Better and more inclusive character creation

[Star Shepherd]

Hello everyone!

 

I want to start this post by saying Project Zomboid is one of my favorite games of all times. I also love supporting indie projects like this with a passionate team behind and because even if it's still in development it offers an incredible quality and more playability than most EA games out there, I'll support it all the way.

 

Now, that said, there is something that as an intersex person and physically androgynous AFAB has been bothering me quite a lot: the binary choice in character creation. This is an issue in the vast majority of games, I'm aware, and realistically speaking it doesn't make much sense, and I know how you guys care about realism. My suggestion could help you improve character creation significantly and in a way that isn't that hard to implement too.

 

I'm a roleplayer so I wouldn't play a non-binary character in 1993 Kentucky anyway, it wouldn't make sense. By that I mean my characters are non-binary, for sure, but the word for it and use of gender neutral pronouns wasn't a thing back then so this isn't what I am asking for since we don't have the use of pronouns in this game at all (up untile NPCs get implemented at least). If you want to keep the initial binary choice for the pronouns in the future, for the dialogues with the NPC, I think it's no problem and is realistic considering the setting.

 

The only change I'd like isn't about gender but body variations and natural diversity. That's why I'd ask is for both M and F characters be able to chose between three body types (the initial two and one maybe a bit in between, slim like the F model but less curvy), and a toggle on both facial hair growth and boobs. Just that.

 

With that in the game, I'll finally be able to play a character that is like me and I don't get uncomfortable playing a character with boobs but don't have to get the whole ma beard too. I have a beard but relatively smaller to what ends up being in the game when it is overgrown. If you can add between two options of facial/body hairiness too there, that would just be perfect.

 

So for clarity, here is the suggestion summarized in order of importance :

◼️ Facial hair toggle for both M and F characters

◼️ Breast toggle on/off for F characters

◼️ 3 body types for each "gender" : 1 that is the current male body type, 1 that is the current female body type, 1 that would be in-between

◼️ 2 different hairiness levels for facial hair

 

Thank you for the time you took reading my suggestion. Have a great day and keep up the good work!

Edited September 15, 2023 by Star Shepherd

[Abee]

4 hours ago, Star Shepherd said:

Hello everyone!

 

I want to start this post by saying Project Zomboid is one of my favorite games of all times. I also love supporting indie projects like this with a passionate team behind and because even if it's still in development it offers an incredible quality and more playability than most EA games out there, I'll support it all the way.

 

Now, that said, there is something that as an intersex person and physically androgynous AFAB has been bothering me quite a lot: the binary choice in character creation. This is an issue in the vast majority of games, I'm aware, and realistically speaking it doesn't make much sense, and I know how you guys care about realism. My suggestion could help you improve character creation significantly and in a way that isn't that hard to implement too.

 

I'm a roleplayer so I wouldn't play a non-binary character in 1993 Kentucky anyway, it wouldn't make sense. By that I mean my characters are non-binary, for sure, but the word for it and use of gender neutral pronouns wasn't a thing back then so this isn't what I am asking for since we don't have the use of pronouns in this game at all (up untile NPCs get implemented at least). If you want to keep the initial binary choice for the pronouns in the future, for the dialogues with the NPC, I think it's no problem and is realistic considering the setting.

 

The only change I'd like isn't about gender but body variations and natural diversity. That's why I'd ask is for both M and F characters be able to chose between three body types (the initial two and one maybe a bit in between, slim like the F model but less curvy), and a toggle on both facial hair growth and boobs. Just that.

 

With that in the game, I'll finally be able to play a character that is like me and I don't get uncomfortable playing a character with boobs but don't have to get the whole ma beard too. I have a beard but relatively smaller to what ends up being in the game when it is overgrown. If you can add between two options of facial/body hairiness too there, that would just be perfect.

 

So for clarity, here is the suggestion summarized in order of importance :

◼️ Facial hair toggle for both M and F characters

◼️ Breast toggle on/off for F characters

◼️ 3 body types for each "gender" : 1 that is the current male body type, 1 that is the current female body type, 1 that would be in-between

◼️ 2 different hairiness levels for facial hair

 

Thank you for the time you took reading my suggestion. Have a great day and keep up the good work!

 

so you wanna have gay sorvivor ? with huge boobs and small Penis . ? do you think this is normal ? 
i mean the normal thing is male and female 

so  please stop it 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Abee

[Star Shepherd]

40 minutes ago, Abee said:

 

so you wanna have gay sorvivor ? with huge boobs and small Penis . ? do you think this is normal ? 
i mean the normal thing is male and female 

so  please stop it 

You absolutely did NOT read my post, like... at all! 😶

 

And please, seek help, from the way you're reacting, you seem to desperately need it. 🥺

 

To clarify:

▶️ I never talked about sexuality (and since I'm asexual, I literally don't care about it make). 

▶️ I don't ask for nude characters although balancing it for realism would be nice so that having the underwear items in the game make sense since as of now our character has underwear that can't be taken off and if wearing some of our choice it will overheated our character when worn).

