Mining/Metalworking/Fishing

[ExcentriCreation]

While its true that Smithing is a dying Trade/Art form its still taught as part of a Fabrication profession.... I have a damn fine pair of dividers in my toolbox that were half forged (shaped & hot riveted) & again building those was a prerequisite of me passing my course.

 

"Forging a weapon would get you a silly, impractical, unrealistic weapon that's weaker than what you can find"

I knew a Smith that used to make "tomahawk" heads out of railway spikes & as for "weaker than what you can find" are you going to elaborate on this at all.... It sounds like your talking about work hardening but, as I said earlier, this can be fixed with basic heat treatment skills.... again taught in a Fabrication profession.

 

"it would require a good amount of dev time for new items, new systems, and new skills"

I don't see how this is a point

​Virtually any new content is going to require a good amount of dev time.... queue some BS about Dinosaurs with lasers

 

"dude im 16 i can easily build a table i actually did and a chair too not that hard :l its really easy"

​that was aimed at the sub discussion of knowing HOW to build something, you wouldn't have known if someone didn't tell you

 

EDIT:

On the other hand, yes SOMETIMES there is a better way than forging. I also knew a guy that would make blades out of hand files because the steel was already tempered, those were as good as anything you could buy.... Mind you, you still have to be VERY careful because grinders & sanders CAN generate enough heat to cause work hardening.... not to mention "blowtorches"  (oxy-accetalyne?)

Its also noteworthy that this guy was an abatwa worker so he knew his knives but had no noteworthy fabricating skills.... Which brings me back to my point about Hicks & Rednecks

 

WOW! Go to sleep, wake up & the topic has virtually doubled in size....

Next point. Impurities in scrap steel.

This IS a valid point as far as forging & welding is concerned (though in forging its not THAT big of a deal).... not casting though. Impurities will get "burnt out" at those temperatures resulting in SLIGHTLY more carbon in your steel or SMALL imperfections caused by foreign metals which didn't bond to the main metal in the melt.

The guys in the foundry used to throw their rubbish in the ladle during smoko & lunch, just letting it burn during their next melt. They probably shouldn't have been doing that but it made virtually no difference to the end product

[American Steel]

American Steel, I meant total U.S. population, and that was just a rough number. The number of smiths (and I'm not talking factory workers who press a button for hours on end) is probably less than a hundredth of a percent, if that. Just think how many professions come before it. Sure, if the devs want to make the other hundreds of thousands of professions that are more common than smithing, I'd be all for it.

 

 

It does not really matter to me if it is a Smith or a Mechanic.  If the skill set can add depth and versatility, then I am all for it.  For instance, honest to goodness gun smiths are also a rare breed.  If a player has a 9mm jam, chances are they will not know why.  All they know is it is broken.  Firing a similar weapon more does not equate to fixing the trigger assembly or discovering the firepin has a burr.  A player may not know why he is missing so often, when he does not know the sight assembly is mucked up or there is a bad scratch down a turn in the barrel.  A gun smith would.  A Gun Smith could take parts from existing weapons with some machine tools and do something... more.  Look at the Grease Gun used by tankers.  Looks like a piece of junk.  Works like a charm.  Why?  It is simple and efficient, like an AK.  Not saying the character will need to re-invent the wheel BUT adding a drum to the bottom of shotgun would be a nice turn of events when all the Zeds in town come a callin.

 

I would hope the devs "waste their time" on things that could improve the overall depth and feel to the game, based around the campaign area.  If it would make any sort of sense and can be useful, then why not do it?  Right now all we have is three basic skills.  Everyting added well is a boon to the game.

[EnigmaGrey]

Can someone explain to me why it shouldn't be implemented at all - even as something you'd have to level as part of the crafting skills or - heaven forbid - a profession?

Because this game isn't MineCraft and to stoop to MineCraft's level of abstraction would contaminate the game and the expectation of the playerbase, I suppose.

