is an hobby for it is a necessity, studying books for survive not for job/money... and if i was as a person in an apocalitic zomboid world, i would to know how can i make all necessary things for survive and be happy for entire life, not only for the next day/week/year. Is fun crafting objects, is fun farming, is fun build own propety... if you erase all these things the life as the game become booring and if zombies aren't capable to kill my character.... then i will. If the character aren't able to learn new things about that new life in zomboid world, then, he don't deserve to live, like humans in a similar apocalitic zombies world... so, for my opinion, more skill, more crafting objects and more crafting building things are needed. The impossible isn't what "you" can't do, but what "all" can't do... so if an engeneer can build a fournace, it's possibile, the knowledge must be aviable to all want use it for survive that way(science way), as the brute force must be for those who want to live fighting, running and looting(fighter way). I don't want play only as a warrior only cos some players see that as the only possibile way to live and have fun. P.s. Sorry for my bad english, im italian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapidcore Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Why would people mining for surviving ?The answer is simple, and I could ask you the same thing. Why would you build a house with tables, walls, chests, doors, etc. when there are many to be found empty on the map? We are players, we are playing a game for fun and players always have fun doing different things. Some have fun killing zombies, others have fun exploring, finding loot and some even have fun building or creating things, and I am one of them. My personal opinion is that the crafting system of this game has the greatest potential. It is the opportunity to create objects allowing us to interact with the map and build a place that would suit our character needs while also please our creative nature. We are humans and if we would ever face a situation similar to that in Project Zomboid we would not only be striving for our survival but also thinking one step ahead. Planning for the future, a future where we would possibly prevail and return some semblance of our former lives. Nobody in their daily life does carpentry, smithing, gardening "TO SURVIVE" because we can buy our food, our shovels, our houses. But in Project Zomboid what to us was only a hobby would turn into the means for our survival, we would then acquire knowledge not for a job or money but to endure the crisis, persevere through it and hopefully create a opportunity for a normal, happy life. At least I wouldn't be planning just for the next day or next week. It's fun crafting objects, it's fun farming and building your own property but if you would erase all these things the game would become boring and if the zombies will not succeeded in killing my character then.... I will. If the character won't be able to learn new things to adapt to the zomboid world then he doesn't deserve to live. So, in my opinion, in order to adapt and survive that kind of world acquiring the knowledge and skills to build and repair things and replace or create new stuff is absolutely needed. The impossible isn't about what you can't do but what we, all together, could achieve. So if an engineer can build a furnace then the knowledge must be available creating a opportunity for those who seek it to survive, the science way and that would be an alternative to those who will try to survive just through brute force; fighting, running and looting. I wouldn't want to play just as a warrior only because some players do not see the alternatives that would be just as fun. P.s. Sorry for my gud english, I am italian. I have to agree. You do make a compelling argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xunzul Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Thanks for agree and all the english corrections you've made Whetever im happy about my arguments are understandable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 There's monumental differences between building a table with drawers and building a functional furnace capable of melting even tin. Furnaces require at least a certain amount of foreknowledge to make- it's highly dubious that anyone would have the resources or time in a situation like this to just "figure out" a functional furnace if they didn't know how to make one, not to mention how to cast and such. It may seem like common knowledge to you, but most people wouldn't even know to add bellows, much less what do with the metal once it was melted, etc. Woodworking, on the other hand, is something even normal people can figure out. Add to that, the materials for woodworking are exponentially more commonplace, not to mention the knowledge of woodworking being equally vastly more common, and I hope you can see that comparison breaks down rapidly. On the whole the idea would just require far too many fortuitous events to be worth the time developing it and adding it. That you'd just happen to be a character with the knowledge of how to build a forge, that you'd just happen to be a character with the knowledge of what to do with a forge once it was built, that you'd just happen to find all of the quite rare materials for the forge, and