You can build everything from the get go.

[Livio Persemprio]

"Poisoning isn't implemented yet." actually iirc you actually can add poison to meals, how well it is hidden depends on your cooking skill, and how well others can notice the poison depends on their cooking skill as well, but i'm not completely sure on this last one

[Rathlord]

 

 

Also who drinks bleach?

 

50,000+ reports a year in the US alone and the number one cause of accidental poisoning in the world.

 

If I understood his intention of asking the question right, you've kind of proven his point.

It seems to be a fair counter-question to

 

Why would anyone waste resources attemting to build something complex, if they can bulid something tangible like a bunch of walls without wasting resources or time?

 

 

Uh... what? First of all, bleach has plenty of uses in game as has already been explained, but even if that weren't the case it's still a pretty confusing comparison. Proving that people are sometimes morons and do stupid things like drink bleach doesn't mean you should change the entire crafting system to cater to morons. And if he's not saying that his system is as stupid as drinking bleach, then... the comparison still doesn't make sense because that would mean the two are in no way related?

 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but none of this makes sense to me at all.

[Sykriss]

...Bleach can be used to clean up blood and poison food...

 

Really? How?

[nasKo]

Uh... what? First of all, bleach has plenty of uses in game as has already been explained, but even if that weren't the case it's still a pretty confusing comparison. Proving that people are sometimes morons and do stupid things like drink bleach doesn't mean you should change the entire crafting system to cater to morons. And if he's not saying that his system is as stupid as drinking bleach, then... the comparison still doesn't make sense because that would mean the two are in no way related?

 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but none of this makes sense to me at all.

Noone said that the two things are related or that people drinking bleach leads to changing the building system.

"Why do people do illogical thing X"

"Why do people do illogical thing Y"

Hope that's more understandable. I have no way of knowing how he meant it though so I am not sure what we're even arguing about. I'm just a bit disappointed that his suggestion is being shot down from the get-go instead of giving it some thought. Elementary school debates are going down nicer than suggestion threads on here.

[EnigmaGrey]

 

Uh... what? First of all, bleach has plenty of uses in game as has already been explained, but even if that weren't the case it's still a pretty confusing comparison. Proving that people are sometimes morons and do stupid things like drink bleach doesn't mean you should change the entire crafting system to cater to morons. And if he's not saying that his system is as stupid as drinking bleach, then... the comparison still doesn't make sense because that would mean the two are in no way related?

 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but none of this makes sense to me at all.

Noone said that the two things are related or that people drinking bleach leads to changing the building system.

"Why do people do illogical thing X"

"Why do people do illogical thing Y"

Hope that's more understandable. I have no way of knowing how he meant it though so I am not sure what we're even arguing about. I'm just a bit disappointed that his suggestion is being shot down from the get-go instead of giving it some thought. Elementary school debates are going down nicer than suggestion threads on here.

 

Except the addition of bleach was mentioned, along with white berries, in an attempt to justify this addition for its aethetics, even if it might not be used by other people. I don't think it had anything to do with the logic or intelligence of the user's actions.

 

If anything, experience is a better tact: unexperienced users might assume 30% chance to pick a lock is worth trying, until they've broken a few locks and can no longer access that loot (or access that loot without destroying it via explosives). Unexperienced users might also assume using explosives without any experience shouldn't blow them up. Those that have never encounted bleach (or are tricked by the tooltip) probably assume it's drinkable.

 

It's atmospheric and adds flavor to the game, at least that much can be said. If I can build a poor quality staircase that'll fall apart after a few uses, maybe I just want to build that staircase . . . until I realise I could have just wasted my material and time something I'm proficient at. And there is some merit to this even in game, right now: no levels or anything you have ~1/5 - 2/5 hitchance with a pistol -- sometimes it's really worth the sacrifice of those bullets.