▶️ Intersex is NOT non-binary. Most intersex people are men and women, I just happen to be agender (so non-binary). So yes, some people assigned "female" at birth sometimes have no boobs and a beard (my case). Some people assigned "male" at birth don't get a lot of facial hair (also the case for many East Asians btw) and sometimes have feminine features and boobs.

 

Allow me to educate yourself. 🧑‍🏫

 

Intersex people  are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that, according to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, "do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies".

 

That's it. It's not about gender identity, it about natural variations in our body.

 

We are about 1,7% of the world which is as much as redheads, and we often go through social and medical abuse, often since birth and during puberty, with non-consented surgeries and HRT, you know the ones that are refused to trans people who need it? There is no surgery on trans kids but they are on us, intersex people, sometimes as soon as we are born and for no reason other than "but society has those two very restrictive boxes with a list of criteria!".

 

So yes, please calm down and get help as you are obviously distressed for a reason (trauma?). 

 

All my love to all the gays who got somehow attacked even though I was in no way talking (homo) sexuality. Stay fabulous! 

[Abee]

3 minutes ago, Star Shepherd said:

You absolutely did NOT read my post, like... at all! 😶

 

And please, seek help, from the way you're reacting, you seem to desperately need it. 🥺

 

To clarify:

▶️ I never talked about sexuality (and since I'm asexual, I literally don't care about it make). 

▶️ I don't ask for nude characters although balancing it for realism would be nice so that having the underwear items in the game make sense since as of now our character has underwear that can't be taken off and if wearing some of our choice it will overheated our character when worn).

▶️ Intersex is NOT non-binary. Most intersex people are men and women, I just happen to be agender (so non-binary). So yes, some people assigned "female" at birth sometimes have no boobs and a beard (my case). Some people assigned "male" at birth don't get a lot of facial hair (also the case for many East Asians btw) and sometimes have feminine features and boobs.

 

Allow me to educate yourself. 🧑‍🏫

 

Intersex people  are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that, according to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, "do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies".

 

That's it. It's not about gender identity, it about natural variations in our body.

 

We are about 1,7% of the world which is as much as redheads, and we often go through social and medical abuse, often since birth and during puberty, with non-consented surgeries and HRT, you know the ones that are refused to trans people who need it? There is no surgery on trans kids but they are on us, intersex people, sometimes as soon as we are born and for no reason other than "but society has those two very restrictive boxes with a list of criteria!".

 

So yes, please calm down and get help as you are obviously distressed for a reason (trauma?). 

 

All my love to all the gays who got somehow attacked even though I was in no way talking (homo) sexuality. Stay fabulous! 

 

we dont need that shit in the game please 

we are normal 

if u r not its not my problom 

[Star Shepherd]

1 minute ago, Abee said:

 

we dont need that shit in the game please 

we are normal 

if u r not its not my problom 

Minorities (albinos people, color-blind people, autistic people, left-handed people, etc.) are just as valid as you are.

 

Project Zomboid allows you to play as deaf and hard of hearing, also minorities, and you do not complain about that.

 

We are not abnormal, we are not mutants, monsters or freaks, we are just people, human beings, as you are, and just as you do we should be able to create a character that look like us.

 

Allowing this would educate people and prevent them from believing in a very misguided way we are errors of nature when we are just a proof of nature's incredible beauty in diversity.

 

Having this wouldn't prevent you to play the way you want to play, just like accessibility features that allow disabled people to play video games are not preventing you from playing the way you want. So what are you even complaining about?

[Abee]

4 minutes ago, Star Shepherd said:

Minorities (albinos people, color-blind people, autistic people, left-handed people, etc.) are just as valid as you are.

 

Project Zomboid allows you to play as deaf and hard of hearing, also minorities, and you do not complain about that.

 

We are not abnormal, we are not mutants, monsters or freaks, we are just people, human beings, as you are, and just as you do we should be able to create a character that look like us.

 

Allowing this would educate people and prevent them from believing in a very misguided way we are errors of nature when we are just a proof of nature's incredible beauty in diversity.

 

Having this wouldn't prevent you to play the way you want to play, just like accessibility features that allow disabled people to play video games are not preventing you from playing the way you want. So what are you even complaining about?

 

 

iam ok with all these types 

Minorities (albinos people, color-blind people, autistic people, left-handed people, etc.) 

but iam not ok if some guy who want be girl and taking dick in his ass want to make some weird demands in the game 

we have normalcheldren playing here for fuck sake 

[EnigmaGrey]

Abee has been permanently banned. We do not support transphobia in our community.

 

As to the suggestion, it's just down to practical limits to the base game, unfortunately It'd mean probably 2-3x the art and animation assets to pull off, so this level of detail is beyond us for the moment, but this could change in the future.

 

Note that many of the male haircuts do work with the female mesh and vice-versa,  albeit only stubble is interchangeable between them currently. This may change in the future.

[Star Shepherd]

3 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Abee has been permanently banned. We do not support transphobia in our community.

 

As to the suggestion, it's just down to practical limits to the base game, unfortunately It'd mean probably 2-3x the art and animation assets to pull off, so this level of detail is beyond us for the moment, but this could change in the future.