that you'd just happen to have it all come together in such a way that it would be plausible. Far to much serendipity and happenstance- it's a bad, unrealistic idea that doesn't fit PZ. tomga1, Fj45 and AirborneM4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Why would people mining for surviving ?The answer is simple and i can ask you similar things about it as answers. Why you have to build a own house, with tables, walls, chests, doors, windows ecc ecc, when all you need and lots of empty houses can be found on the map? We're players, we're playing at this game for have fun, lots of people just have fun killing zombies, others to explore and loot, other's to create... im one of these lasts. For my personal opinion, the great potential of this game is the "crafting", the opportunity to create object and interact with the map and build a place where live and make the character in condition to live as he like. We're humans and if we live a situation similar at project zomboid in real, we don't need only to survive, but also to make a better life aroud us, building our future, return to be normal people and to do that we need to rebuild our life space and our comodities. Nobody in normal life do carpentery, smithing, gardening or cooking "TO SURVIVE", cos we can go buy fried potatos and hamburgers on fastfood, so, in project zomboid what for us is an hobby for it is a necessity, studying books for survive not for job/money... and if i was as a person in an apocalitic zomboid world, i would to know how can i make all necessary things for survive and be happy for entire life, not only for the next day/week/year. Is fun crafting objects, is fun farming, is fun build own propety... if you erase all these things the life as the game become booring and if zombies aren't capable to kill my character.... then i will. If the character aren't able to learn new things about that new life in zomboid world, then, he don't deserve to live, like humans in a similar apocalitic zombies world... so, for my opinion, more skill, more crafting objects and more crafting building things are needed. The impossible isn't what "you" can't do, but what "all" can't do... so if an engeneer can build a fournace, it's possibile, the knowledge must be aviable to all want use it for survive that way(science way), as the brute force must be for those who want to live fighting, running and looting(fighter way). I don't want play only as a warrior only cos some players see that as the only possibile way to live and have fun. P.s. Sorry for my bad english, im italian. You STILL haven't answered WHY people would need to mine! Yorny1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xunzul Posted January 2, 2014 Author Share Posted January 2, 2014 There's monumental differences between building a table with drawers and building a functional furnace capable of melting even tin. Furnaces require at least a certain amount of foreknowledge to make- it's highly dubious that anyone would have the resources or time in a situation like this to just "figure out" a functional furnace if they didn't know how to make one, not to mention how to cast and such. It may seem like common knowledge to you, but most people wouldn't even know to add bellows, much less what do with the metal once it was melted, etc. Woodworking, on the other hand, is something even normal people can figure out. Add to that, the materials for woodworking are exponentially more commonplace, not to mention the knowledge of woodworking being equally vastly more common, and I hope you can see that comparison breaks down rapidly. On the whole the idea would just require far too many fortuitous events to be worth the time developing it and adding it. That you'd just happen to be a character with the knowledge of how to build a forge, that you'd just happen to be a character with the knowledge of what to do with a forge once it was built, that you'd just happen to find all of the quite rare materials for the forge, and that you'd just happen to have it all come together in such a way that it would be plausible. Far to much serendipity and happenstance- it's a bad, unrealistic idea that doesn't fit PZ. So... let me know if im wrong, the character created are all stupids or elementary school subject only ? The ignorance is a predominant in project zomboid world ? The common man, the common girl is the only people who are affected from that world ? So the women or the men who have only study in his/her life and know how to smelt, forge and create objects and devices forget all the knowlege learned in a life to pickup a basball bat and going to crush heads? Sorry but, this is the type of game only for kids, im 33 years old and i don't have fun to play as a kid. Project Zomboid uses to enhance the crafting system too and i think is a beautiful thing cos let the game be fun for creativity people too not only for head crusher. Want to know what's real ? I made for hobby in real life a solar panels with raw materials brought in a hardware shop... and i won't give engeneer lessons but, do you know how many things can be done with torch welder? Do you know the fusion temperature of gold, silver, copper ? Do you know the propeties of a fournace that have a combustion chamber that maintain and increase heat cos prevent it from dispersion ? Do you know about iron age ? Here a image with a link