*Collects scrap metal, melts down, forges super katanna of zombie-badass*

Unless you mean something more sane like working metal to repair things or pound into something marginally useful (but easily acquired, pre-made, in real life).

[Rathlord]

While its true that Smithing is a dying Trade/Art form its still taught as part of a Fabrication profession.... I have a damn fine pair of dividers in my toolbox that were half forged (shaped & hot riveted) & again building those was a prerequisite of me passing my course.

 

As was said in the other post "I know how" is not a valid reason for something being common knowledge.

 

 

"Forging a weapon would get you a silly, impractical, unrealistic weapon that's weaker than what you can find"

I knew a Smith that used to make "tomahawk" heads out of railway spikes & as for "weaker than what you can find" are you going to elaborate on this at all.... It sounds like your talking about work hardening but, as I said earlier, this can be fixed with basic heat treatment skills.... again taught in a Fabrication profession.

 

Don't even know where to start… "I knew a smith" once again directly contradicts any pretense of common knowledge. If you think it should only be allowed to do by someone who choses that as a profession… that means large amounts of dev time spent on items that can only be used by a small portion of players, and once again the most important point, something that could be done better without forging. You could spend probably months finding the necessary materials to build a forge from scratch, (of course, we're going with the assumption that you just 'know' how to do all of this, once again), finding the railway spike, hours or days working it into a crude tomahawk head, lashing it onto a haft, and having a crappy tomahawk made from brittle metal, or you could take 10 minutes to scavenge for a better weapon (or just lash the railway spike onto a haft for a crude spear, which would likely work better than a tomahawk for zombies as piercing weapons > slashing weapons).

 

 

"it would require a good amount of dev time for new items, new systems, and new skills"

I don't see how this is a point

​Virtually any new content is going to require a good amount of dev time.... queue some BS about Dinosaurs with lasers

 

Mentioned this already, but devoting dev time to something that would not be used in the vast majority of games by the vast majority of players would be time better spent on things everyone could use. Dev time is not unlimited, as much as we all wish it was.

[Xunzul]

American Steel, I meant total U.S. population, and that was just a rough number. The number of smiths (and I'm not talking factory workers who press a button for hours on end) is probably less than a hundredth of a percent, if that. Just think how many professions come before it. Sure, if the devs want to make the other hundreds of thousands of professions that are more common than smithing, I'd be all for it.

 

Xunzul, you can defend your idea all you want; but you're using insults, generalizations, broken analogies, and categorical fallacies to defend it. That makes you wrong, even if there are legitimate arguments for smithing, you present none of them.

 

Rathlord i work in a foundry, as smith and metal welder. You want me to present why you are wrong, so you want from me a lesson about the works i do in my life? You want a lesson about what i study in the school age? You ask me that ? I said there are a lot type of way to work the metals, there's a lot type of metals instead and there's all things and way to melt it... a player in a game don't have to learn how to smelt and work iron, that's prerogative of the character he or she comand. This is not a istructional game, i don't want to be your professor of metalworking and you don't need me to be it... all we have to know about my arguments it's not a fantasy but is real, pheraps in game the fantasy was the zombies not the blacksmithing, not the crafting. I don't want to teach to who won't learn and want only to win a debate to win his fantasy and wants to pass metallurgy like a fantasy... this make me crazy...it is impossible that we got to this point(low grade discussion). I said all i have to said, people will judge by his own who's right and developers too and i know the knowleged people will do the right thing about project zomboid to make the game more complete and fun than how it's now.

 

 

or you could take 10 minutes to scavenge

 

So for you the game is end... the only upgrade it need is to add object to scavenge.... bleahhhh booooooring... totaly disappoint you.

[Rathlord]

WOW! Go to sleep, wake up & the topic has virtually doubled in size....

Next point. Impurities in scrap steel.

This IS a valid point as far as forging & welding is concerned (though in forging its not THAT big of a deal).... not casting though. Impurities will get "burnt out" at those temperatures resulting in SLIGHTLY more carbon in your steel or SMALL imperfections caused by foreign metals which didn't bond to the main metal in the melt.

