Sheetropes fail (falling)

[MyTJ]

I've wondered recently why zombies cant climb sheetropes and living human can (players, soon to be NPC).  Unless it's only temporary, i've put it under ''zombies lack the fine motor skill to do it''.

 

Then it got me thinking that it is a somewhat difficult task in real life that my characters seems to have no problem with (fast climbing) and succeed at it consistently.

 

I would suggest a slight to moderate fail chance when using sheetropes.  It would decrease whith the nimble skill, but increase somewhat dramatically with exhaustion and heavy load.

 

The height of the fall could be variable, affecting the damage output.

 

I beleive it would stimulate a diversity of strategy while building player bases.

 

-|- Edit 11-03-2015 -|-

 

I agree with comments that a random chance of falling and injury, if improperly implemented, could ruin the game.  That is why i feel i must give additionnal details of what i had in mind.

 

First, when i said it would decrease with nimble skill, what i had in mind was that at rank 3 or so, without any other adverse factor, climbing should be automatic or near enough.  At rank 1-2 there could be a slight chance, thus encouraging players to level-up the skill before relying solely on sheet-ropes for their bases.  Rank 4-5 would allow safe climbing even with some adverse factors.

 

Second, the list of factors (adverse and positive) was and still is incomplete.  That is why the ongoing discussion is appreciated.  While reading comments, i though of other way to positively affect success chance.  For exemple, having a knoted sheet-ropes would help.  Replacing sheet-ropes with sheet-ropes ladder could be an idea too.

 

On the subject of sheet-ropes breakage, doubling it could help.

[Anderson Jaeger]

To be honest the sheetrope still is bugged to use actually. Need to fix that first.

[Demonic_Kat]

I feel like at my current level of fitness I may only be able to look at a sheet rope. To climb it would be awful. To climb it with something chasing me would probably result in death.

[Onkeen]

Thats a really good idea !

 

Everything, from different types of damages that could be taken to the heavyload & exhaustion part.

 

I would love falling from my sheet rope at a critic moment and they "damn if I hd put a a door instead" !

 

@Demonic_Kat I think the fitness shape is already an in-game requirement to use "climb" on a sheet rope (it's "3" or at least have a "stout" character)

[Jack Bower]

Zombies can bite you while you climb sheetrope now.

[Onkeen]

Zombies can bite you while you climb sheetrope now.

 

 

[CaptKaspar]

I hate any idea that randomly penalizes a player for performing a routine action.

 

Just like in real life, injuries and accidents are preventable with enough care and caution.

 

However, I would not be against the sheet rope breaking if we were over-burdened. Or if we slipped because we tried climbing a wet rope in the rain. Situations where a player should choose whether or not its worth the risk because the situation is compromised.

 

If we want to go the random accidents route, we should probably also randomly fall down stairs breaking bones and get twisted ankles from walking or running. Things should randomly fall out of cupboards and hit us in the head causing concussions, memory loss and confusion, or we should randomly cut ourselves using kitchen knives. Should also get random burns from cooking, back injuries from tilling the fields, and cut off a few fingers while sawing logs. All of our fingers should be smashed from using hammers and my shoulder should get dislocated every-time I miss swing on a Zombie with my baseball bat.

 

...all of those above ideas are realistic, but ridiculous to put into the game. It would lead to way too much complaining and grieving.

 

If you character is healthy, not over-burdened, not stressed out or fatigued, random bad shit shouldn't just happen for the sake of gameplay and me not rage quitting the game!

[CaptKaspar]

I feel like at my current level of fitness I may only be able to look at a sheet rope. To climb it would be awful. To climb it with something chasing me would probably result in death.

 

adrenaline is a hell of a drug

[MyTJ]

I hate any idea that randomly penalizes a player for performing a routine action.

 

Just like in real life, injuries and accidents are preventable with enough care and caution.

 

However, I would not be against the sheet rope breaking if we were over-burdened. Or if we slipped because we tried climbing a wet rope in the rain. Situations where a player should choose whether or not its worth the risk because the situation is compromised.