for the sceptics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age So, you want me to believe we can't work the iron in 2014 when the humankind work it from the 1300 b.c. ? This is umbeliveable haha this is impossible. There's book explaining how to do that now, there's hardware shops have all kind of things to make it possibile. The impossibile thing is, the men in 1300 b.c. for work the iron use days of time and phisics energy to pump air in the furnace and let the heat increase, in the present days we use gas and other combustion materials doing all the dirty work in a quarter of time or less. Impossibile you say ? Only for those who see the possible where others see the impossibile now we live with the confort of present day. (Just call it "evolution").You STILL haven't answered WHY people would need to mine! To obtain raw materials from rocks to iron, if iron is not aviable in Kentuchy then can be implemented a scaveging system for metal scraps that can be melted for metalworks purpose. What's the need? Reinforced wall, fences, weapons, armors, tools etc... a good game must permit all kind of things or most of it of what a human person can do in real life... and i don't talk only about those who know only the panic, to run, loot and kill, but also of those who have a brain to think, create and save his life with proper knowledge and creativity. And now another personal note... i was playing and afther a month(in game) a build a personal outpost with walls where zombies can't pass, i have food and water, i can live there for years... so, i end the game... !? I want more build option, i want something to push me out of that outpost, i want to evolve my outpost, i don't like go out to kill zombies... let me know if im wrong... in real, if you are in a secure zone with food and all you need to survive... you go out risk your life to have fun kill zombies? Or remain in the secure zone ? So the impossibile is, a man go out risk his life for useless purpose. But if i have to go out for mining, fishing or scavenge for raw materials to upgrade my outpost and life prospective, then i think it's a good purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The average person is extremely stupid. Your average person wouldn't be able to saw a log, let alone mine and smelt. Yorny1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Fun fact, we've reached (and passed) the SPACE AGE now. So please, go build me a space ship… since, you know, everyone on earth can do the thing the age is named after? PZ is not about playing as children, it's about playing as an average person. The entire point of the entire concept of PZ is to NOT be another unrealistic arcade-y zombie game where you play as a genius superhero with the knowledge of every profession in the world. I think I'm done wasting my time talking to you now; you have no concept of reason or logical argument. Fj45 and Yorny1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connall Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The average person is extremely stupid. Your average person wouldn't be able to saw a log, let alone mine and smelt. To expand on this... We're not saying player characters are idiots. Or at least I'm not, not sure about Fj45 The problem is (and the thing that sticks out most about this) So... let me know if im wrong, the character created are all stupids or elementary school subject only ? The ignorance is a predominant in project zomboid world ? The common man, the common girl is the only people who are affected from that world ? So the women or the men who have only study in his/her life and know how to smelt, forge and create objects and devices forget all the knowlege learned in a life to pickup a basball bat and going to crush heads? Sorry but, this is the type of game only for kids, im 33 years old and i don't have fun to play as a kid. Project Zomboid uses to enhance the crafting system too and i think is a beautiful thing cos let the game be fun for creativity people too not only for head crusher. Want to know what's real ? I made for hobby in real life a solar panels with raw materials brought in a hardware shop... and i won't give engeneer lessons but, do you know how many things can be done with torch welder? Do you know the fusion temperature of gold, silver, copper ? Do you know the propeties of a fournace that have a combustion chamber that maintain and increase heat cos prevent it from dispersion ? Do you know about iron age ? Here a image with a link for the sceptics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age So, you want me to believe we can't work the iron in 2014 when the humankind work it from the 1300 b.c. ? This is umbeliveable haha this is impossible. There's book explaining how to do that now, there's hardware shops have all kind of things to make it possibile. The impossibile thing is, the men in 1300 b.c. for work the iron use days of time and phisics energy to pump air in the furnace and let the heat increase, in the present days we use gas and other combustion materials doing all the dirty work in a quarter of time or less. Impossibile you say ? No I don't know any of this, because I consider this specialized knowledge and you seem to be aware of this as well. Technology has made leaps and bounds over the years, that has realistically dumbed society down. Compare are knowledge to