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Mining/Metalworking/Fishing


Xunzul

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Yes, the important thing for the game, as personal opinion is, we can play with a stupid survivor who use only the brute force, and also to play with open-minded character who have the knowledge to create things aganist the apocalypse to survive. Dinamicism, i think the profession tree at the start of the game was introduced for this purpose and expand it or upgrade will let the player to play as he want, not only as a destructor but as a creator too. Must be a player chooice who want to be, a game who decide for players is a game who play with us and not us play with game :)

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Yes, the important thing for the game, in my opinion, would be that we should be able to play both with a simpleminded survivor who only uses brute force to endure and with a open minded survivor who uses knowledge to create and persevere in the face of the zombie apocalypse. Dynamism, I think the profession tree at the start of the game was introduce for that exact purpose and expanding it will let a player experience the game not only as a destructor but as a creator as well. The decision must be given to the player because a game that makes that choice for us will only be a game that plays with us and not let us play the game :).

 

 

 

@Connall don't say tiring :P. That's only the mentality that a defeatist might adopt. You should be encouraged by the fact that you have people with who you could debate points in this manner. Don't give up half way because nothing will result from that. :)

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Here my argument again :)

 

Let me explain a thing...

 

You talk about the common people, so... what i think about it when i compare to project zomboid are..... "Zombies". Let me know if i mistake... who survive in that apocaliptic world ? Smart and intelligent people, or those who are toughness? The zombies are virulents, the zombies move as an army, a man no matter how strong, will die if fight them without mind in open space only with brute force.

 

Here the point,"the survivor", is not common, not anymore in zomboid world, cos the commons are all those who turned in zombies.

 

You people doing the mistake to compare common people to you and you are unawares to what you saying. All of us are common people from the one who know forging, the one who know fishing, the one who know cooking and the one who know how to build a family...

 

If a kid or at last the average of 10-20 aged youngs, compare itself to adults who made his/her life... he just say the commons are his generation not the adult generation... and he does not know what awaits him in the next future life.

 

Im not a special human, i define myself common, and i know how to work plastic, wood, metals, gardening, cooking etc etc... but im not a professional, just an amateur with hobbies, and something i learned was thanks to some jobs i do.

 

You want to live as a common in planet zomboid? Then, that's impossibile, cos you can only die as a common there.

 

Intelligence and strength make jack shit of a difference in the early days. The only thing that changes whether someone dies or survives is luck. 

There are many more stupid people then smart people, odds are there wouldn't be many smart people left.

 

@Fj45

Ah the good old stubborn people that cling to their beliefs and ignorance. If you would take the time to get rid of that stubbornness and read again what I posted you might find meaning in the reason I pointed out what I pointed out in the manner that I did.

I also fail to see how that post might be arrogant because I do not claim anything in it, I just point what would be obvious things. 

 

.......

I'm out. 

 

Ya just can't debate some people....

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There's people who have trust in luck and people who have trust in ourselves... survive in a game is not only for luck otherwise this game will be called slotmachineszomboid... if a skill system was built-in there's a why... or not? Luck and unluck is not all in life and those who wait luck to live their lifes are clocks waiting for the upcoming death... i don't want play as a booring clock, yes, you're out, im sorry for that.

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Ever try forging scrap metal? Didn't think so, because it makes nothing of use. You try taking a bunch if scrap metal and forging a blade (or even some nails) and you make the impurities in the metal worse, not to mention how weak your metal will be. Working metal at too low temperature makes it even weaker beyond that.

As far as whether or not you're a common person in PZ, you can blow hot air out your ass all you want, the devs have stated that's what the game is about.

Note: I'm completely for welding. The materials are more common place, doing it takes nothing but common sense, and you can blind people who don't wear a helmet =D

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Considering there are plans to have some sort of circuit system - i.e. something like Minecraft's Redstone - implemented in the far future, I don't see how something like this can not have a place in PZ in terms of a separate skill that you can improve on.

 

When talking about the "average Joe" I don't think that Joe could build a two-story building that withstands a horde. Average Joe also can't shoot very well.

 

Can someone explain to me why it shouldn't be implemented at all - even as something you'd have to level as part of the crafting skills or - heaven forbid - a profession?

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@nasKo: I think there are players don't like crafting skill in game, but only build a strong character and became Rambo Vs Zombies in game, for me is ok, i don't like it but it's ok, i want only let know to those players, can be another way of play in the game for players who like creativity and crafting, they say is impossibile to build something metal, but for them, all ppl are able to shoot with a bazooka or anytype of firearms.

