"Manual breathing" VS Panic

[GOGOblin]

I've noticed that some things are a bit unfair: character suffers from your faults and also suffers from his own faults.

 

Example:

You misclick and character climbs through a window with glass shards - your fault.

Character tries to disassemble a door and breaks it to small pieces - character's fault.

 

Lets make things fair: charachter should not harm himself for no reason (until directly commanded by the player). 

Suggestion:

1) Make it harder for a character to do stupid things, don't climb windows with broken glass - remove glass as a default action, don't fall from edges at least while not running (like in minecraft). Also some autoaiming will be useful at least if there is only one Z in the vicinity.

2) If character is stressed or in panic or sleepy - turn "autopilot" off, the player will have harder times as a punishment for bad playing.

 

[Magic Mark]

It's a no for me on both accounts. None of this is unfair. Your player agency has consequences as does your character's inability to do something right. Both have a place in the game (as they do in basically every other game).

 

You clear the glass because it's the smart thing to do.

 

You miss clearing the glass because you are in a rush and chased by zeds. Or you aren't keen enough to do it on your own. You get your hands cut in the process. That's the way of the road.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Kim Jong Un

[Zomboid]

4 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

It's a no for me on both accounts. None of this is unfair. Your player agency has consequences as does your character's inability to do something right. Both have a place in the game (as they do in basically every other game).

 

You clear the glass because it's the smart thing to do.

 

You miss clearing the glass because you are in a rush and chased by zeds. Or you aren't keen enough to do it on your own. You get your hands cut in the process. That's the way of the road.

Actually he brings up a good point, let's just take the complete opposite position... it should be HARDER to NOT accidentally hurt yourself!!! For example mini game to open the window correctly or break the glass correctly to prevent people from using macros to easily not make mistakes.

[Magic Mark]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Actually he brings up a good point, let's just take the complete opposite position... it should be HARDER to NOT accidentally hurt yourself!!! For example mini game to open the window correctly or break the glass correctly to prevent people from using macros to easily not make mistakes.

Not quite sure if any of this is meant to be sarcastic?

 

Anyways, the game isn't going to reward players for being oblivious and shouldn't have to give an incentive for something as routine as clearing off a window frame. It shouldn't be a fun minigame for breaking the glass, it shouldn't be done automatically either.

 

It's rookie mistakes like that which create skill gaps between players, and it's not totally bad. Kind of like those in Insurgency who would start the match by reloading their mags for the +1 in the chamber to have that extra bullet for the fight VS those who totally forget to reload during their downtime. In the same way, people who reflexively clear the glass will have less obstacles than those who assume a broken window is as good as a door.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Kim Jong Un

[dannyisdude]

2 minutes ago, Kim Jong Un said:

Not quite sure if any of this is meant to be sarcastic?

 

Anyways, the game isn't going to reward players for being oblivious and shouldn't have to give an incentive for something as routine as clearing off a window frame. It shouldn't be a fun minigame for breaking the glass, it shouldn't be done automatically either.

 

It's rookie mistakes like that which create skill gaps between players, and it's not totally bad. Kind of like those in Insurgency who would start the match by reloading their mags for the +1 in the chamber to have that extra bullet for the fight VS those who totally forget to reload during their downtime. In the same way, people who reflexively clear the glass will have less obstacles than those who assume a broken window is as good as a door.

I agree. I like it just the way it is now. No need to make it more complex or easier.

[GOGOblin]

16 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

You miss clearing the glass because you are in a rush and chased by zeds. Or you aren't keen enough to do it on your own. You get your hands cut in the process. That's the way of the road.

Now climbing broken widows does'nt need to hold E key for a time, so misclicking is easier. Same for falling from balkony,  its the interface issue, not character's abilty to move on a stright line.

When you play Quake2 and have to control every millimeter of movement - its ok, its a sport;  but when you play minecraft -  you have a lot of other game aspects to think of and "safe crouching" is a perfect solution.

PZ has a huge RPG part that adds distance between the player and the character: shitty aiming, hidden recipes (of bread!), carpentry levels and so on.  But every time you misclick (rmb for both context menu and combat - fuuuuuu) your character dies like it is Quake. The fair way, as I see it, is

a) removing RPG part (what I would like to see, but DEV's surely do not) - this will make player=character and 100% of faults are player's faults, like in Quake  

b) sharing responsibility between player and character, giving character gaps - like recipes and skills - but also making him smart enough not to fall from second floor or not to ignore Z beneath his feet. 

 

Quote

You clear the glass because it's the smart thing to do.

Oh..  We seem to have really different points of view.

Edited September 1, 2016 by GOGOblin

[Magic Mark]

8 hours ago, GOGOblin said:

Now climbing broken widows does'nt need to hold E key for a time, so misclicking is easier. Same for falling from balkony,  its the interface issue, not character's abilty to move on a stright line.

