Don't add too many aspects to survival

[Kajin]

From what I umderstand, the current jobs are a low priority item and will be brought up to par at a later date when tjere are more features in the game to justify the changes.

Also, I'm really hoping you're not judging the whole balance of the game on one small part of it and have other reasons to have reached that decision.

I'd respond with lengthier posts but I'm currently on my cell phone so I'll wait til later when I'm home to continue

[silents429]

Eh.. I would take a crack at you, but I honestly don't feel like typing all of it, then making sure I typed correctly.

Your making a lot of assumptions and Rathlord is right, you have some failed misunderstanding of game design, and your going to be unwilling to change your point of view regardless of what we say.

PS. Whats this other game like Project Zomboid you say? It ain't Day Z.

[CliffExcellent]

Eh.. I would take a crack at you, but I honestly don't feel like typing all of it, then making sure I typed correctly.

Your making a lot of assumptions and Rathlord is right, you have some failed misunderstanding of game design, and your going to be unwilling to change your point of view regardless of what we say.

PS. Whats this other game like Project Zomboid you say? It ain't Day Z.

From the perspective of people who haven't played either of the two games, Day Z and Project Zomboid are very similar. The only difference is that one is 3D and multiplayer and the other is isometric and doesn't have multiplayer yet.

 

Then there's Dead State, State of Decay, The War Z and one other one that I can't remember the name of right now (I think 7 Days to Die might be the one I;m thinking of). And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty more that I haven't heard of.

 

Now, let's look at games like Minecraft: bugger all apart from Terrarria and some games that pretty much copied it.

 

How about some other popular indie games?

 

Games like FTL; Faster Than Light: Pretty much nothing.

 

Games like Papers, Please: Nothing.

 

Games like Hotline Miami: Nothing.

 

Games like The Stanley Parable: Nothing.

 

Pretty much all the most successful indie games are fresh and unique. Project Zomboid is not. Maybe it plays differently to those other games, but the basic idea is the same. From the view of someone who hasn't played the game, there is no reason for me to pick Project Zomboid over any of those other games.

 

And you can't just say "You don't understand how it works" and then not explain how it works. They've only got one or two people working on programming and almost every suggestion involves programming. You know what else the programmer has to do? Fix bugs and polish the game. Again, as evidenced by the fact that polish has not improved in the slightest in two years. Two years ago it was a simple game with a few rough edges, now it's probably the buggiest game I've ever played. That says to me that the developers might not be able to cope with the workload. The only response to that I;ve gotten is "Oh no they can you just don't get it".

 

You can't complain that I'm unwilling to change my view without actually trying to change my view.

[Gammlernoob]

 

Eh.. I would take a crack at you, but I honestly don't feel like typing all of it, then making sure I typed correctly.

Your making a lot of assumptions and Rathlord is right, you have some failed misunderstanding of game design, and your going to be unwilling to change your point of view regardless of what we say.

PS. Whats this other game like Project Zomboid you say? It ain't Day Z.

From the perspective of people who haven't played either of the two games, Day Z and Project Zomboid are very similar. The only difference is that one is 3D and multiplayer and the other is isometric and doesn't have multiplayer yet.

 

Then there's Dead State, State of Decay, The War Z and one other one that I can't remember the name of right now (I think 7 Days to Die might be the one I;m thinking of). And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty more that I haven't heard of.

 

Now, let's look at games like Minecraft: bugger all apart from Terrarria and some games that pretty much copied it.

 

How about some other popular indie games?

 

Games like FTL; Faster Than Light: Pretty much nothing.

 

Games like Papers, Please: Nothing.

 

Games like Hotline Miami: Nothing.

 

Games like The Stanley Parable: Nothing.

 

Pretty much all the most successful indie games are fresh and unique. Project Zomboid is not. Maybe it plays differently to those other games, but the basic idea is the same. From the view of someone who hasn't played the game, there is no reason for me to pick Project Zomboid over any of those other games.

 

And you can't just say "You don't understand how it works" and then not explain how it works. They've only got one or two people working on programming and almost every suggestion involves programming. You know what else the programmer has to do? Fix bugs and polish the game. Again, as evidenced by the fact that polish has not improved in the slightest in two years. Two years ago it was a simple game with a few rough edges, now it's probably the buggiest game I've ever played. That says to me that the developers might not be able to cope with the workload. The only response to that I;ve gotten is "Oh no they can you just don't get it".

 

You can't complain that I'm unwilling to change my view without actually trying to change my view.