 

I don't know if someone see the TV series "The Walking Dead" but, in that film where the zombies infest the earth, not only the brute force prevail and various survivors with different specialization as cooking, hunting, medicine, crafting and leadership do their jobs to help each others and survive from the hordes, finding secure place to fortify, where farming and be protected from wheater.

 

In TWD the doctor do the doctor, the chef do the chef, the leader do the leader and the brute strong close-minded die fighting for the own sake or to save others.

 

Personally i don't think im able to explain why the crafting professions shouldn't be implemented... but im sure someone here like to play "only" Rambo Vs Zombies will find an answer.

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Can someone explain to me why it shouldn't be implemented at all - even as something you'd have to level as part of the crafting skills or - heaven forbid - a profession?

 

To be fair I did suggest that, twice.

 

 So maybe on top of a profession, maybe we could have some sort of hobby trait that endows people with this knowledge.

 

 

 

If not occupation based, it would be great if PZ introduced a sort of hobby choice, allowing you an expanded knowledge in a certain field beyond your proffesion. Would allow for an interesting mix and match dynamic.

 

 

 

At this point I don't even think the discussion is about it being in the game, but rather what people know as common knowledge.

 

 

@nasKo:I think there are players don't like crafting skill in game, but only build a strong character and became Rambo Vs Zombies in game, for me is ok, i don't like it but it's ok, i want only let know to those players, can be another way of play in the game for players who like creativity and crafting, they say is impossibile to build something metal, but for them, all ppl are able to shoot with a bazooka or anytype of firearms.

 

I don't know if someone see the TV series "The Walking Dead" but, in that film where the zombies infest the earth, not only the brute force prevail and various survivors with different specialization as cooking, hunting, medicine, crafting and leadership do their jobs to help each others and survive from the hordes, finding secure place to fortify, where farming and be protected from wheater.

 

In TWD the doctor do the doctor, the chef do the chef, the leader do the leader and the brute strong close-minded die fighting for the own sake or to save others.

 

Personally i don't think im able to explain why the crafting professions shouldn't be implemented... but im sure someone here like to play Rambo Vs Zombies will find an answer.

 

*sigh*

 

I'm done. No-one in the course of this thread has said anything along those lines. No we don't thing everybody shoots excellently with all types of firearms. No we don't have a dislike towards crafting. The fact you refer to the other side of the debate as "Rambo Vs Zombies" is just... argh. Whatever. Where you are extrapolating this from any of our posts is beyond me and is just insulting.

 

I have no problem with this being implemented into the game, as long as it was tied someway into a profession/hobby/skill you need to learn and isn't just day one something you know.

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As far as I could tell, the debates are around:

 

1) Probablilty that a survivor in PZ would have the knowledge to build/work a furnace or metalworking

2) Whether the above would actually be feasible in an apocalypse

3) Whether anything you could produce anything of use

 

1) I haven't done any surveys or anything - but I imagine that the frequency of this skill is low. It also doesn't improve the chance of surviving, at least at the beginning, so won't be naturally selected. The likelihood is pretty low that anyone would know how to set up anything up. On the other hand, the average Joe wouldn't be able to build a two storey house, so there's nothing stopping it being a slow progressing skill like carpenty.

 

2) No idea about this. However, you could probably find the setup in the town somewhere, like a professional shop, and work that. If you need more than one person, you could require that NPCs work it with you.

 

3) Ok this comes to the last point. My initial thought it would utterly pointless to go to the effort of building something that you could scavenge... then I looked up some books, of which there are tonnes, (for example), and realised you could make some really useful things that are limited in the game (nails, hinges, frames, weapons etc.) with a little practice.

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For survive you need, food and water, for live a life you need to follow your own will to be a complete person, nobody except animals can live with water and food only the entire existence, so, after survive the survivor must think about his/her life, a secure place to find and fortify, commodities and something to do will give a sense to go ahead, a home to return will enhance the life style and the hope of a better world and better place to stay and build that give the will to go on. I think about long term of surviving not short... thinking short with project zomboid will make the game itself short and boring after few days of playing. Would be interesting to have science and crafting skill to learn and improve that take "real" weeks and months to max and more building/crafting option will become aviable, as with survey skill that make aviable with the time the use of more survey object as metal detector or metal scraps findings. Project zomboid have a great potential i hope it will be as i imagine and make me play it alot of time without boring.