 

If we want to go the random accidents route, we should probably also randomly fall down stairs breaking bones and get twisted ankles from walking or running. Things should randomly fall out of cupboards and hit us in the head causing concussions, memory loss and confusion, or we should randomly cut ourselves using kitchen knives. Should also get random burns from cooking, back injuries from tilling the fields, and cut off a few fingers while sawing logs. All of our fingers should be smashed from using hammers and my shoulder should get dislocated every-time I miss swing on a Zombie with my baseball bat.

 

...all of those above ideas are realistic, but ridiculous to put into the game. It would lead to way too much complaining and grieving.

 

If you character is healthy, not over-burdened, not stressed out or fatigued, random bad shit shouldn't just happen for the sake of gameplay and me not rage quitting the game!

 

The breaking and slipping are good ideas.  Your other exemples are somewhat less difficult to accomplish then climbing a rope.

 

Also, an alternative to falling would be to slide back down on failure.

[CaptKaspar]

 

Also, an alternative to falling would be to slide back down on failure.

 

 

I like this idea!

[Jatta Pake]

Sheet ropes always struck me as something done in haste to escape a burning building or zombie horde on an upper level. Not something to be used as a regular means of egress/ingress.

I'd prefer sheet ropes be only available for descent. For regular vertical movement a ladder should be available. But zombies should be able to climb ladders.

Floating bases are far too secure right now. They need to be nerfed. If a player can climb something, so should a zombie.

[hrot]

I'm totally agree with CaptKaspar. Adding such a randomness to game will be very bad move, making it very annoying for players.

 

Edit:

 

Zombies can't climb ropes, it will be unlogical and probably in coflict with lore game is based of. Zombies can't perform such complicated moves. Also you can't look at that game and say:"that's too op, that's too strong", things should be realistic(and that's the goal of devs i think) and base where only entrance is through rope is just  good idea not too op base and dosen't need nerfs also zombies can just destroy walls when in groups so no base is too secure ever.

[Jatta Pake]

Edit:

Zombies can't climb ropes, it will be unlogical and probably in coflict with lore game is based of. Zombies can't perform such complicated moves. Also you can't look at that game and say:"that's too op, that's too strong", things should be realistic(and that's the goal of devs i think) and base where only entrance is through rope is just good idea not too op base and dosen't need nerfs also zombies can just destroy walls when in groups so no base is too secure ever.

I respectfuly disagree. You would be lucky to find 1 out of 10 average Americans who could climb a rope to a second story floor, much less a makeshift sheet rope. Climbing down without falling would be hard enough for most people.

I also disagree that zombies would be less capable of climbing. Toddlers learn to hoist themselves up before walking. If the zombie brain was the reduction of a human brain to a more base and animalistic nature, the zombie would lose the ability to walk before losing climbing.

Lastly, floating bases are immune to zombies. There are no accessible walls the zombies can reach to smash. In my own Jatta-verse, I don't build floating bases because I consider them an exploit. I also don't use sheet ropes to go up.

And I believe all fans should feel welcome to opine on the nature of items needing buffs and nerfs. As well as debate the merits.

If you can make a good argument for non-climbing zombies and floating bases, I will consider it. I may even change my mind!

[hrot]

Well i thought by floating base you mean base without doors etc. only ropes (also you could explain what is this because i don't know exactly what you mean) and no disrespect for americans but normal person without being overweight and with normal physical activity is capable of climbing ropes easily also climbing down is easier than climbing up obviously.

Zombie's brain is not reduced to animal level nor to toddlers level. Animals are clever, they have very good memory and etc. Zombies have 1 instinct - eat humans and they can't perform so simple actions like opening a door also they can't learn anything and they have very bad short memory.

Furthermore their bodies are rotted so even when they could climb ropes they would fall apart if they tried so zombies climbing ropes is unlogical and stupid idea.

And this game is based on reality and this is goal of devs also and like in real world there are things better that others and also very good things  so nerfing something only because it's too strong is stupid and unlogical.

