Electricity Alternative energy

[J0hnm13]

While we're discussing the topic of realism, do remember the delicate balance between Authenticity and Gameplay. Realistically, you wouldn't be able to just plug in any random generator in any random room to power the entire house, even with the instruction manual. Realistically, you need more than 2 planks of wood to make a crate. Realistically, rain water wouldn't collect at all as fast as it does. 

 

I personally just ignore generators since they have a finite amount of fuel, and therefore are just as limited as regular electricity. I'd really like to see a way to maintain power at home. Generators are temporary, though they are a nice proof of concept that you can reactivate power to any individual house in the game's coding, so there's room to build on that. I think a basic system like 1 solar panel per room in the house would be more than balanced, depending on the availability and fragility of said panels.. Make 'em have to be put on stands so you gotta fence em in or put 'em on a flat roof to use.

[Nightmaster]

While we're discussing the topic of realism, do remember the delicate balance between Authenticity and Gameplay. Realistically, you wouldn't be able to just plug in any random generator in any random room to power the entire house, even with the instruction manual. Realistically, you need more than 2 planks of wood to make a crate. Realistically, rain water wouldn't collect at all as fast as it does. 

 

I personally just ignore generators since they have a finite amount of fuel, and therefore are just as limited as regular electricity. I'd really like to see a way to maintain power at home. Generators are temporary, though they are a nice proof of concept that you can reactivate power to any individual house in the game's coding, so there's room to build on that. I think a basic system like 1 solar panel per room in the house would be more than balanced, depending on the availability and fragility of said panels.. Make 'em have to be put on stands so you gotta fence em in or put 'em on a flat roof to use.

And at the same time the devs are puting a good deal of effort to be as much realistic as possible within the limitations of the engine and gameplay.

 

That said, the only problem with generators is fuel.

 

If you have fuel or if you can "make" the fuel that would not be a issue.

 

The solution for generators would be for the player to be able to make fuel for it. In this case Alchool.

 

Alchool based generators exist but they are a minority in number if compared to GAS or Diesel models.

 

An generator that runs on achool would be a uncommom (if not rare) item to find in the countryside america of the 80's or early 90's.

[King jjwpenguin]

 

While we're discussing the topic of realism, do remember the delicate balance between Authenticity and Gameplay. Realistically, you wouldn't be able to just plug in any random generator in any random room to power the entire house, even with the instruction manual. Realistically, you need more than 2 planks of wood to make a crate. Realistically, rain water wouldn't collect at all as fast as it does. 

 

I personally just ignore generators since they have a finite amount of fuel, and therefore are just as limited as regular electricity. I'd really like to see a way to maintain power at home. Generators are temporary, though they are a nice proof of concept that you can reactivate power to any individual house in the game's coding, so there's room to build on that. I think a basic system like 1 solar panel per room in the house would be more than balanced, depending on the availability and fragility of said panels.. Make 'em have to be put on stands so you gotta fence em in or put 'em on a flat roof to use.

And at the same time the devs are puting a good deal of effort to be as much realistic as possible within the limitations of the engine and gameplay.

 

That said, the only problem with generators is fuel.

 

If you have fuel or if you can "make" the fuel that would not be a issue.

 

The solution for generators would be for the player to be able to make fuel for it. In this case Alchool.

 

Alchool based generators exist but they are a minority in number if compared to GAS or Diesel models.

 

An generator that runs on achool would be a uncommom (if not rare) item to find in the countryside america of the 80's or early 90's.

 

still, an idea.

[Asrayl]

I think people vastly over-estimate the effectiveness of solar panels. My standard 4x2 panels that I have produce 100watts/hr at peak performance (perfectly angled with no dust on the surface, and no clouds in the sky or haze).

 

My 'Energy Star' refrigerator uses 5.2 amps at 115v AC. So thats 598watts/hr. I need 6 panels running at absolute peak performance to power my fridge for an hour. Light bulbs are easy, they are measured in watts. I would say a 60 watt bulb was pretty standard before CFL or LEDs emerged.