 

You still have yet to provide an even remotely accurate portrayal of a home made forge that could heat to this level realistically.

Rathlord i work in a foundry, as smith and metal welder. You want me to present why you are wrong, so you want from me a lesson about the works i do in my life? You want a lesson about what i study in the school age? You ask me that ? I said there are a lot type of way to work the metals, there's a lot type of metals instead and there's all things and way to melt it... a player in a game don't have to learn how to smelt and work iron, that's prerogative of the character he or she comand. This is not a istructional game, i don't want to be your professor of metalworking and you don't need me to be it... all we have to know about my arguments it's not a fantasy but is real, pheraps in game the fantasy was the zombies not the blacksmithing, not the crafting. I don't want to teach to who won't learn and want only to win a debate to win his fantasy and wants to pass metallurgy like a fantasy... this make me crazy...it is impossible that we got to this point(low grade discussion). I said all i have to said, people will judge by his own who's right and developers too and i know the knowleged people will do the right thing about project zomboid to make the game more complete and fun than how it's now.

 

 

So if I'm reading right, what you've just said is you can't be arsed to give evidence to back up your points because you were too busy being insulting and obtusely misinterpreting what I and others have said? Yes, it's a clever argument you make. I'm glad we had this talk. I won't even touch how suspicious it is that just now you decide to mention that you work in the industry. How very… serendipitous.

[Rathlord]

 

 

or you could take 10 minutes to scavenge

 

So for you the game is end... the only upgrade it need is to add object to scavenge.... bleahhhh booooooring... totaly disappoint you.

 

 

If you want Minecraft-esque arcade-y crafting systems and game play, this isn't the game for you. I'm sorry you find realism boring.

[Xunzul]

Sometime someone take the reality as an insult, but is only the reality sorry...

 

Whetever im 33 years old i do indurstrial high school, i do smith, metallurgy, chemical maintence on steel production machinery, foundry maintence, plastic and metal welder, gardner, boat engeneering, steel milling and truck driver... and i don't finish the high school only cos i need to go work at young age. So now you know of what i talk about and why i think is not fantasy my argument... but most of all, why i like to do that in a game too, cos i like it and i know how much usefull it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

or you could take 10 minutes to scavenge

 

So for you the game is end... the only upgrade it need is to add object to scavenge.... bleahhhh booooooring... totaly disappoint you.

 

 

If you want Minecraft-esque arcade-y crafting systems and game play, this isn't the game for you. I'm sorry you find realism boring.

 

 

 

Not all think as you, this is your opinion, is the opinion of one who lose a debate cos have finish the arguments to reply.

[Rathlord]

It doesn't matter whether you disagree with me, bud. That's the developer's opinion on the game that they've made completely clear and public in the three years I've been on these forums.

[ExcentriCreation]

You still have yet to provide an even remotely accurate portrayal of a home made forge that could heat to this level realistically.

 

This isn't a good one but still demonstrates that in can be done

 

 

 

Refractory Cement can be substituted for Ceramic Fiber Blanket, & its not unrealistic to assume that these materials would be stocked at the logging company for use in their wood kilns (although I AM making assumptions there)

Zircon Paint = thermal paint.... the guy is talking himself up

[Fj45]

Xunzul posts have just devolved into foam-mouth rants, I can hardly read them.

 

 

 

You still have yet to provide an even remotely accurate portrayal of a home made forge that could heat to this level realistically.

 

This isn't a good one but still demonstrates that in can be done

 

 

 

Refractory Cement can be substituted for Ceramic Fiber Blanket, & its not unrealistic to assume that these materials would be stocked at the logging company for use in their wood kilns (although I AM making assumptions there)

Zircon Paint = thermal paint.... the guy is talking himself up

 

 

That looks pretty damn complex and specific.

[Rathlord]

Things you'd need to find:

 

1) Large amounts of cast iron

2) A crucible (good luck!)

