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ZombieHunter

Upcoming Combat Changes is a bad Idea

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With the new combat system proposed, it makes fighting zombie groups of 5+ almost a guaranteed death, without any sufficient countermeasure. 

 

If you try to be "realistic" without proper balance it is just going to make the game more frustrating and not fun. 

For example this new "Aim for the head" mechanic when down, is a bad idea. If I am in a zombie situation why would I am for anywhere else besides the head? With the controls being awkward trying to find the "head spot" in this game is going to be insanely frustrating. 

 

While we lack basic defensive structures still which could handle large groups. So now it is just compounding the problems. Guns attract massive hordes, and we have no defensive mechanims in place we could use to handle larger groups by being smart humans. Before implementing this new insta death mechanic, please add creative solutions first to deal with big groups, and quick switch weapons like holsters and tool belts. 

 

 

 

 

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It would be nice if we got all the stealth mode stuff with the new combat changes. 

Being able to peek, creep & sneak around would help. But if everyone is being a ninja there will not be much combat testing going on.

 

I personally don't think that killing hundreds of zombies a day should be the norm. But at the moment it is often needed.

 

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Reading too much into the blog post... the changes don't make it magically impossible to survive fighting more than 5 zombies for those that are smart enough to not just run into the center of the group.

 

Come on. We're not daft.

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With the shooting I am hoping it is set up for being able to aim at the head and your skill is the odds of it happening. I really would think that in a zombie outbreak you would quickly learn that shooting anywhere else would be futile.

 

So hoping with the new combat system the aim is always defaulted to trying to hit the head.

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On the opposite side, can you go for a leg hit if you'd prefer to simply disable/slow the zombie instead of taking the time to actually go for the kill? 

 

Such as you need a quick out a window or something like that, and just need to delay them a moment rather than go for multiple hits for a kill?

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On 5/12/2019 at 1:48 PM, EnigmaGrey said:

Reading too much into the blog post... the changes don't make it magically impossible to survive fighting more than 5 zombies for those that are smart enough to not just run into the center of the group.

 

Come on. We're not daft.

 

While outdoors it is less of a problem, but when you are in cramped spaces inside a zombie sneaking up on you like a stealth ninja assassin who has mastered the arts of the shinobi you are pretty much going to get 1 shot. 

There are currently a lot of issues with zombies, 

 

1. They all have 20 / 20 vision with perfect peripheral detection

2. They got hearing that makes even bats jealous. 

3. Some zombies do not make noise when moving around, which means they are able to sneak better than even max level sneak humans

4. Some how zombies are able to follow you in a large horde with 20 other zombies obstructing their vision. 

5. Advanced Ai pathing to detect points of entry 

 

Recommended Fixes:

 

1. Zombies don't instantly detect you, but require a period of time to be triggered. This was done in the old commandos games where even if the enemy saw you, you had a period of time before they actually were triggered

2. All zombies make "noise" if a zombies are coming from behind you, you see a "blip" it doesn't show you how many zombies just that a noise is there in the "shadow" region. The blip appears as the center location of the average. 

3. Zombies should be single-minded creatures they shouldn't find alternate paths to go around to enter a location. Nor should they keep being triggered when a sound goes away. The stimulation cooldown should be shorter especially in larger hordes chasing running players. 

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1 and 2 are already there. Some zombies are slower than others, some zombies are distracted, some zombies are even deaf. Zombies almost always growl when they get close to the player. Giving away the zombies in the fog of War would make the fog of War pointless, however.

 

3 is a consequence of needing zombies to be smart enough to actually be a threat to the player and act as the antagonist in the game.

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In the end, as long as there's an option to disable it or nerf it somehow, I am OK with it. For instance, I myself don't like the contagion when doing a long-time play, so I just disable it on the Custom Sandbox.

 

3 hours ago, ZombieHunter said:

1. They all have 20 / 20 vision with perfect peripheral detection

2. They got hearing that makes even bats jealous. 

3. Some zombies do not make noise when moving around, which means they are able to sneak better than even max level sneak humans

4. Some how zombies are able to follow you in a large horde with 20 other zombies obstructing their vision. 

5. Advanced Ai pathing to detect points of entry 

 

And all of those things can be changed too in the options. For instance, I usually like the stealthy approach, but at the same time I don't want the zed coming after me just because I opened a door, so I made them hard of hearing but with good eyesight and sense of smell.

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2 hours ago, Blake81 said:

In the end, as long as there's an option to disable it or nerf it somehow, I am OK with it. For instance, I myself don't like the contagion when doing a long-time play, so I just disable it on the Custom Sandbox.

 

 

And all of those things can be changed too in the options. For instance, I usually like the stealthy approach, but at the same time I don't want the zed coming after me just because I opened a door, so I made them hard of hearing but with good eyesight and sense of smell.