When you play Quake2 and have to control every millimeter of movement - its ok, its a sport;  but when you play minecraft -  you have a lot of other game aspects to think of and "safe crouching" is a perfect solution.

PZ has a huge RPG part that adds distance between the player and the character: shitty aiming, hidden recipes (of bread!), carpentry levels and so on.  But every time you misclick (rmb for both context menu and combat - fuuuuuu) your character dies like it is Quake. The fair way, as I see it, is

a) removing RPG part (what I would like to see, but DEV's surely do not) - this will make player=character and 100% of faults are player's faults, like in Quake  

b) sharing responsibility between player and character, giving character gaps - like recipes and skills - but also making him smart enough not to fall from second floor or not to ignore Z beneath his feet. 

 

Oh..  We seem to have really different points of view.

I see what you mean, but you have to understand that the "roleplaying character restrictions" only go as far as profession-related unlocks and skill prowess. You are still making your own decisions in gameplay. 

 

Clearing the glass or not is not justifiably a reflexive reaction. You either do it or you don't based on how much of a rush you are in and that is still a decision for the player to make. Not knowing how to make bread (which most people who don't cook have no idea in the world how to, by the way) is not going to add distance to being responsible for your own actions, regardless how small those actions are. Like choosing to drink bleach because you are very thirsty, or carelessly eating berries. 

 

Recipes = crafting ability based on prior. No immediate effects on gameplay until you unlock those recipes manually through searching and reading. (example: breadmaking. Given to free to chef characters or characters with the small "liked to cook" trait, or found in a recipe book where cook books are found. Player agency only goes so far here to decide what they are at the beginning or search for the books.)

 

Skills = prowess of accomplishing various tasks. Some given based on starting traits. (example: Low shooting skill = miss your shots, circumvented by building the skill or starting with a suitable profession or skill. Player agency only goes so far here as to build skills or choose them from the beginning)

 

Player decisions = Actions decided by the player based on the situation. (example: clearing broken glass, running or fighting, drinking bleach. Ultimately up to the player to do or not to do and the player is responsible for the consequences of their actions)

 

Most of this, unfortunately, falls into that last category. Button slip-ups (which are already very easy to avoid when you are familiar with the controls) are just something that happens and in the end it is still the player's fault in the case of PZ. Pressing E is not the only way to interact with objects, and I believe you now need to hold E in order to vault things (may be incorrect here). I'm not saying "get gud scrub", I'm saying that I think PZ has covered up a lot in this area and it's probably fine the way it is.

 

Stuff like clearing a window frame should not be chopped down to an automatic action. As I've explained, it's situational, which leaves it up to player agency. Player agency is the big two-word subject here. Just because two aspects of the game play more into your character's chosen profession or skillbase does not mean you shouldn't be responsible for your decisions (both big and small) and even button slips .

Edited September 1, 2016 by Kim Jong Un

[GOGOblin]

4 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

You are still making your own decisions in gameplay. 

Yes, and I decide to live cautiously and guardedly.

 

4 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

Clearing the glass or not is not justifiably a reflexive reaction. You either do it or you don't based on how much of a rush you are in and that is still a decision for the player to make.

As I said we have different points of view: I suppose clearing the shards as a default action (until things get hairy and I NEED to tear through broken glass), I cant imagine why someone will ever climb through sharp blades without a big reason. 

 

4 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

Stuff like clearing a window frame should not be chopped down to an automatic action. As I've explained, it's situational, which leaves it up to player agency.

 I agree that this kind of actions add "flavour" to the game and I fell in love with PZ because those f***ing shards of glass in my character's butt..   But I still insisnt that removing glass should be the default action (until a character is chased by Zs or something like this). 

[CaptKaspar]

2 hours ago, GOGOblin said:

Yes, and I decide to live cautiously and guardedly.

 

As I said we have different points of view: I suppose clearing the shards as a default action (until things get hairy and I NEED to tear through broken glass), I cant imagine why someone will ever climb through sharp blades without a big reason. 

 

 I agree that this kind of actions add "flavour" to the game and I fell in love with PZ because those f***ing shards of glass in my character's butt..   But I still insisnt that removing glass should be the default action (until a character is chased by Zs or something like this). 

 

While I agree with you, that you would assume no one would jump out a window that has broken glass in its frame unless they had to, I think there's a major problem with that line of thinking. It assumes the player has 'common sense' and in my experience the biggest problem with 'common sense' is that its not all that common.

[GOGOblin]

7 hours ago, CaptKaspar said:

jump out a window

I mean no jumping, I mean entering ground floor windows to loot a house. There is absolutely no reason to skip glass removing (if you jump somewhere you may have a reason). Same for being inside a cleared house - idiot-character climbs through glass while the door is next to the window -because of misclick.