[Jatta Pake]

By "floating base" I mean a player built structure that floats in the air magically without a ground level or a possibility of being collapsed. Players will construct these with sheet ropes to climb up and down for access. When players are inside, they are completely immune to the dangers of zombies.

 

I think our disagreement boils down to this: should players have a safe technique for avoiding dangers of the zombie apocalypse? You believe, yes, if the technique is based in reality. You argue that a technique being overpowered is moot if the technique is available in reality (like climbing ropes).

 

The problem with your argument is 1) it assumes zombies are on a level playing field with players and 2) reality is accurately modeled in game. It isn't. For example, in reality, a horde of zombies could knock out the support structures of a building that a player is using to hide inside. The building would collapse and the player would die. This isn't currently an option in PZ.

 

I do not believe players should have a safe technique for avoiding zombie dangers. Zombies are the principle danger of the game. Whatever back story or lore used to explain the zombies should maintain the crushing threat of being eaten by zombies. If a zombie can walk, crawl, climb fences, climb through windows, beat down doors and walls with their bare hands - why is it unrealistic that they could climb a rope? If the average person can do it, why can't zombies? Animals aren't clever enough to open a door, but plenty of animals can climb and some can climb ropes. And if all a zombie can do is think about eating, how do you explain zombies walking, staggering, fast walking, climbing fences, climbing through windows, crawling and going up stairs? Why would a rotting body not fall apart doing all of these things but fall apart when climbing? Zombie bodies seem durable, you can even shoot them with a gun many times without them just completely falling apart.

 

I agree with you on many aspects. But the zombie danger shouldn't be eliminated by something as simple as climbing a makeshift rope.

[hrot]

Well of course floated base is basicaly exploit and will be removed in future builds.

I said that even best most secure base can be destroyed by zombies (of course not floating base) but it destroyed just by zombies pushing walls with their bodies they don't jump, fly, dismantle your walls with hammer, they can't do such a things. They barely can climb through windows and fences and that is all they can do. Their motility is at very low level, they can perform most basic stuff which shouldn't include climbing up fences. In every movie about zombie i watched there was no climbing ropes zombies. It would look just stupid and unlogical. Climbing ropes require good coordination of movements and that's not something that zombies are good at.

[MyTJ]

I respectfuly disagree. You would be lucky to find 1 out of 10 average Americans who could climb a rope to a second story floor, much less a makeshift sheet rope. Climbing down without falling would be hard enough for most people.

I also disagree that zombies would be less capable of climbing. Toddlers learn to hoist themselves up before walking. If the zombie brain was the reduction of a human brain to a more base and animalistic nature, the zombie would lose the ability to walk before losing climbing.

(...)

If you can make a good argument for non-climbing zombies (...), I will consider it. I may even change my mind!

 

 

Firt of all, thanks for the ongoing discussion .

 

It goes without saying that I agree with your first statement.

 

As for the second, i was stating initialy that one of the reason why zombies can't climb ropes is the lack of fine motor skill.  I think there could be to causes : (1) rigor mortis and (2) degradation of their nervous system (i.e. decaying synapses and or neurons transmitting partially and intermitently nervous impulses). Zombies are generally portreyed (non-voodoo variety) as slow and somewhat quirky in their mouvement, as it is refflected in the proper zombies setting.  If we agree on the fact that it is difficult for humans who are more supple and agile then zombies, then it should be impossible to near impossible for zombies, while simpler actions like hoisting themselves through a window or over a fence could remain possible (but slower then humans).

[CaptKaspar]

I find myself agreeing with parts of both camps on this discussion.

 

First, I do not think zombies should be able to climb a rope. It takes a level of correlation that I personally think they just wouldn't have. I like to imagine their ability to climb stairs, climb through windows, hop fences, etc is more of a perseverance drive than a coordinated action. I imagine them flopping over fences and out windows, stumbling up stairs, etc. There just isn't the animations in game to show it. At least thats how I imagine it. Climbing a rope would take a coordinated movement and a level of correlation/understanding on the zombie that this specific movement is necessary to climb a rope. They can't just keep plowing ahead at it and get anywhere like they could with stairs or hopping/flopping over a fence.