 

The problem really is the Ai it self and nerfing it really isn't the answer because the "normal" should be balanced.  Having a point system to "Trigger" zombies would be ideal solution. It needs so many points before a zombie starts following a player.

 

For example we first create 3 variations of zombies

Fresh ( Rare ) - requires 4points

Aged ( Common ) - Requires 8 points

Rotting ( Uncommon ) - requires 12 points

 

1 point per second in vision 

1 point per noise event ( breaking glass \ opening doors \ opening windows ) 

4 points per 2 seconds for car engine.  ( The reason it is 2 seconds is incase car zooms by, zombie just ignores it ) 

8 points per gun shot per second 

 

Point decay is 2 points per second. 

 

So unless a zombie is constantly "stimulated" they just wander around aimlessly like a zombie should.

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On 5/14/2019 at 7:41 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

1 and 2 are already there. Some zombies are slower than others, some zombies are distracted, some zombies are even deaf. Zombies almost always growl when they get close to the player. Giving away the zombies in the fog of War would make the fog of War pointless, however.

 

3 is a consequence of needing zombies to be smart enough to actually be a threat to the player and act as the antagonist in the game.

 

While in Theory that may sound true ( zombies being deaf or distracted ) in practice it is not what i am seeing.

Me and my friend have been trying all the new updates religiously cause we love the game and play on Survival mode.

( All detection settings set to normal ) 

 

If we walk within 15 - 20 tiles of a zombie even if they are turned around and not seeing us they immediately turn around and start shambling \ running toward us. We had a case day before yesterday. We were in a room with all the windows with curtains and simply standing in a corner doing nothing. Roughly staying in this room for 5 hours ( started at 22:00

)a horde came to our door at 2:30 am. This was like 15 - 20 zombies. 

 

For no apparent reason, just beelined at our door. It was by sheer luck we survived. 

If there was a "Tolerance" system it isn't working as it should.

 

There is a difference between difficulty and frustrating and players do need some sort of reasonable awareness \ counter to be able to deal with these situations especially since one bite is death.

 

There still is a lot of extremely bizarre behavior by zombies.

 

For example, to test it I built a log wall just a single piece of log wall next to my house. The helicopter came and for no reason, the Zombies kept attacking that log wall like it was their mortal enemy.  This log wall was in the middle of the street not connected to anything - I just wanted to see what would happen. 

 

To make things worse, I ran outside starting using my scream button ( Q - used in the tutorial ) 

 

They refused to chase me, they just kept attacking that log wall as if their lives depended on it  )

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You proposed a tolerance system after I posted, by a good five hours. I never mentioned one. Deaf zombies are specifically the ones indoors. Zombies otherwise have varied attributes based on the world age on spawn, from what I last checked. Zombies are distracted by other sounds and items in the world. Sometimes those sounds are in inconvenient places, resulting in inconvenient actions by the zombies. With only a small portion of the map being able to be loaded into memory at any time, real zombies only have a limited number of paths to get to those areas and, sometimes, it'll be through your house. They wonder somewhat randomly around on top of that.

 

A zombie spotting or hearing you from 15-20 tiles beggar belief.  I don't think it's actually a "problem" that requires a solution.

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I really don't think that it's a big deal - Right now, with a knife, or even an axe - you're able to absolutely destroy hundreds of zeds in a day, like one time I killed like 400 zombies with a carpenter profession, without any skills pumped into the weapons, or such.

IRL, if you hit an object in the path/trajectory of your attack - It doesn't phase through the hit target and hit the next one, pushing it back - It stops suddenly hard on the hit thing - Mordhau, an indie medieval melee game, does it pretty well - Blunt weapons stop on a hit target, not hitting the next person, but bladed weapons, like swords and such SLASH the targets, and don't stop on a hit target, they continue on their path hitting the next targets, but for reduced damage.

I feel like combat balanced this way would match Project Zomboid's not-SO-realistic-but-believable-and-enjoyable approach much more - Blunt weapons having strong knockback on attack, but machetes and other slashing weapons could do little knockback, but swings would be able to damage a whole group of zombies, with quick slashes they could be good, but range of machetes and knives is very short.

Blunt weapons like bats and golf clubs and such could also benefit from greater push distance (you know, spacebar when aiming), and it could push many zombies away in front of you, potentially tripping them - where that mechanic wouldn't be available (or viable) for bladed weapons.


BUT - I like not being over powered against a group of zombies, I like how current changes would force me to play more like a prey, not a predator like I played so far - I like being forced to actually feel like there's danger around every corner, and I'd love to have to stealth around a bit more, instead of only on early game. So many times I have dropped my saves because I settled down somewhere and I simply ran bored, because supply runs were almost too easy.

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In the end of all this, it's really up to the devs, but I for one think that being able to knock back five zeds with one swing, doesn't really feel right, and makes it to easy. I love the way build 41 looks, and can't wait to see how this game becomes more challenging, and more in depth.

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