 

Are you the same guy that posted on the "The Dead Linger" forums as an AAA guy who says their indie ideas all doesnt work ?!? ;D Just to get it right Dayz stresses on Multiplayer , looting and hunting other players and overall multiplayer , State of Decay : much focus on action and pretty much storydriven , 7 days to die: Minecraft with more zombies and guns. There is just basicly no game like PZ : Open World , many possibilitys of survival ( every house is useable as a base , farming etc, possibility to survive in a world that turns more and more broken and (later) joining npcs and unique storys ... ). There is just no game like it , and saying there are other zombie game is just not an argument. Its like saying every game with aliens or (insert enemy type here) is the same ! PZ has a community that supports the dreams of the devs. Sure , it´s a lot of work and it will take some time , but most of the customers know that. The buggy version is just a problem at the moment , in 2 weeks you can play the game pretty much just with minor bugs.

^ what you not asked for

The game sells well enough and the team works full time on the game , we don´t expect more. I am happy with the game as it is and moves forward.

[Rathlord]

You make some legitimate points there. I'm interesting in discussing more, but every letter I type on the phone brings me one step closer to insanity. I'll get back to you later if that's okay.

[CliffExcellent]

Are you the same guy that posted on the "The Dead Linger" forums as an AAA guy who says their indie ideas all doesnt work ?!? ;D Just to get it right Dayz stresses on Multiplayer , looting and hunting other players and overall multiplayer , State of Decay : much focus on action and pretty much storydriven , 7 days to die: Minecraft with more zombies and guns. There is just basicly no game like PZ : Open World , many possibilitys of survival ( every house is useable as a base , farming etc, possibility to survive in a world that turns more and more broken and (later) joining npcs and unique storys ... ). There is just no game like it , and saying there are other zombie game is just not an argument. Its like saying every game with aliens or (insert enemy type here) is the same ! PZ has a community that supports the dreams of the devs. Sure , it´s a lot of work and it will take some time , but most of the customers know that. The buggy version is just a problem at the moment , in 2 weeks you can play the game pretty much just with minor bugs.

^ what you not asked for

The game sells well enough and the team works full time on the game , we don´t expect more. I am happy with the game as it is and moves forward.

 

Saying that Project Zomboid isn't like Day Z is basically the same as saying that Fallout 1 is nothing like Fallout 3. Same setting, same basic goal: create a semi-realistic zombie survival game with a focus on surviving rather than combat (whether Day Z actually achieved that is debatable but I won't get into that here).

 

They are both in the same genre (survival) and have the same setting (zombie apocalypse). They may have slightly different methods but they're still similar, especially to someone just looking at the Steam page.

 

It's allowed to be similar to other games if it does it better than them.

 

"PZ has a community that supports the dreams of the devs."

 

By criticising them I AM supporting them. How the hell are they ever going to get better if all you do is blindly accept everything they do?

 

 

 

You make some legitimate points there. I'm interesting in discussing more, but every letter I type on the phone brings me one step closer to insanity. I'll get back to you later if that's okay.

 

That's fine, all I wanted was to discuss it. I mean, I could be completely wrong, this is just my opinion at the moment.

[silents429]

I am retiring from reading this post.
My doctor said its good to just walk away o3o

Have fun.

[GretSeat]

I'm pretty sure all of that can be added. I mean think of an actual zombie infestation or something of the similar sort: you first start off scavenging for food and a weapon. Then sure enough you slowly but surely build up your supply of items, and a safe house. Then, you realize you have enough food and water for a while.

 

Suddenly you need to expand, THEN you focus on build.

 

THEN you focus on defenses...

 

etc etc.

 

It's not like it's a game where new people go "HOW DO I BUILD HOUSE" instead you work from the ground up.

 

Building a house should be attempted WAYYYY later in the game. Weeks down the road to almost a month. Farming, Crops, Generators, Rain Barrels, etc. 

[Rathlord]

Well that is kind of the point of a suggestion forum. It's not that I'm unwilling to reconsider, it's that you haven't convinced me. I have seen no evidence that the devs are talented enough to balance all of these features while continuing to add new stuff. I have plenty of evidence to the contrary. I bought this game two years ago, and since then I have seen significant progress (although admittedly not as much as I'd expect in two years) in terms of features, but no progress whatsoever in terms of balance. 2 years ago, the professions were horribly unbalanced and there was no good reason to choose anything besides the construction worker. Today? Exactly the same professions, no progress whatsoever. Either the devs genuinely think the current professions are good or I'm right and they can't handle the work load. Not sure which is worse.

 

Everything you've said about having different parts of the dev team to work on different things applies to AAA studios, who also have problems with having too many features and not being able to balance. Ever heard of feature creep? It pretty much killed Duke Nukem Forever and it seems to be happening to Project Zomboid right now.

 

I'm sure this has been well trounced over, but a large part of why you haven't seen a lot of content released for a while was due to the unfortunate circumstances that lead to them losing a large part of their work (and equipment).