 

Mind you this is based on 2015 efficiency. Solar panels were no where near as efficient in 1993, nor were home appliances.

 

I'm not saying its not possible, but you're gonna need a pretty impressive solar array and battery bank to run your home in PZ on solar.

 

Also for any of these suggested systems (solar, wind/water mill) you are going to need a charge controller (so you don't fry your batteries), an impressive battery bank, and a DC inverter with an appropriate wattage output to power your AC appliances/devices.

 

Factor in the default year is 1993, I doubt the average joe would have a charge controller or DC inverter laying around, or even know what one looks like.

 

I'm not saying it isn't possible. After all, I have a solar system at home that I use to charge all my peripherals (cell phones, tablets, batteries for power tools, etc) and I am not a professional electrician. But, I had the advantage of the internet.

 

Also where are you going to find solar panels in 1993? Other than a highway equipment depot, I am at a loss for anywhere you would likely find them at in KY in 1993.

 

EDIT:

 

Just wanted to add to this.

 

If you really wanted to run your fridge 24hrs a day you need to estimate what your daily sun exposure would be. I did a quick Google and found that Louisville, KY gets just about 7 hours of sunlight a day on average over the entire year. Assuming I am using my modern Energy Star rated fridge that requires about 600watts/hr, I would need 14,400 watts (14.4kw) to run it each day. I have on average 7 hours a day to produce this electricity. So I would need to produce about 2,057 watts/hr. That would require about 21 100watt (modern home use/retail) solar panels.

 

That's a big solar array you need just to run your fridge.

 

You could make the argument that you don't need to have the fridge on for 24hrs a day and you could turn it off for a few hours each day as long as you didn't open it. You would still need a lot of cells to make it work though.

 

Its plausible, but not very realistic, and thats at today's efficiency levels.

... Your math is flawed. Your refrigerator isn't running all the time. Unless you leave the door open, or it's broken. Or some other craziness. The compressor runs until the refrigerator reaches a pre-determined [and usually adjustable] temperature. Then it shuts off until the interior warms beyond a certain point. If you keep your refrigerator closed, in a cool space, it won't run as much. Thus not using as much power. I'd say it was doubtful that your refrigerator was running even 1/3 the time. This also applies to other household appliances. Your microwave may suck a lot of wattage when it's running, but if it's only running for fifteen minutes per day?

[CaptKaspar]

I think people vastly over-estimate the effectiveness of solar panels. My standard 4x2 panels that I have produce 100watts/hr at peak performance (perfectly angled with no dust on the surface, and no clouds in the sky or haze).

My 'Energy Star' refrigerator uses 5.2 amps at 115v AC. So thats 598watts/hr. I need 6 panels running at absolute peak performance to power my fridge for an hour. Light bulbs are easy, they are measured in watts. I would say a 60 watt bulb was pretty standard before CFL or LEDs emerged.

Mind you this is based on 2015 efficiency. Solar panels were no where near as efficient in 1993, nor were home appliances.

I'm not saying its not possible, but you're gonna need a pretty impressive solar array and battery bank to run your home in PZ on solar.

Also for any of these suggested systems (solar, wind/water mill) you are going to need a charge controller (so you don't fry your batteries), an impressive battery bank, and a DC inverter with an appropriate wattage output to power your AC appliances/devices.

Factor in the default year is 1993, I doubt the average joe would have a charge controller or DC inverter laying around, or even know what one looks like.

I'm not saying it isn't possible. After all, I have a solar system at home that I use to charge all my peripherals (cell phones, tablets, batteries for power tools, etc) and I am not a professional electrician. But, I had the advantage of the internet.

Also where are you going to find solar panels in 1993? Other than a highway equipment depot, I am at a loss for anywhere you would likely find them at in KY in 1993.

EDIT:

Just wanted to add to this.