 

Very compliment to the indie stone team to have made it and thanks for reading our arguments and take it in consideration.

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Nasko, forging/casting metal and setting up traps and circuitry are VERY different. Any smith will tell you that black smithing is a lost art in the States (I've had long talks with them about it, there's a group I keep up with called Sabersmith). However, wiring is a common profession and requires more common materials, not to mention less dangerous trial and error.

If there was some crazy pressing need for this, I could understand it- but there's not, not even close.

Nails can be substituted for easily (as I listed in the other thread).

Forging a weapon would get you a silly, impractical, unrealistic weapon that's weaker than what you can find.

If you have a piece of iron or steel you want to be a blade, you're actually better of cutting it with a blowtorch than trying to forge it- you'll get a stronger, harder weapon that way.

It comes down to three massive, indisputable points:

1) It's unrealistic. I've already spoken as to why and none if my points have been debunked.

2) it would require a good amount of dev time for new items, new systems, and new skills.

3) The least forgive able at all is that there's nothing you can make with a home made forge that wouldn't be better made with a blowtorch and the same metal, or an alternative solution.

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I think the whole idea of Common Knowledge is what really needs to be addressed.  My two cents....

 

Me:  At 43, I am an ex-army police soldier, ex-cop and currently an IT professional.  At 27 (I believe the age stamp currently in the game) I was a professional soldier. Army MP, leading a fire team and acting as a patrol supervisor in law and order operations.  I was an expert with personal and crew served weapons.  I was also an EMT-Basic, CPR Instructor Trainer and PADI Advanced Diver.  I spent my summers at a family farm and knew how to work my way around a kitchen (though no chef by any means).  I had, and still possess, the can do attitude that barriers are meant to be overcome... not pondered, debated or delegated to a sub-committee.

 

Best Friend #1: Graduated from college with a Degree in English and was working in customer service in an IT capacity by 27.  He did not, and still does not, believe in possessing a firearm.  While an avid reader, he prefers to hire a contractor to do just about any job.  He believes that Dinty Moore Pot Roast and Instant Mashed Potatoes is a feast.  If he runs into an barrier, he looks for and obvious way around or just passes it by (not meant for me, nothing to see, move along).  Nothing has really changed from him from then to now.

 

Best Friend #2: Did not get a college degree but came from a deaf family with a can do attitude.  Very athletic, with the ability to speak Spanish, English and Sign Language.  He could also tear down a car and put it back together before he left High School.  He could cook fantastic "Tex-Mex" food and knew how to grow the necessities in his family garden.  He began working as an apprentice machinist at a bottling company and made he way up to machinist proper with management training by 27.  He will try to overcome an barrier and if he believes it to be ethnically or physical impairment motivated, will chase after it like a dog on a bone.  Other things, meh... he does not waste his time.

 

We all consider ourselves to be average Joes with homes, families, kids and car payments.  However, we all have vastly different skill sets.  I do not believe the current system of professions really points to these... at all.  Well, maybe BF #2.  Right now, a larger skill set is needed with additional professional traits.  Players "should" then be awarded a set number of Skill Points at the start of the game (say 2 or 3).  They could then put those in the proper skill at character creation.  We also need to be able to mark a skill or two as favorites (maybe chosen by profession or hobby).  Skills in these categories have a reduced cost.  Skills you start out with that are not favorites have a standard cost.  Skills you do not possess at the beginning of the game and are not favorites have an increased cost to learn.

 

Right now, everyone starting out at zero does not point to average.  It points to zero.  The Professions hint at the possibilities, but they seem more like boons than anything else.  Maybe as additional skill sets come into play (electronics, mechanics, metal working, basket weaving, etc) this could be fleshed out.  Considering this is Alpha, I eagerly await the possibilities of the devs vision coming to reality, because it is their vision we are enjoying.

 

Happy New Years!!

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Ever try forging scrap metal? Didn't think so, because it makes nothing of use. You try taking a bunch if scrap metal and forging a blade (or even some nails) and you make the impurities in the metal worse, not to mention how weak your metal will be. Working metal at too low temperature makes it even weaker beyond that.

As far as whether or not you're a common person in PZ, you can blow hot air out your ass all you want, the devs have stated that's what the game is about.

Note: I'm completely for welding. The materials are more common place, doing it takes nothing but common sense, and you can blind people who don't wear a helmet =D

 

I would be more supportive of welding over smithing, certainly. It's absolutely more realistic and common, which makes perfect sense for this game setting; although it's still a bit of a specialist trade.