 

As far as balance goes, the game is intentionally not being balanced. Lemmy has said several times (and it's a pretty well-held tenet of alpha programming) that there's no point in balancing a game when everything you balance will likely be changed in the future anyways. I'm sure you're not interested (and don't need) to hear the lecture on alpha games, but the plan is to get all of the basic features functional and then in beta you worry about balancing.

 

Just for example, there's about another dozen professions partially in the game code unused right now. That's because they're more worried about the profession system working than the professions themselves; that comes in beta. Lemmy has even specifically addressed construction worker being best; they're well aware, it would just be silly to balance the 5 professions we have and then have it all be made worthless when the others get added in beta phase.

 

It's not a matter of them not being able to handle the work load; that's exactly how an alpha is meant  to work. I'm not saying the game shouldn't be criticized; it should, and all of the devs are great at accepting criticism and folding it into their design. But the point is that some of your criticism isn't helpful or accurate, such as that about balance.

 

Feature creep can devastate games, that's absolutely true. But the PZ devs have a clear plan that they consistently work towards. The suggestion forum is a place for people to throw out ideas, of which a minuscule, microscopic amount might someday be included in the game. I can assure you they don't just pile on every idea they see; most of what is in the "Commonly Suggested Suggestions" list as 'yes's' are things that the devs were planning on implementing from day one that people just happen to make threads about a lot, not because they just say yes to everything in this subforum.

 

The very condensed version is that I'm not sure you understand what alpha means in programming. I'm not trying to use that as a shield for criticism or unhappiness with the game; that's all valid criticism. What I am saying is that features aren't and shouldn't be balanced until the beta phase of the game. That's just how game design is.

[Fj45]

I am retiring from reading this post.

My doctor said its good to just walk away o3o

Have fun.

 

I'm in the same boat, any longer and I may just gouge my eyes out with a spoon.

[CliffExcellent]

 

Well that is kind of the point of a suggestion forum. It's not that I'm unwilling to reconsider, it's that you haven't convinced me. I have seen no evidence that the devs are talented enough to balance all of these features while continuing to add new stuff. I have plenty of evidence to the contrary. I bought this game two years ago, and since then I have seen significant progress (although admittedly not as much as I'd expect in two years) in terms of features, but no progress whatsoever in terms of balance. 2 years ago, the professions were horribly unbalanced and there was no good reason to choose anything besides the construction worker. Today? Exactly the same professions, no progress whatsoever. Either the devs genuinely think the current professions are good or I'm right and they can't handle the work load. Not sure which is worse.

 

Everything you've said about having different parts of the dev team to work on different things applies to AAA studios, who also have problems with having too many features and not being able to balance. Ever heard of feature creep? It pretty much killed Duke Nukem Forever and it seems to be happening to Project Zomboid right now.

 

I'm sure this has been well trounced over, but a large part of why you haven't seen a lot of content released for a while was due to the unfortunate circumstances that lead to them losing a large part of their work (and equipment).

 

As far as balance goes, the game is intentionally not being balanced. Lemmy has said several times (and it's a pretty well-held tenet of alpha programming) that there's no point in balancing a game when everything you balance will likely be changed in the future anyways. I'm sure you're not interested (and don't need) to hear the lecture on alpha games, but the plan is to get all of the basic features functional and then in beta you worry about balancing.

 

Just for example, there's about another dozen professions partially in the game code unused right now. That's because they're more worried about the profession system working than the professions themselves; that comes in beta. Lemmy has even specifically addressed construction worker being best; they're well aware, it would just be silly to balance the 5 professions we have and then have it all be made worthless when the others get added in beta phase.

 

It's not a matter of them not being able to handle the work load; that's exactly how an alpha is meant  to work. I'm not saying the game shouldn't be criticized; it should, and all of the devs are great at accepting criticism and folding it into their design. But the point is that some of your criticism isn't helpful or accurate, such as that about balance.

 

Feature creep can devastate games, that's absolutely true. But the PZ devs have a clear plan that they consistently work towards. The suggestion forum is a place for people to throw out ideas, of which a minuscule, microscopic amount might someday be included in the game. I can assure you they don't just pile on every idea they see; most of what is in the "Commonly Suggested Suggestions" list as 'yes's' are things that the devs were planning on implementing from day one that people just happen to make threads about a lot, not because they just say yes to everything in this subforum.

 

The very condensed version is that I'm not sure you understand what alpha means in programming. I'm not trying to use that as a shield for criticism or unhappiness with the game; that's all valid criticism. What I am saying is that features aren't and shouldn't be balanced until the beta phase of the game. That's just how game design is.