If you really wanted to run your fridge 24hrs a day you need to estimate what your daily sun exposure would be. I did a quick Google and found that Louisville, KY gets just about 7 hours of sunlight a day on average over the entire year. Assuming I am using my modern Energy Star rated fridge that requires about 600watts/hr, I would need 14,400 watts (14.4kw) to run it each day. I have on average 7 hours a day to produce this electricity. So I would need to produce about 2,057 watts/hr. That would require about 21 100watt (modern home use/retail) solar panels.

That's a big solar array you need just to run your fridge.

You could make the argument that you don't need to have the fridge on for 24hrs a day and you could turn it off for a few hours each day as long as you didn't open it. You would still need a lot of cells to make it work though.

Its plausible, but not very realistic, and thats at today's efficiency levels.

... Your math is flawed. Your refrigerator isn't running all the time. Unless you leave the door open, or it's broken. Or some other craziness. The compressor runs until the refrigerator reaches a pre-determined [and usually adjustable] temperature. Then it shuts off until the interior warms beyond a certain point. If you keep your refrigerator closed, in a cool space, it won't run as much. Thus not using as much power. I'd say it was doubtful that your refrigerator was running even 1/3 the time. This also applies to other household appliances. Your microwave may suck a lot of wattage when it's running, but if it's only running for fifteen minutes per day?

Assuming you're right; you would still need 7 panels.

[Asrayl]

 

 

Stuff.

Other stuff.

Assuming you're right; you would still need 7 panels.

 

I am. Seven is a lot easier to put together than 21. That aside, there are a number of other applications that are much more readily attainable, such as the operation of lights, ham radios, and small electronics/tools. It's an interesting data set as presented but I don't think it makes a sound argument against solar. 

[Nightmaster]

Just to add spice in this discussion, by 1993 the maximum efficiency of solar panels was around 16%.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_solar_cells

[CaptKaspar]

Just to add spice in this discussion, by 1993 the maximum efficiency of solar panels was around 16%.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_solar_cells

 

That's the maximum efficiency of a panel that was researched and developed at a university. That is not the efficiency of a commercially available panel.

 

Modern solar cells can reach over 44%, but what is commercially available is between 10-18%. That's today's standards.

[CaptKaspar]

 

 

 

Stuff.

Other stuff.

Assuming you're right; you would still need 7 panels.

 

I am. Seven is a lot easier to put together than 21. That aside, there are a number of other applications that are much more readily attainable, such as the operation of lights, ham radios, and small electronics/tools. It's an interesting data set as presented but I don't think it makes a sound argument against solar. 

 

 

There are currently only three uses for electricity in Zomboid; refrigerators, lights, and microwaves. Maybe we will get rechargeable batteries for walkie talkies once build 33 hits and the ability to run tv's/radios/microwaves off of batteries (but we'll need DC inverters).

 

I get what you're saying to use solar for small electronics, I have a system at my home specifically for this use, but there isn't this need or use in PZ, yet.

 

I still haven't heard a good explanation as to where anyone expects to find solar panels in 1993 Kentucky. In the above linked Wikipedia article, there is a graph that shows that 2015 is expected to produce about 2,300 times more solar energy world-wide than in 1993. A rural part of KY that gets on average 7 hours of daylight a day was probably not an early adopter of the technology since it costed an estimated $8/watt in 1993 or about 27 times more expensive than today (again referencing the same Wiki article). It was not economical for homes, businesses, or government agencies to use them. If anyone can find any references contrary to this, I would love to see them.

 

The best bet, I think, would have been a highway equipment depot that may have had some solar panels for road signs. But, there isn't one of those on the map, so where else might we find them? Construction sites would use gas powered generators.

 

There were probably more tanks and armored vehicles in the area around Muldraugh, KY (because of Fort Knox) than there were solar cells. So if solar panels are plausible, I want tanks too.

[MrTrololo]

What d'you say for windmill as energy generator?

[Gaffa Tape Warrior]

What d'you say for windmill as energy generator?