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I think the whole idea of Common Knowledge is what really needs to be addressed.  My two cents....

 

Me:  At 43, I am an ex-army police soldier, ex-cop and currently an IT professional.  At 27 (I believe the age stamp currently in the game) I was a professional soldier. Army MP, leading a fire team and acting as a patrol supervisor in law and order operations.  I was an expert with personal and crew served weapons.  I was also an EMT-Basic, CPR Instructor Trainer and PADI Advanced Diver.  I spent my summers at a family farm and knew how to work my way around a kitchen (though no chef by any means).  I had, and still possess, the can do attitude that barriers are meant to be overcome... not pondered, debated or delegated to a sub-committee.

 

Best Friend #1: Graduated from college with a Degree in English and was working in customer service in an IT capacity by 27.  He did not, and still does not, believe in possessing a firearm.  While an avid reader, he prefers to hire a contractor to do just about any job.  He believes that Dinty Moore Pot Roast and Instant Mashed Potatoes is a feast.  If he runs into an barrier, he looks for and obvious way around or just passes it by (not meant for me, nothing to see, move along).  Nothing has really changed from him from then to now.

 

Best Friend #2: Did not get a college degree but came from a deaf family with a can do attitude.  Very athletic, with the ability to speak Spanish, English and Sign Language.  He could also tear down a car and put it back together before he left High School.  He could cook fantastic "Tex-Mex" food and knew how to grow the necessities in his family garden.  He began working as an apprentice machinist at a bottling company and made he way up to machinist proper with management training by 27.  He will try to overcome an barrier and if he believes it to be ethnically or physical impairment motivated, will chase after it like a dog on a bone.  Other things, meh... he does not waste his time.

 

We all consider ourselves to be average Joes with homes, families, kids and car payments.  However, we all have vastly different skill sets.  I do not believe the current system of professions really points to these... at all.  Well, maybe BF #2.  Right now, a larger skill set is needed with additional professional traits.  Players "should" then be awarded a set number of Skill Points at the start of the game (say 2 or 3).  They could then put those in the proper skill at character creation.  We also need to be able to mark a skill or two as favorites (maybe chosen by profession or hobby).  Skills in these categories have a reduced cost.  Skills you start out with that are not favorites have a standard cost.  Skills you do not possess at the beginning of the game and are not favorites have an increased cost to learn.

 

Right now, everyone starting out at zero does not point to average.  It points to zero.  The Professions hint at the possibilities, but they seem more like boons than anything else.  Maybe as additional skill sets come into play (electronics, mechanics, metal working, basket weaving, etc) this could be fleshed out.  Considering this is Alpha, I eagerly await the possibilities of the devs vision coming to reality, because it is their vision we are enjoying.

 

Happy New Years!!

 

This statement makes a lot of sense. You have made a very intelligent and unbiased observation, and provided a system idea that would provide realistic balance and gameplay. Well done. Not sure if it fits their vision, but I think you hit the mark on the head.

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AmericanSteel hits on a good point. I'm not sure wether this has been brought up in public much, but they have talked about doing something akin to a "hobby" thing similar to traits. What they said was almost exactly the same as what you did =D

The only caveat is, they obviously can't cover every possible profession or hobby, so things that represent less than a tenth of a percent of the population (such as smithing) should still not be included.

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Charliefoxtrot of a discussion aside, I'd really like to make a brick and charcol/coal barbie in PZ.

It's the little touches that make the safehouse, no? :P

 

Roast 'em zombies legs up, bit of BBQ sauce and dash of nutmeg, you in for some good eatin' boy. Yum, yum. Tastes might fine.

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How many people know how to build a table with draws?

 

Your Fabricating skill would start off with rigging scrap steel to your barricades & as the skill progresses you unlock more complex builds like furnaces.... Just like carpentry works atm

dude im 16 i can easily build a table i actually did and a chair too not that hard :l its really easy

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I totally agree with American Steel.

 

Rathlord im sorry but i disagree you in all u've said.

 

What is the difference about hobby, passions and the lack of these traits ? The one with passion make a dream come true, as for the indie stone with this game. Who lack this traits will never make something good in their lifes.

 

Im a man and a player who have passions in real life, and it's a real thing for me, when i play a game i want my creativity being free and have fun, otherwise i prefer do the zombie character and go find survivors to kill.