3) Propane

4) Oil drum

5) Heat proof glue (good luck!)

6) Ceramic cement (I highly doubt the logging company has this; most of these things are built by professionals- the materials for forges aren't just kept on hand)

7) Copper piping of multiple diameters

8) Hacksaw

9) Some kind of heat resilient flooring for the forge

10) Blowtorch (and hood, and fuel)

11) Tongs

12) The knowledge of how to do these things

[ExcentriCreation]

OMG!

Possible contender for the Darwin Awards!

 

 

 

Cut up a Propane tank 

[Rathlord]

Would not cut into a propane tank if it had been sitting open for 25 years… Well, rest easy that this guy probably won't live long enough to propagate XD

[Fj45]

OMG!

Possible contender for the Darwin Awards!

 

 

 

Cut up a Propane tank 

 

See everyone?

 

People are really frickin stupid.

[ExcentriCreation]

Things you'd need to find:

 

1) Large amounts of cast iron - nails/railway spikes (check!) Cast Iron is a term for malleable steel with low carbon content. I went nuts looking for TRUE Iron for electromagnet cores

2) A crucible (good luck!) - Substituted with masonry pot (check!)

3) Propane - Easy (check!)

4) Oil drum - Easy (check!) Though not necessary as long as you have walls made out of Industrial insulation aka. Ceramic Cement

5) Heat proof glue (good luck!) - repairs to Industrial Kilns. Heat levels are WAY different but its OH&S dude

6) Ceramic cement (I highly doubt the logging company has this; most of these things are built by professionals- the materials for forges aren't just kept on hand) - same as above

7) Copper piping of multiple diameters - Why copper? Where was copper used?

8) Hacksaw - Easy (check!)

     Grinder - Easy (check!)

     Drill - Easy (check!)

     Generator - Easy (check!)

9) Some kind of heat resilient flooring for the forge - regular cement will work.... It will EVENTUALLY crack & become un-level but it will work. That or use the same Industrial Insulation aka. Ceramic Cement (check!)

10) Blowtorch (and hood, and fuel) - This again Are you talking about Oxy-Acetylene or Butane? Either way its Hicksville Kentucky (check!)

I don't know how it is in the US, but in rural Australia you cant go 20km without running into an engineering joint.... That means Acetylene, Butane, Argon, ArgoShield (Argon/Carbon-dioxide mix) , Oxygen, ect.

11) Tongs - Fabricate (check!)

12) The knowledge of how to do these things

 

The issue I'm seeing here is you seem to be under the impression that its an exact science.... ITS NOT

A LOT of engineering comes down to "rig it together but do a good job". At first glance the tolerances are utterly horrifying but that's the way it works, like my example of the burner. Rig together a couple of pieces of pipe, drill some holes in it & attach a injection molded gas fitting & hey presto you got a BBQ burner.... Taper the outlets & purge the joins for extra strength & you got a high pressure torch

 

OMG!

Possible contender for the Darwin Awards!

 

 

 

Cut up a Propane tank 

 

See everyone?

 

People are really frickin stupid.

 

 

There are ways to go about it but all of the OH&S drills you go through for Hazardous containers don't apply to gas cylinders.....

AGREED!

[Rathlord]

And you still seem to be under the sad impression that all of these items you can go to Walmart and pick up. Good luck finding a single place in a small town that sells ceramic cement, or even a masonry pot that can withstand that temperature.

 

By the way, normal concrete will actually actively crack and fall apart at only a few hundred degrees F. That's a few thousand degrees short of what you need.

 

At this point you're just saying "nuh uh nuh uh" with no facts to back up that you could actually find this shit. You couldn't, you don't, and you wouldn't.

 

And you still refuse to acknowledge the point that there's no fucking point in going to all this trouble when you could find solutions without spending months preparing that works as well as if not better than your forging.

 

I don't know why you're still beating this dead horse- it's puerile and silly. At this point, you may as well be living in the land of make believe just pretending all of these components and the knowledge to use them are commonplace.