I think windmills are for grinding corn. A mill that uses wind. But yes, having wind turbines would be a very good idea. You can use them to recharge your walkie talkies. I remember seeing on the news that someone in Africa accessed the internet and found it amazing what he could learn, and made a wind turbine using PVC which he heated over a fire for the blades, and the people nearby use it to recharge their mobile telephones (because they've not got landlines).

[CaptKaspar]

What d'you say for windmill as energy generator?

 

I think its the more plausible than solar for 1993.

 

All you need to do to create a charge is to spin an electric motor in the opposite direction than it normally spins. A shaft driven by a windmill and geared properly would do it with some mechanical know how. But by how much? It would take some pretty complex gearing to get the ratio increased enough to be spinning the electric motor fast enough to generate any real wattage. Doable though.

 

Ideally you would want identical airfoils as well for blades. If one has a different shape than the others then there will be vibrations created.The faster the windmill spins the worse the vibrations will get. If the RPM gets too high it could destroy the windmill, but obviously you want the RPM as high as possible to generate the most wattage. So, ideally, you want identical (or as close to it as possible) airfoils for the blades. Without machinery, I would go with a mold.

 

Obviously still need a DC inverter to run AC items off a battery, but a windmill for charging batteries is plausible. It is probably not outside the abilities of a highly skilled carpenter/machinist with a bit of electrical know how.

 

An alternator from a car would probably be pretty useful for this.

[CaptKaspar]

I think a reasonable solution to this energy issue is to give us a way to get gas from the gas station tanks after the power goes out.

 

I would rather be able to turn the pumps back on with a generator than siphon gas from the tanks. I would want to limit the tanks exposure to open air. This would help preserve its volatility over time. Yeah gas goes bad after 6 months to a year in a car or gas container, but it can stay volatile much longer if stored properly in a well designed fuel tank. Much longer than most people are going to survive.

 

Just make there be a ton of gas in the tanks at the gas stations (or an option for sandbox or servers), but it can only be accessed if you can get the power on for the pumps. It would make for a fun mission! You would need to run a noisy generator at the gas station attracting zombies to your efforts! Or you could build Fuel City like in Mad Max around the gas pumps controlling it as a resource in MP!

 

Would be more fun than solar or windmills and be more realistic for 1993 IMO.

[Nightmaster]

Just as I said very earlier in this thread, wind turbines are very old tech. The only inovations are in the materials used to construct and maintaing one.

 

That said, the real problems with wind turbines is that they cant be placed anywhere. You need a good location with constant strong winds to make the wind turbine effective. To date, the best locations for wind turbines world over are near the coastlines.

 

I dont live in USA nor Kentucky so I dont know if there's such good spots inland.

[CaptKaspar]

Just as I said very earlier in this thread, wind turbines are very old tech. The only inovations are in the materials used to construct and maintaing one.

 

That said, the real problems with wind turbines is that they cant be placed anywhere. You need a good location with constant strong winds to make the wind turbine effective. To date, the best locations for wind turbines world over are near the coastlines.

 

I dont live in USA nor Kentucky so I dont know if there's such good spots inland.

 

Good point.

 

Currently there isn't even wind in the game, so would wind turbines just create a random amount of energy each day?

 

I think adding wind into the game would be cool for effecting sounds and smells though! Windows and doors left open could bang in the wind attracting zombies, the gusts could hide other sounds, smells could travel greater distances, etc. Visually it would also be cool to see trees swaying and smoke being blown about by the wind. Fire spreading too!

[Nightmaster]

 

Just as I said very earlier in this thread, wind turbines are very old tech. The only inovations are in the materials used to construct and maintaing one.

 

That said, the real problems with wind turbines is that they cant be placed anywhere. You need a good location with constant strong winds to make the wind turbine effective. To date, the best locations for wind turbines world over are near the coastlines.

 

I dont live in USA nor Kentucky so I dont know if there's such good spots inland.

 

Good point.