[uberevan]

 

Uh... what? First of all, bleach has plenty of uses in game as has already been explained, but even if that weren't the case it's still a pretty confusing comparison. Proving that people are sometimes morons and do stupid things like drink bleach doesn't mean you should change the entire crafting system to cater to morons. And if he's not saying that his system is as stupid as drinking bleach, then... the comparison still doesn't make sense because that would mean the two are in no way related?

 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but none of this makes sense to me at all.

Noone said that the two things are related or that people drinking bleach leads to changing the building system.

"Why do people do illogical thing X"

"Why do people do illogical thing Y"

Hope that's more understandable. I have no way of knowing how he meant it though so I am not sure what we're even arguing about. I'm just a bit disappointed that his suggestion is being shot down from the get-go instead of giving it some thought. Elementary school debates are going down nicer than suggestion threads on here.

 

 

I think the difference here is that with Bleach, it can serve a legitimate purpose in addition to being a feature for "morons" as Rathlord put it.  Adding the "building everything from the get-go" feature may end up only being used by "morons" and be useless for "pros".  One counterargument I might add is that it's not like adding this feature will make things inherently worse for the good players, only serve as a lesson for the new players.

[Rathlord]

I think the difference here is that with Bleach, it can serve a legitimate purpose in addition to being a feature for "morons" as Rathlord put it.  Adding the "building everything from the get-go" feature may end up only being used by "morons" and be useless for "pros".  One counterargument I might add is that it's not like adding this feature will make things inherently worse for the good players, only serve as a lesson for the new players.

 

 

To be honest, I'm more concerned with the fact that is ruins the idea of specialization, one that the devs have been pretty clear about wanting to keep. That and breaking resource balance entirely. But there's reasons for specialization being a thing. It makes multiplayer much more compelling and will also make NPC's more compelling and valuable. And, as the devs have said many, MANY times they don't want people to be able to do everything. The whole idea runs counter to many of the previously stated goals for the game.

[nasKo]

 

I think the difference here is that with Bleach, it can serve a legitimate purpose in addition to being a feature for "morons" as Rathlord put it.  Adding the "building everything from the get-go" feature may end up only being used by "morons" and be useless for "pros".  One counterargument I might add is that it's not like adding this feature will make things inherently worse for the good players, only serve as a lesson for the new players.

 

To be honest, I'm more concerned with the fact that is ruins the idea of specialization, one that the devs have been pretty clear about wanting to keep. That and breaking resource balance entirely. But there's reasons for specialization being a thing. It makes multiplayer much more compelling and will also make NPC's more compelling and valuable. And, as the devs have said many, MANY times they don't want people to be able to do everything. The whole idea runs counter to many of the previously stated goals for the game.

 

That's a bad argument or rather unwarranted concern since you certainly could balance this system in a way where it's neither easier nor impossible to specialize.

If done correctly, it wouldn't take away the ability nor necessity to specialize, nor would it "break resource balance entirely".

Right now you can run around, sneak alongside a huge horde, gather XP en masse, build floor tiles and then level up carpentry, being able to build stuff you weren't able to build before because it was flat out locked.

With this, you could at least attempt to build it, salvage the degraded resources of a failed attempt and then try again until the resources might break alltogether.

People who are experienced with the game or just "clever" about it would still wait until they are specialized. Others might try to build a rainbarrel since they have the proper resources but then find out they're shit at carpentry because the barrel leaks. Or the bed is really uncomfortable and possibly breaks after an overweight person uses it. Lesson learned. Now find out about that bleach thirst reduction.

So no, not having everything locked away doesn't automatically mean resource balance is broken or the vision of the devs about people specializing in carpentry is corrupted. This doesn't have to lead to everyone being able to build everything from the get-go like the title suggests. Instead, it could mean people can at least try to build a really shitty rainbarrel and learn from their mistakes. Just like they will find out that aiming level 0 is really not worth using a gun with.

[EnigmaGrey]

So we'll have a fully open system that penalizes people so severely for not being specalized, that it's similar to the current locked-down one. Only instead of waiting until you level up, you can start failing immediately / get only a small benefit and potentially waste your time/resources, but you'll only do that if you're a newb or desparate.