 

You may saythats player's fault, ofc it is, but the price of it may be too high. Games that totally rely on player - quake, minecraft - are simple and have respawn, lots of other games have save/load, roguelikes are turn-based, but PZ has it all: realtime, no saves, complicated interface AND a no-brain character. 

 

7 hours ago, CaptKaspar said:

the biggest problem with 'common sense' is that its not all that common

Yep,what seem obvious to one is a shitton of oddity to another. Not following "one's common sense". look offensive, like it is provoking or neglect. 

[CaptKaspar]

9 hours ago, GOGOblin said:

You may saythats player's fault, ofc it is, but the price of it may be too high.

 

I get what you're saying, that a simple miss click can ruin the player's game. But a simple miss swing on a zombie can also end the game as well. Should we have auto-lock when fighting zombies or something like that as well? They're a danger and you would assume that a player would always attack the greatest threat and not swing at open air.

 

A lot of players strongly support realism in this game. IRL you do have to be careful with every action you take. While its hopefully safe to assume that a person would not hop through a window frame with broken glass in it unless the risk of not doing so was higher than doing it (a zombie bite is worse than needing stitches from shards of glass). The fact is that they could. Removing that threat isn't realistic IMO.

 

It sounds more like you don't like that you can accidentally click on a window and your character will jump through it, more than you want to auto-remove glass. The devs tried to address this by requiring you to hold down 'E' to hop through windows and over fences. Opening doors for example only requires a quick click of 'E'.

 

Maybe if you use the right-click menu that it could highlight what you are attempting to interact with as well? This could further cut down on miss clicks because you could visually see what you are interacting with. However, I suppose simply having 'remove broken glass' in the context menu should be enough. If that's not there, you're clicking on the wrong thing.

 

I for one don't support auto removing dangers for players. This is a game of 'how you died'. IRL you need to be careful in everything you do or you can end up injured from carelessness and assumptions. 'Safety is no accident' and all that.

 

I do get what you're saying though, a game killing you for what might seem like wonkiness (I think I made up that word) is usually no fun for anyone.

[GOGOblin]

On 02.09.2016 at 9:07 PM, CaptKaspar said:

A lot of players strongly support realism in this game.

So do I, but I see more realism in sharing responsibility with a characte , until all rpg-stuff is removed and there is no distance between player and character.

 

On 02.09.2016 at 9:07 PM, CaptKaspar said:

requiring you to hold down 'E' to hop through windows

It was like this before, now a character climbs right after you touch E. I thought this was made for faster evading Z's. Thats why I started this topic: you try to open a door, the idiot climbs through glass.

 

On 02.09.2016 at 9:07 PM, CaptKaspar said:

I for one don't support auto removing dangers for players.

I dont want to remove dangers, I want to improve interface. For now we have pretty overburdened context menu (which glitches for dismantling, btw) and its too easy to fal accidentally.

[makkenhoff]

I don't agree with your proposed changes, but I can see why you might think it worthwhile.  Your idea of "unfair" is different from my own, because what your calling interface improvements, are in fact, not improvements to the interface, but changes to gameplay for the sake of preventing what may in fact be a bug or oversight.

 

The trouble with what you suggest is that it basically removes specific and very real dangers, unless an easy to use gimmick is applied (in this case, lack of sleep). The simple fact is, what you consider a broken window, as your included picture suggests, is not the only way a window can be broken. I would charge that in some cases, when a character chooses to jump into a window with broken glass, it may only have a few small bits of glass remaining. And not necessarily the ridiculously huge jagged shards like in your picture, which any sane would reconsider jumping into, short of a horde chasing after them.

 

When you talk about improvements to the interface, your either suggesting additional context menus, or removal of specific context menus. Because that's the interface PZ has chosen to use. It works, even if it is clunky at times. I've played with the original interface, and this is much improved from the original. No one has been lucky enough to come across a good rock solid way to improve the interface without sacrifice. If you find a bug, please post it in the bug report forum. We try and reproduce bugs and if we are lucky, we can get them repeatable and that raises the chances of a fix being made.

 

 

---- 

 

So, to clarify my position:

 

It may be an oversight or bug that is causing you to jump into windows instead of doors, file a bug report and make sure to include the circumstances and the exact locations where you find it occurs most often. (Makes it easier to test) I would wager it would be an oversight to use a window over a door, and is most likely because a window and door are too close together in the first place.

 

As far as your suggestion on "auto aim" I'll admit that is one thing that might be worth considering in my mind. I've had enough times where I thought I had the right direction, and I miss, that I could justify adding it as an optional mod, or perhaps as an assist on lower difficulties, but survival needs to stay hard, period.

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by makkenhoff