 

Second, I do not think players should have any sort of safe haven in the game. They should have to take measures to enhance their safety, but never be able to permanently achieve it. Currently a 'floating' base is completely safe. However, there are two things they could do to remove this level of safety.

1. Require that all structures have supports. Zombies are able to destroy these supports. This would cause the structure to collapse, and also pin/kill the majority of zombies/players under it.
2. Have a zombie horde aggro around the floating base and not leave until the player leaves. Imagine a sea of zombies under your floating base and you have absolutely no avenue for escape through the horde! I hope you have enough rain barrels, traps, and crops up there to sustain you forever. Because they can wait, you can't

[Jatta Pake]

I'd boil my argument down to this: Players currently have a superpower that zombies don't have - the ability to go up where zombies can't. Going down isn't an issue because both players and zombies can fall.  To reduce or eliminate this "up" superpower, you have a number of choices (all of which I am in agreement with as a potential solution):

 

1. Reduce or eliminate the player's ability to go up where zombies can't - nerf players going up sheet ropes OR buff zombies to be able to climb them.

 

2. Give the zombies a superpower that let's them bring players back "down". This would be something like knocking out building supports.

 

3. Make going "up" a trade-off for the player. For example, reduce/eliminate rooftop gardens and rain collectors. Or add in some other danger of farming and getting water on the roof like bad weather. You could also require that rooftop gardens and rain collectors require a lot more materials and skill to make. Think about it, one leak in your rain barrel and your entire roof could collapse from water damage. There is a reason hot water heaters are generally not placed on upper levels of structures.

 

4. Make going "up" risky for the player. This would be the original post idea of risking a fall when climbing a sheet rope.

 

I think Number 1 is the simplest to implement. Number 2 may not be possible with the game engine. Number 3 requires a lot more work to implement and balance. Number 4 adds a level of randomness that could seriously annoy many players.

 

There is a Number 5 option that I do not endorse but is fun to consider anyway. I call it the Dalek option:

 

5. Give zombies an alternative but equivalent means of going up. In Dr. Who, story writers quickly figured out that the fearsome Daleks had a silly weakness. Because they moved on rolling wheels, they couldn't maintain their iconic size and shape while also climbing stairs. So the writer's solution was to give Daleks the ability to levitate or hover. This way they could float up stairs and pursue Dr. Who. I don't think you need to give zombies the power to fly, but you could allow certain zombies the ability to scale structures. For example, a zombie missing it's lower torso may be able to pull itself up a wall covered in overgrowth or one that has been unevenly constructed.

 

Lastly, there is the Number 6 option that tends to be fall back answer for most players give that will solve this issue. This may be the final solution to the problem, but I have reservations about it.

 

6. NPCs. The NPCs will have the same superpower to go "up" that players have, so they will to pose a threat that zombies cannot. The problem I have with the NPCs answer is that I see them as being less of a pure threat and more of a random element. Some NPCs will be good. Some will be bad. But at the end of the day, this is a zombie game. Zombies are the threat. A player going up one z-level shouldn't be able to eliminate this threat. Players should never feel 100% safe from zombies. They can achieve temporary respite, but never be truly safe.

[CaptKaspar]

I'd boil my argument down to this: Players currently have a superpower that zombies don't have - the ability to go up where zombies can't. Going down isn't an issue because both players and zombies can fall.  To reduce or eliminate this "up" superpower, you have a number of choices (all of which I am in agreement with as a potential solution):

 

1. Reduce or eliminate the player's ability to go up where zombies can't - nerf players going up sheet ropes OR buff zombies to be able to climb them.

 

2. Give the zombies a superpower that let's them bring players back "down". This would be something like knocking out building supports.