 

Yeah I suppose most of that is pretty fair. I'd still argue that they shouldn't get too carried away with adding new features, most of which are kind of unnecessary. And I'd still much rather have a more focused game than just cramming in as many features as they can think of. A game can either have lots of varied features and multiple aspects to gameplay, or it can focus on the most important parts and make them really good. Name any game that tries to juggle lots of different gameplay types and you will not be able to find a single part of that game that hasn't been done better before.

 

Compare Arkham Asylum to Assassin's Creed. Arkham focuses almost entirely on combat and stealth, and has some of the best combat and stealth gameplay I've ever seen. Assassin's Creed has both of those things along with a massive sandbox and plenty of other stuff, and as a result the combat and stealth are just mediocre. I'd argue that Arkham Asylum is the better game overall.

 

I think Zomboid can have either really good, well made survival mechanics, or it can add all of these suggestions. Not both.

 

I mean, it could very well have a load of different perfectly balanced, bug-free features, but it doesn't seem very like and I imagine it would be very difficult to pull off.

[EnigmaGrey]

Don't listen to them!

Add all the survival aspects! 

[VamyreLord]

In PZ I think you need to focus on all those survival aspects. Because it depends on different mindsets and playstyles when approaching it. Those survival aspects really make it a survival game first where you don't need to focus on single goal to survive.

[Rathlord]

I don't think anyone is suggesting everything in the suggestions forum should be added to the game. Only the creme of the crop gets even remotely considered.

[silents429]

Im not sure why both can't apply to this game though, the indie stone has no dead line to be finished by they can take there time if needed. Minecraft is still being updated with game changers and it was technically released in like 2011? And no one complains about that.

Why is PZ incapable of having both when time is not an issue like it is for triple A games?

[CliffExcellent]

Im not sure why both can't apply to this game though, the indie stone has no dead line to be finished by they can take there time if needed. Minecraft is still being updated with game changers and it was technically released in like 2011? And no one complains about that.

Why is PZ incapable of having both when time is not an issue like it is for triple A games?

Well Minecraft is the kind of game where you can just add in new stuff without worrying about balance and all that. With Project Zomboid this would mean they have to keep going back and redoing everything. I'd rather they just draw a line under it at some point before it becomes a mess.

[Rathlord]

Luckily that is the idea Cliff! For now they're just adding features as simple proof of concept. Once the game reaches a beta phase, it will be "feature locked" for the most part, and then the devs will focus on fully fleshing out, balancing, and bug fixing the features.

I haven't heard the devs express this exactly, but in general that's how alpha-beta-release systems work and the devs have performed admirably within this framework so far.

[CliffExcellent]

Luckily that is the idea Cliff! For now they're just adding features as simple proof of concept. Once the game reaches a beta phase, it will be "feature locked" for the most part, and then the devs will focus on fully fleshing out, balancing, and bug fixing the features.

I haven't heard the devs express this exactly, but in general that's how alpha-beta-release systems work and the devs have performed admirably within this framework so far.

Sounds good. Also sounds like it'll be a long time until this game is finished which is a shame really.

[killwill]

I dont think you should play sims lol.... Having to go to the toilet and clean but isent sims one the best selling pc games? .... Just thinking now... add zombies to sims 3 and its kinda like project Zomboid lol

[Rathlord]

Going to the bathroom is something that will never be added to PZ.

[silents429]

Thank goodness too.

[Kajin]

I've always found it weird that the kid friendly game like The Sims is okay with having poop in the game, but R rated games like Project Zomboid or dwarf fortress refuse to have it.

[Rathlord]

It's not that PZ refuses for any rating or maturity standpoint; it's just that it's too micromanage-y and adds literally no gameplay value.

[Kajin]

It's not that. It's just that I was talking to a fellow Dwarf Fortress player a while back and when the subject of a toilet system in the game came up he reacted with horror. And he'd just finished making soap out of puppies. I don't want using the toilet added anymore than you guys do, I'm just surprised when I see someone acting with such disgust at the very thought of it.

 

Given that the only two games I see this sort of attitude in are the somewhat dark and troubled "as close to realistic as possible" games like PZ and DF while the kid friendly Sims games have it up on full display, it ends up creating a bit of dissonance in my brain.

[EnigmaGrey]

It's not that. It's just that I was talking to a fellow Dwarf Fortress player a while back and when the subject of a toilet system in the game came up he reacted with horror. And he'd just finished making soap out of puppies. I don't want using the toilet added anymore than you guys do, I'm just surprised when I see someone acting with such disgust at the very thought of it.

 

Given that the only two games I see this sort of attitude in are the somewhat dark and troubled "as close to realistic as possible" games like PZ and DF while the kid friendly Sims games have it up on full display, it ends up creating a bit of dissonance in my brain.

Virtual fishbowl (The Sims) verses manually controlled player character (Zomboid).