 

Even if all of that stuff were common place (and you must not be the sharpest knife in the drawer if you think that anyways), you still have to have a character that knows how to use it and find it all individually piecemeal across the county. The chances of being the character that has the knowledge, finding ALL of the parts you'd need, and actually being able to do it are blisteringly, obviously, in your face minuscule. You've just gotten it in your head that you must argue with me about this regardless of any facts, actual quality of content added to the game, or basic logic.

[ExcentriCreation]

woah, settle down.... Taking this a little seriously aren't you

 

I already submitted in that IF IT WERE to be implemented it would be based on profession

How about providing some FACTS that you couldn't find any of the items

[Rathlord]

I work at the biggest crafting/hobby/sporting good retailer (somewhat similar to Home Depot) in a town 27 times size of Muldraugh, KY, the kind of place that would have this stuff if it was around. We have a tiny selection of heat proof glue and almost none of the other specialty items. Also lived fairly close to Muldraugh for the majority of my life, and some of this stuff I've never seen before. Bear in mind, I lived on a farm- we did our own welding, vehicle repairs, even a decent amount of fabrication but we never had access to things like this. And to state again, Muldraugh has a population of about 1,000 people. I doubt they have anything more than a hardware store there.

 

As for taking it "seriously," sure. I find it highly annoying when, the way I perceive it, people hide behind anonymity and posture ridiculous statements repeatedly in the face of logic. That being said, I don't really think I need to 'settle down'; it takes more than a bit of annoyance for me to lose my cool.

 

Edit: I mean honestly, let's be reasonable here. Do you think 1 in a thousand people are hobby blacksmiths? If you honestly think that, I will cede your point and hail you king of this thread. But otherwise, you're freely admitting that not only is it unlikely to find a single blacksmith in Muldraugh (not to mention the high probability that they would be a zombie even if there was one at one point), it's statistically impossible. And if- as you say- you want it to only be a profession then this utterly defeats your point.

[Kapsar]

I fully understand how to refine iron.

The problem is I would never attempt to do so for multiple reasons

1 where the hell are you going to get the tools to refine iron? I don't think Muldraugh has a Blacksmiths R Us

2 WHO in Muldraugh would have the knowledge of smithing iron let alone have the tools to make different carbon steels

The problem is the fact the game would be a generic mine and build a super fortress of iron and steel, why? BECUASE IT'S FUN

You see, a lot of things added in PZ would be fun like a top hat wearing cyborg death Machine to guard my base. The problem with this logic is it being worth the Dev's time to make a game just for you because you said it was fun? Bottom line is you can say many things that should be added into PZ that is fun, the problem is without a good backing nobody is going to take you seriously

Personally I like the idea in PZ I'm not a super intelligent man with the Knowledge of everything. I'm an average stupid person surviving in a harsh world with the only intentions of doing everything possible to delay my inevitable death

I agree mining in PZ would be fun, however that doesn't mean it would be good idea. Don't let yourself down though! There's arcade like zombie games which allow you to mine and build your own base. Personally I don't think PZ is the type of game for this generic zombie surviving genre

Tl;DR Minnig and metallurgy is nothing short of a pipe dream but fishing is cool

-1

[Fj45]

Do not poke the Rathlord nest.

 

 

I fully understand how to refine iron.
The problem is I would never attempt to do so for multiple reasons
1 where the hell are you going to get the tools to refine iron? I don't think Muldraugh has a Blacksmiths R Us

2 WHO in Muldraugh would have the knowledge of smithing iron let alone have the tools to make different carbon steels
The problem is the fact the game would be a generic mine and build a super fortress of iron and steel, why? BECUASE IT'S FUN
You see, a lot of things added in PZ would be fun like a top hat wearing cyborg death Machine to guard my base. The problem with this logic is it being worth the Dev's time to make a game just for you because you said it was fun? Bottom line is you can say many things that should be added into PZ that is fun, the problem is without a good backing nobody is going to take you seriously
Personally I like the idea in PZ I'm not a super intelligent man with the Knowledge of everything. I'm an average stupid person surviving in a harsh world with the only intentions of doing everything possible to delay my inevitable death