 

3. Make going "up" a trade-off for the player. For example, reduce/eliminate rooftop gardens and rain collectors. Or add in some other danger of farming and getting water on the roof like bad weather. You could also require that rooftop gardens and rain collectors require a lot more materials and skill to make. Think about it, one leak in your rain barrel and your entire roof could collapse from water damage. There is a reason hot water heaters are generally not placed on upper levels of structures.

 

4. Make going "up" risky for the player. This would be the original post idea of risking a fall when climbing a sheet rope.

 

I think Number 1 is the simplest to implement. Number 2 may not be possible with the game engine. Number 3 requires a lot more work to implement and balance. Number 4 adds a level of randomness that could seriously annoy many players.

 

There is a Number 5 option that I do not endorse but is fun to consider anyway. I call it the Dalek option:

 

5. Give zombies an alternative but equivalent means of going up. In Dr. Who, story writers quickly figured out that the fearsome Daleks had a silly weakness. Because they moved on rolling wheels, they couldn't maintain their iconic size and shape while also climbing stairs. So the writer's solution was to give Daleks the ability to levitate or hover. This way they could float up stairs and pursue Dr. Who. I don't think you need to give zombies the power to fly, but you could allow certain zombies the ability to scale structures. For example, a zombie missing it's lower torso may be able to pull itself up a wall covered in overgrowth or one that has been unevenly constructed.

 

Lastly, there is the Number 6 option that tends to be fall back answer for most players give that will solve this issue. This may be the final solution to the problem, but I have reservations about it.

 

6. NPCs. The NPCs will have the same superpower to go "up" that players have, so they will to pose a threat that zombies cannot. The problem I have with the NPCs answer is that I see them as being less of a pure threat and more of a random element. Some NPCs will be good. Some will be bad. But at the end of the day, this is a zombie game. Zombies are the threat. A player going up one z-level shouldn't be able to eliminate this threat. Players should never feel 100% safe from zombies. They can achieve temporary respite, but never be truly safe.

 

In my opinion:

1. It doesn't fit the zombie lore (that I have accepted) that zombies could climb a rope. If they could climb a rope, they could also probably climb chain link fences as well. Humans can climb ropes though, especially when there is a wall to place their feet against. If its just dangling without a wall, then I believe the average Joe could do it if they weren't over-burdened. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug. I also think it would be cool if the game incorporated some sort of fitness system. Where if your character has been active (chopping wood, sprinting, carrying supplies, fighting zombies) then they would be in better shape than characters who stay indoors, cooking and reading. Perhaps have a base fitness level required to climb a sheet rope?
2. I really like this one if its possible to implement. I don't like the fact that you can build structures with no support.
3. I disagree. A rain barrel holds significantly less water than what a rain storm produces across the surface area of your roof and your roof survives just fine after each storm. If there was a leak it would be negligible in comparison to a storm. I doubt the entire water barrel bursting would cause much of a problem either. A number of gallons of water spilled on your roof is nothing in comparison to how the water got in the rain barrel in the first place. Also in urban areas it is extremely common to have large water vessels on rooftops to maintain water pressure and we don't hear about them collapsing roofs if they leak.
4. 100% against this (personally) unless your character was over-burdened, fatigued, stressed, panicked, injured etc. I hate the idea of random bad stuff happening for no reason. I am not against this if your character isn't injured from this and has to try again though. After a few attempts your character is fatigued and can no longer climb? Perhaps the nimble and strength skills can give a boost to the success rate?
5. Not against this. A few months after 'erosion' has taken place we have vines and overgrowth up to windows everywhere. And the player has ways of removing the undergrowth.
6. In a Z-Apoc, zombies won't be the only threat to survival. They will be a major one for sure, but not the only one. This is maybe not a great analogy, but I play 'Stranded Deep' occasionally. In that game sharks are the biggest threat since you have to travel from island to island for supplies. However there is a very easy way not to ensure that you will not get eaten by a shark; just don't go in the water!  In doing this you eliminate the number one threat in the game. It doesn't however mean that you will survive. Eventually you will run out of supplies and need to go to another island, and the sharks will be waiting. I like to think PZ is very similar. Once NPCs are in, you might not be able to stay up there in your floating fortress forever. Eventually you will (hopefully) be forced back down into the biggest threat.