that of people decades ago, they may have more knowledge on how to physically do things, but we have more knowledge of other subjects. We don't need to work iron anymore, machines and specialized people do it for us. It's just not realistic for the common man to just have this knowledge. Could they learn? Possibly. A zombie apocalypse isn't exactly the greatest place to learn this knowledge though. Something I am enjoying the thought more of (and seems to generally be a win/win situation, is this knowledge is specialized, so why not tie it to a profession that would be knowledgeable in this situation. Make it so the profession would know and be able to use this knowledge and create what's being talked about, while excluding it from other professions. Giving unique points to all professions beyond some traits that are not really linked to a person in anyway. Rathlord 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I think I'm done wasting my time talking to you now; you have no concept of reason or logical argument. Ill give him one more attempt at communication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcentriCreation Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I meant it is relatively easy if you have access to the building materials, the knowledge, crucible(s) and fuel. For the sake of disclosure I've never built one, or worked in a foundry, but I've read about what making and using one entails since I was planning on building one (although smaller) for bronze casting. Didn't end up doing it for various reasons. Maybe one day, when I have more space available. And no, I don't find the current wooden building construction system realistic either. Other than the ladles/crucibles, materials would be plentiful in the middle of Hicksville Kentucky not to mention the large scale businesses in the area. G / S size gas cylinders would be enough for multiple melts & everywhere in a town like that.Excluding ideas based on what you consider to be/not be common knowledge is straying close to simulation IMO. Not to mention the KillJoy factor We're talking about an aspect of the game that would give access to many new items/objects to craft & hours of gameplay.... Sorry but worth the time of implementation is MOOT Again.... Mining was addressed earlier. Although surface metals CAN be "mined", the time involved to realistically gather enough of a metal in order to smelt 1 bullion is ridiculous. Exploring an open mine would be a different matter but there are no mines in the area. The fact that there would be plenty of access to ready, refined steel is just gravy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Other than the ladles/crucibles, materials would be plentiful in the middle of Hicksville Kentucky not to mention the large scale businesses in the area. G / S size gas cylinders would be enough for multiple melts & everywhere in a town like that.Excluding ideas based on what you consider to be/not be common knowledge is straying close to simulation IMO. Not to mention the KillJoy factor We're talking about an aspect of the game that would give access to many new items/objects to craft & hours of gameplay.... Sorry but worth the time of implementation is MOOT And how many normal people could work a functional hookup from a gas cylinder to a home made forge without blowing themselves up? Adding new items is completely irrelevant. If that's the best argument you've got, you could also add laser-machinegun toting dinosaurs. It's new things, right? Excluding ideas based on what you consider to be/not be common knowledge is straying close to simulation IMO. Not to mention the KillJoy factor I'm sorry, but excluding ideas based on common knowledge is kinda the entire point of PZ. Again, this is not another arcade-y zombie game. It is meant to follow the struggle of an every day person, culminating with their death. I'd be somewhat okay with Connall's suggestion- to have it be an actual profession- but otherwise it's pure silliness. Fj45 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcentriCreation Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 And how many normal people could work a functional hookup from a gas cylinder to a home made forge without blowing themselves up? They're called flashback arresters.... There's virtually no risk of explosion when dealing with fuel gas. Canisters can rupture & explode through pressure. Lines can leak burning gas. None of those things are related to the hookup though. For the most part, modern gas cylinders are idiot proof. Adding new items is completely irrelevant. If that's the best argument you've got, you could also add laser-machinegun toting dinosaurs. It's new things, right? Completely out of context, YES Laser-Machinegun Toting Dinosaurs would add to the gameplay Knowledge is relative. I could build an impenetrable cage out of structural solid section that would require explosives or a 3 phase plasma cutter to get though (..... or, you know..... a lot of time & effort .....) & yet ballz up a wooden table with drawers. The only realistic way to deal with knowledge would be to require research into specific recipes & that IS verging on the edge being a simulator My point about common knowledge was what YOU consider do to be common knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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