I agree mining in PZ would be fun, however that doesn't mean it would be good idea. Don't let yourself down though! There's arcade like zombie games which allow you to mine and build your own base. Personally I don't think PZ is the type of game for this generic zombie surviving genre

Tl;DR Minnig and metallurgy is nothing short of a pipe dream but fishing is cool
-1

 

Already been said but sums up why smithing would never work.

[Realmkeeper]

Do not poke the Rathlord nest.

[...]

Already been said but sums up why smiting would never work.

Poke the Rathlord, and thee shall be smited.

 

Smiting will never work.

[Walther]

smite him, oh almighty smiter

[ExcentriCreation]

 

 

While its true that Smithing is a dying Trade/Art form its still taught as part of a Fabrication profession.... I have a damn fine pair of dividers in my toolbox that were half forged (shaped & hot riveted) & again building those was a prerequisite of me passing my course.

 

As was said in the other post "I know how" is not a valid reason for something being common knowledge.

 

You missed the point of that entirely..... Your argument about the number of practicing SMITHS is moot because FABRICATORS are taught how while they're going to Tradeshcool a couple of days a week during their apprenticeship. Yes I'm talking about ACTUAL Fabricators.... Tradesmen.... Its a fairly common profession too....

EDIT: Not intensive "smithing" training but we're taught the basics about shaping & heat treatment

 

I've got a Boral distributor & RussTech Inc. in Louisville.... So refractory cement is in the GENERAL area. Actual proof, FOR OR AGAINST, any closer than that is a BIG ask especially since its a fictional town BASED on a RL town.... That "Rail Depot" looks more like a Sale Yard to me

 

And you still refuse to acknowledge the point that there's no fucking point in going to all this trouble when you could find solutions without spending months preparing that works as well as if not better than your forging.

This is a little incomprehensible but based on your other posts... EDIT: Either I mis-read or you edited, either way.... meh

Quantity over Quality

After a few months/years the number of weapons will start to dwindle, if you've spent the majority of your combat skill points on blade, you may be happier with a number of crappy tomahawks than a frypan

Realistically speaking, & I say this under duress because I dislike Zombie Apocalypse hypotheticals, I would feel safer with a number of crappy tomahawks than a "good" weapon. What if I drop or my "good" weapon gets stuck, loosing my "good" weapon is a real loss, loosing one of many crappy tomahawks is VIRTUALLY not an issue because I know I can replace it.

 

Have the furnace argument if you want it THAT badly because with it goes your last point about realism.... I was shown how to make "tomahawk" heads out of railway spikes & an Oxy-Acetylene torch & there's no way that a town like that, with industry like that, wouldn't have COMMON fabricating tools.

 

As for what the devs have time for.... Is that really up to anyone but the devs? Hell when it comes right down to it this entire thread is arguing semantics.... How many of the recent Implementations were community based? That's not rhetorical, I don't think its many but correct me if I'm wrong....

 

[EnigmaGrey]

There's no discipline known as "fabricators" here -- do you mean tool and die makers, millwrights, machinists, sheet-metal workers? All of them learn how to weld and, to some extent, form metal using a welding torch, but I'm fairly confident none of these professions even touch on smelting metal outside of an academic, historical, explanation as to how the metal they work with comes into existance.

Of course, there are likely to be on-the-job training for the few steel mills that still exist in North America, not to mention metal recyclers.

Using an AO torch to rough-form metal is miles behind using said gases in a custom-made furnace, with a unique sand mold and all the points that it entails above to get anything more useful than a pretty decoration.

To work in the game, it'll either have to be the largest, multistage recipe we've ever had, or be so stupid simple as to have come out of MineCraft. All to . . . custom-mold tomahawks?