 

As American Steel said, there are people with certain aptitudes, and game must be for all players not only for kids who don't know how to work the iron or how tear down a car and put it back together... so, when you start a game and you think the game is more fun and more realistic run around as Rambo, you'll choose "Profession Rambo", or if u like a game where your character is an useless man you choose "Profession Drunkard".... and now tell me why i can't choose a profession as engeneering, or medic, or....etc etc... real professions! Not unrealistic profession but REAL as i am! Or you want tell me im not real and realistic? Then who are writing this topic?

 

I repeat, i agree 100% with those who talk about what is possibile to learn (generic) and not those who talk about what is impossibile for them(won't learn and dislikes), we're not all the same, what is unrealistic and impossible for you is another argument, me and others don't talk about it.

 

Here the proof:

 

 

dude im 16 i can easily build a table i actually did and a chair too not that hard :l its really easy

 

 And he's not Spiderman, i think he's a common guy as all of us.

 

Read this and find how things can be possibile:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_of_Columbus

 

 

Columbus was dining with many spanish nobles when one of them said: 'Sir Christopher, even if your lordship had not discovered the Indies, there would have been, here in Spain which is a country abundant with great men knowledgeable in cosmography and literature, one who would have started a similar adventure with the same result.' Columbus did not respond to these words but asked for a whole egg to be brought to him. He placed it on the table and said: 'My lords, I will lay a wager with any of you that you are unable to make this egg stand on its end like I will do without any kind of help or aid.' They all tried without success and when the egg returned to Columbus, he tapped it gently on the table breaking it slightly and, with this, the egg stood on its end. All those present were confounded and understood what he meant: that once the feat has been done, anyone knows how to do it.

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As American Steel said, there are people with certain aptitudes, and game must be for all players not only for kids who don't know how to work the iron or how tear down a car and put it back together... so, when you start a game and you think the game is more fun and more realistic run around as Rambo, you'll choose "Profession Rambo",

 

blackadder_headdesk.gif

 

Why do you keep bringing up this whole Rambo thing? No-one in this thread thinks that's a good idea, and just because we disagree with this metal work idea doesn't mean we're all Rambo's who run around gunning and what not. No-one is saying that's more fun and realistic. You keep pulling this point out of thin air!

 

 

 

I totally agree with American Steel.

 

Rathlord im sorry but i disagree you in all u said.

 

What is the difference about hobby, passions and the lack of these traits ? The one with passion make a dream come true, as for the indie stone with this game. Who lack this traits will never make something good in their lifes.

 

Im a man and a player who have passions in real life, and it's a real thing for me, when i play a game i want my creativity being free and have fun, otherwise i prefer do the zombie character and go find survivors to kill.

 

As American Steel said, there are people with certain aptitudes, and game must be for all players not only for kids who don't know how to work the iron or how tear down a car and put it back together... so, when you start a game and you think the game is more fun and more realistic run around as Rambo, you'll choose "Profession Rambo", or if u like a game where your character is an useless man you choose "Profession Drunkard".... and now tell me why i can't choose a profession as engeneering, or medic, or....etc etc... real professions! Not unrealistic profession but REAL as i am! Or you want tell me im not real and realistic? Then who are writing this topic?

 

This answer and a few others are very straw man esque in their nature. We're not saying you can't choose certain professions, we're not restricting you from choosing what you want (from what's available of course) No-one says the profession isn't realistic, no-one is saying your unrealistic or whatever. We're just talking about the viability of such a path in this scenario and would it be possible to learn this in an apocalypse where a lot of people may not have been privy to this knowledge. We're also discussing whether it's worth implementing such a thing.

 

Your post is combating an argument that no one has put forth. Hence it's a bit of a straw man argument.

 

 

As American Steel said, there are people with certain aptitudes, and game must be for all players not only for kids who don't know how to work the iron or how tear down a car and put it back together...

 

 

I appreciate the fact you equate everybody who doesn't have such knowledge (such as myself) to kids and Rambos.

 

 

 

 

dude im 16 i can easily build a table i actually did and a chair too not that hard :l its really easy

 

 And he's not Spiderman, i think he's a common guy as all of us.

 

 I don't know if this works in your favour quite as well as you think, he's just saying it's not hard to make a chair or table. Not that he is able to metal working.

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dude im 16 i can easily build a table i actually did and a chair too not that hard :l its really easy

 

 And he's not Spiderman, i think he's a common guy as all of us.