In a nut shell, that's why these systems tend to get flak from gamers.

 

Is it bad by itself? As said above, I guess not, but it's not all that different either. The only real changes, aside from the above, are minimizing the importance of levelling* (it just becomes a modifier again, which I guess is fair, since most of the current levelling system is depressingly exactly that) and a quality system with unique effects for each object is added.

 

*Just after we made it even more important with learned recipes and doubling the number of available levels

[nasKo]

So we'll have a fully open system that penalizes people so severely for not being specalized, that it's similar to the current locked-down one. Only instead of waiting until you level up, you can start failing immediately / get only a small benefit and potentially waste your time/resources, but only if you're a newb or desparate.

Brilliant.

 

What are they wasting exactly?

The nails they could potentially reuse once or twice? Or possibly even make more nails with the new metalworking system? 

The wood, since we don't have a lot of that?

 

To a (much) lesser extent, ammo and melee weapons are being wasted right now by using them when unskilled.

With weapons, people have to waste ammo as well. Even at aiming level 0, it has a slight chance of saving your life.

That shitty rainbarrel might still give you a benefit (gathering x ammount of water out of it before it's all leaked out). Those shitty walls/barricades you're building could make a difference between life and death, as well.

That shitty crate might burst once you've put a certain amount of items/weight in them.

If you want a job done properly, you attempt it when skilled enough or let someone else handle it.

[Rathlord]

 

That shitty rainbarrel might still give you a benefit (gathering x ammount of water out of it before it's all leaked out). Those shitty walls/barricades you're building could make a difference between life and death, as well.

That shitty crate might burst once you've put a certain amount of items/weight in them.

 

 

All of which categorically and inarguably makes the game easier, in direct contradiction to the devs most recent efforts.

[EnigmaGrey]

See edit above. *Shrug*

[Blasted_Taco]

Maybe you can try to de-contrsuct something to learn the recipe and from there try to do what OP wants?

 

This is more of Rust type of thing.

[BetaSpectre]

 

 

That shitty rainbarrel might still give you a benefit (gathering x ammount of water out of it before it's all leaked out). Those shitty walls/barricades you're building could make a difference between life and death, as well.

That shitty crate might burst once you've put a certain amount of items/weight in them.

 

 

All of which categorically and inarguably makes the game easier, in direct contradiction to the devs most recent efforts.

 

Bombs and Generators sure are making things harder...traps too... The Devs want to make the game more expansive and a good playable experience. Farming made the game easier. Its doubtful that this idea would really make a huge impact on gameplay. You can shoot a gun without any skill in it, you can swing a bat without needing a pre-requisite skill. The game doesn't have skill requirements to wield certain items, but when building you can't even attempt to fail.

[EnigmaGrey]

Excelt it makes sense with weapons and less so with construction and other actions. Weapons do not always require success to advance and learn, they're still highly effective even at low level, and their components are massively plentiful. Most of the items in the game are weapons. Skill requirements (something even the original Fallout and XComs didn't do) for weapons don't really make sense, unlike the mechanical and technical skills associated with a wide assortment of tools and techniques; I think it's fair to say that it's much easier to hold and swing a bat than it is to plan and assemble something from scratch?

 

And of course it would have an impact on gameplay, at least if it's implemented in the way you seem to want it -- as a means to get instant gratification from construction, rather than wait for leveling, with more renewable resources.

[King jjwpenguin]

i think having a lower build cost earlier on may be better since building a box can be done without knowledge its just materials are used less efficient and may fail. I can make a box but it will most likely take 10 planks or so and use 30 nails with a hammer and take me 1/2 a day. i know little of wood working but i can do it. But things like stairs i could agree on since if you do it to early you may fall through. I would be interested in seeing building becoming more like you start a building project and then you slowly add materials over time like you may start the stairs but you need 25 planks. rather then holding it all you could bring little by little working on it as you need making it so its not just BAM done with 3 planks or something.