[Jatta Pake]

That's a good point on Number 3. Bad example on my part. Maybe a better example is this - rooftop farms and water collectors require more resources and skills because of weight. Roofs aren't necessarily designed for the weight of soil, water, structures at the scale needed to keep people alive. (I'm not a roofer so I'm just spit balling here!)

Or the "trade off" could be that players cannot climb ropes with sacks of soil and planks. Make going up stairs with that stuff exhausting and really slow.

I think there are clever ways to nerf the advantages of being "up" in relation to Number 3.

I love your shark example. I'm ok with zombies being the "sharks" as long as you cannot attain permanent sustainability with your "up" island.

What goes up must come down.

[hrot]

Well i think there is a little problem with all that discussion.

Firstly floating base is simple exploit in current state of game and obviously at some point it will be removed.

Just like CaptKaspar said:

 

Require that all structures have supports. Zombies are able to destroy these supports. This would cause the structure to collapse, and also pin/kill the majority of zombies/players under it.

That system will be added, only question is when.

So there is no reason to discuss about it, if someone want to play in this way he can go also with normal cheats.

The game is in alpha now so there are things like this which wait to be solved later, normal thing.

Just don't use it and wait till it will be solved by devs but you want to balance things out by adding flying zombies (sarcasm).

Zombies shouldn't climb ropes, it doesn't have any sense because of many reasons which were said in this topic.

[Protocol47]

Im against climbing up a sheet rope. They seem to be for a quick escape from an upper floor. If we can climb them I agree there should be some risk involved. This should increase with carry weight, injury, and exhaustion.

I think ropes should be able to be used to climb up and down. They could be knotted so they are easier to climb. They are heavier than sheet ropes and fairly rare, I feel like that would help to balance things out. If you just want a quick escape a sheet rope works fine. If you want a means of entering and exiting, you'll need to find some ropes.

I would also like to see structural ladders available. Nothing that can be carried around, one built on a structure. Building a wooden ladder would make roof building easier as it would require less materials to build and would be easier to destroy afterwards than stairs. Maybe a rare few zombies could manage to climb them.

[RadCavalier]

I hate any idea that randomly penalizes a player for performing a routine action.

 

-snip-

 

If you character is healthy, not over-burdened, not stressed out or fatigued, random bad shit shouldn't just happen for the sake of gameplay and me not rage quitting the game!

 

This, this, a thousand times this. While I do admire the attempt to achieve "realism" in this game, we do have to recognize that we're playing this game to enjoy it and not be punished for no reason but random chance. Honestly, if there was a chance, no matter how small, to gruesomely wound myself for literally no reason except "RNG said so" on a sheet rope, then the "calm, thorough, and cautious" mentality that TIS is trying to cultivate in their game would dictate that I -never- use the rope.

It's like vaulting through broken windows. Broken windows have claimed more lives on my server than zombies simply because there's a small chance of deep wounding and that's just because there's no "more careful" option if all of the house's windows are broken. When you do something enough times (in this case, vaulting windows or climbing sheet ropes), even a minuscule chance turns into an eventuality. An eventual wound that we had no control over but to ignore that item entirely.

[Protocol47]

I agree players shouldn't be randomly penalized for performing necessary actions, like tripping while walking down stairs, choking on food, or twisting your ankle walking across a field. But I feel like climbing up a sheet rope isn't a necessary action, it seems like more of a shortcut. Any multi-story structure has stairs, but zombies can use them too, so you can't be truly safe. I like the idea of having to make the split-second decision of try to climb up the rope and potentially fall or fight through a bunch of zombies and maybe get bit.

It's kind of the same with broken windows, if things go bad you can try to climb out and escape, but you might get injured. If your trying to get into a building, you always have the option of breaking down the front door.

In the end it doesn't bother me if climbing up sheet ropes stays the way it is, I don't do it now anyway.