 

 I don't know if this works in your favor quite as well as you think, he's just saying it's not hard to make a chair or table. Not that he is able to metal working.

 

^That, It's hard to do metal working but you don't really need to know that much to make stuff out of wood.

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Im only defending my argument with all i have as i can from those who don't see the need. You'd just explain wich prospective you have in an ipotetical planet zomboid as i do. But there's a difference from me and you, i said how the game can become more fun (as my opionion) with building/crafting professions upgraded(cos alredy built in the game) with metalworks and more building options. For the compare people opinion, for me is an insult that the common people for someone is the ignorants without istructions. I learn metal working, mechanic, wood working and electronics at highschool, chemic too!!! At school!!! And im amazed that someone here think the common people stop studing at elementary school.... or all are gone only at literature or classic study only... Im amazed of your opinion that explain about survivor can't be a university or highschool professor, a simple hardware shop keeper, a mechanic, an engeneer... but only the blacksheep in the village... this disgusting me... and in this disgut i try to keep me calm and try to reply to defend my argument, but is very hard cos i don't have the patience to face the ignorance sometime but... is a real thing and i have to apologize with you all for my manners. I hope only to be of help for developers, project zomboid and who think as me about creativity and crafting.

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AmericanSteel hits on a good point. I'm not sure wether this has been brought up in public much, but they have talked about doing something akin to a "hobby" thing similar to traits. What they said was almost exactly the same as what you did =D

The only caveat is, they obviously can't cover every possible profession or hobby, so things that represent less than a tenth of a percent of the population (such as smithing) should still not be included.

 

What is the perspecitve of "a tenth of a percent of the population"?  City, County or State?  If the game area has a population of 5000 people, that means if there are less than 5 of them then they would not be included.  I Googled the West Point, KY police department.  They have 4 officers!  No joke.  Four.  No police station in Muldraugh.

 

http://www.westpointky.org/policedept.shtml

 

Considering Muldraugh is 35 miles from Louisville, it would not be out of the realm of possibility that some people in West Point and Muldraugh commute to Louisville for work (I commute 25 miles one way right now).  So if we are going to call Louisville into the picture, we just bumped the population to 250,000 (not including the surrounding communities).  I then Wikied the Lousiville Metro Police Dept jurisdiction, which cover 399 sq miles and a population of 709,000 people!!!

 

That means there has to be at least 709 people working that job to be included.  Cops, out.  Firemen, out. Two professions are already in the game that break the less than tenth of a percent marker and should not be included rule.  A lot of jobs are going to fall to the wayside.  That makes it subjective, not a rule.  If it is subjective, then it should be about usability.  There might be less than 709 acutal mechanics by job skill set, but who knows the hobbiests.  While there may be a few of them and making a contribution to the commnity, their low numbers cut them from the pool.  Now look at hunters and fishermen, huge amount.  From rural folk to those who prefer game meat to store bought.  How many of them load their own shells?  How many use black powder (more than you would think, so they can hit multiple hunting seasons)?  How many bow hunt?  Line fishermen?  Nets?  Telephone/Blasting (lol)?!?  How about the amount of people involving in making some form of white lightening, shine or stump water for purely personal consumtion?  Because I bet you have more than 1000 people area doing it!!!!  :)

 

Now how many of these 709,000 people play at being a smith?  No clue.  I would assume not much, but what if they had a metal working skill set to start with.  Smithing might not be to far from the realm of possibility.  Lets not even entertain the skill book idea, because then anything is really possible (cold fusion anyone?!) :P

 

I would be looking at the possibilities of what could realistically be included to further the game, instead of looking for reasons to exclude content.  Because in a game, content is king!

 

Note: It took me well over an hour to post this.  I deleted a lot and edited quite a bit.  So, this does not take ANYTHING into account between Rathlords post and mine.  I was shooting for a thinking post, not a shoot from thte hip post, the later is more my norm ;)

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American Steel, I meant total U.S. population, and that was just a rough number. The number of smiths (and I'm not talking factory workers who press a button for hours on end) is probably less than a hundredth of a percent, if that. Just think how many professions come before it. Sure, if the devs want to make the other hundreds of thousands of professions that are more common than smithing, I'd be all for it.

 

Xunzul, you can defend your idea all you want; but you're using insults, generalizations, broken analogies, and categorical fallacies to defend it. That makes you wrong, even if there are legitimate arguments for smithing, you present none of them.

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