 

Currently there isn't even wind in the game, so would wind turbines just create a random amount of energy each day?

 

I think adding wind into the game would be cool for effecting sounds and smells though! Windows and doors left open could bang in the wind attracting zombies, the gusts could hide other sounds, smells could travel greater distances, etc. Visually it would also be cool to see trees swaying and smoke being blown about by the wind. Fire spreading too!

 

 

Winds could be implemented in the same way as sound events. RNG dictates if wind occur or not, how strong, direction and duration. From there all manner of mechanics could be implemented that use that special event.

 

Best use for wind turbines in a setting like PZ is to recharge car batteries that then can be used to power light or other short duration devices (because they dont have enought capacity to power a fridge). For the generation of power strong enough to power fridges and other things, the best bet is on early 19th century hydroelectric turbine designs.

 

There's a waterfall between Muldraugh and Westpoint (Tioga waterfall) that one could adapt for that function. Its a small waterfall but it have the right height to be used to turn a wooden weel constantly so that one could (with the right knowledge) construct a turbine to generate electricty.

 

Examples of designs:

 

 

 

 

Tioga Falls

 

 

 

And its location (google maps):

 

https://www.google.com.br/maps/dir//Tioga+Creek/@37.9664223,-86.0518968,17938m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x8869210eeebb9f07:0x82d4a9bb70df7af2!2m2!1d-85.9780791!2d37.9664454

[Renat546]

The campaign much likes my idea)

Thank you

[Gaffa Tape Warrior]

Zombies in something like a giant hamster wheel.

[BetaSpectre]

Zombies can be herded rather easily, but I don't think they'd be useful for energy production unless you put them in a big steam generating oven.

 

People have been able to generate electricity by burning tires, coal, and basically anything that burns. All you need is something that can spin, and two magnets.

 

Now IMO the real challenge is energy storing, batteries don't last more than a few years even if you could recharge them. And I don't know if your average Joe could recharge them without something bad happening.

[Nightmaster]

Zombies can be herded rather easily, but I don't think they'd be useful for energy production unless you put them in a big steam generating oven.

 

People have been able to generate electricity by burning tires, coal, and basically anything that burns. All you need is something that can spin, and two magnets.

 

Now IMO the real challenge is energy storing, batteries don't last more than a few years even if you could recharge them. And I don't know if your average Joe could recharge them without something bad happening.

No the average joe cannot recharge chemical batteries without dire consequences, but they can create a continuous flux of power with a simple hydroelectric power plant like the ones from the 19th century.

 

After you attain self-sufficency in electric power (for basic things like fridges and a radio) all else becomes quite easy.

[BetaSpectre]

 

Zombies can be herded rather easily, but I don't think they'd be useful for energy production unless you put them in a big steam generating oven.

 

People have been able to generate electricity by burning tires, coal, and basically anything that burns. All you need is something that can spin, and two magnets.

 

Now IMO the real challenge is energy storing, batteries don't last more than a few years even if you could recharge them. And I don't know if your average Joe could recharge them without something bad happening.

No the average joe cannot recharge chemical batteries without dire consequences, but they can create a continuous flux of power with a simple hydroelectric power plant like the ones from the 19th century.

 

After you attain self-sufficency in electric power (for basic things like fridges and a radio) all else becomes quite easy.

 

That's true, you don't need to store power if you've got enough of it. Would there be hydro power in game though? I don't think the water wheels could be crafted large enough, and wind isn't that reliable. Then again even if there isn't constant power 24/7 having it on sometimes is better than none at all. Unless there's a huge stock of fuel laying about for wood/diesal engines.

[Nightmaster]

I dont know if there will be that option in the game, I just hope it does when it reachs 1.0 . It will be a good reason for the electrician/engineer professions to exist. As for the wheels being large enough its a matter for the crafting skill.

 

All the other elements for a archaic hydroelectric power plant exist in RL in the area selected for the game. Its just a matter of allowing it as a option or not to the players.