 

Note that many of the male haircuts do work with the female mesh and vice-versa,  albeit only stubble is interchangeable between them currently. This may change in the future.

For the body types themselves, for sure, I know it would require some work, and to add the toggle on the female body type for the boobs mean changing the default body type (it makes sense), but what about the "facial hair growth" toggle then? 🤔

 

And yes, more short haircuts would be nice too. It's just too bad I can only play "buff guy" (even when he is obese or very underweight, I don't see the difference visually) or a "girl with boobies" (a lot of girls, even not intersex, have barely any boobs showing, especially when underweight).

 

I know in the department PZ is WAY BETTER than a lot of games where male characters are all apparent body builders and female characters fantasized adult movie stars with a huge breast (and revealing clothing/armor) but more diversity in the character creation department is always welcome. 🙂

 

Anyways, I just made my suggestion and will now just wait patiently to discover all the new things the next updates will bring. Perhaps one day someone will mod it to the game too as there are many mods changing/expanding character creation already.

 

Thank you for your answer! ❤️

[PoshRocketeer]

I have absolutely no problem with inclusion, but I don't think it's the responsibility of developers to include and cater to  every possible type of minority group imaginable, that puts a lot of extra work on devs for something that the vast majority of people wouldn't use, or would use outside of its intended purpose (like for a joke, as an example.) With the number of jokey characters my friends and I have played as, I think you might get a little more than you bargain for in that regard. Small example, I have a disfigured appearance, this is something that I have no control over, and is something that when given the option I like to include, but I don't think it's the responsibility of developers to go out of their way to cater to  this, as my situation is not the 'norm', in that it's not average or particularly common, nor do I think that it should be included for 'realism's sake. Yes, it's realistic that people may have an appearance like mine, but it's circumstantial. It would be just as realistic if the characters don't look like me, because most people don't. Kind of in the same way that it would be realistic if plastic bags floated in the wind, but it doesn't really need to be there, nor does it impact gameplay in a substantial way to make it worth going out of their way to implement if it takes resources away from developing other content. (Not comparing your situation to a plastic bag, just an analogy explaining my thought process). We're already lacking pretty major things like obese/underweight models, models for different levels of fitness and strength, different animations based on skill level. Until those are addressed, adding anything like this would pretty drastically increase the workload just to get a baseline for some or all of these features. It would make more sense to lay down the foundation for these things, then expand the pool of body type customizations.

 

 

I am 100% for it being added if the devs decide it's a priority, or if they are already going back and overhauling customization. In that case, might as well, right?  But at the same time I personally feel like this is mod territory.  There's a lot more I'd rather the devs focus on than character customization in general, especially for a problem that's pretty niche when you consider the whole of the community.

 

That said, I'm sure there are plenty of like-minded people who would be more than happy to help you out in the modding community, it may be worth asking around there in the meantime while we wait for any potential overhauls to customization.

 

Edit: I see enigma has posted a comment with pretty similar sentiments, maybe one day, but probably not soon. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by PoshRocketeer
Trying not to be insensitive

[razab]

On 9/15/2023 at 3:22 PM, Star Shepherd said:

PZ is WAY BETTER than a lot of games where male characters are all apparent body builders and female characters fantasized adult movie stars with a huge breast

strongly agree on that point!

[GodHatesHaloWaypoint]

 

On 9/15/2023 at 1:58 AM, Star Shepherd said:

I'm a roleplayer so I wouldn't play a non-binary character in 1993 Kentucky anyway, it wouldn't make sense. By that I mean my characters are non-binary, for sure, but the word for it and use of gender neutral pronouns wasn't a thing back then so this isn't what I am asking for since we don't have the use of pronouns in this game at all (up untile NPCs get implemented at least). If you want to keep the initial binary choice for the pronouns in the future, for the dialogues with the NPC, I think it's no problem and is realistic considering the setting.

Big respect for OP here. Other forums I've been on whenever this topic is brought up consideration for the game's setting is thrown out the window with a hardened no compromise stance taken.

 

So long as these changes are just an option I don't think they would bother anyone. Some of these things might already be mods too if you want them now, while I haven't looked, I bet somebody has already enabled beards on both male and female characters via mods already.

 

I don't know how difficult the body type/ boob stuff would be to pull off, but the beard and hairiness would probably be on the easier side of things. Like hairiness would just be a texture change enabled by a checkbox which male characters already have if I'm not mistaken. The main challenge I see with the boob size/ body type thing is that all clothes in the game would probably need to be remodeled to fit every body type and variation which would be a lot of work. If they do go forward with a boob size slider I think it'd be hilarious if the scale straight up goes from "Flat" to "Anime" instead of just a numbered scale.

 

That aside I'd imagine this would probably be somewhat low on the totem pole in regards to importance considering the game is perma-death, but I wouldn't be opposed to see more options though as I am also the type of person who enjoys character customization.

 

EDIT:

Actually, seeing as there's a weight system in the game the Dev's could tie different body types to that. Like if the player is obese they will actually look obese, and as they lose weight the characters size will progressively decrease.

Edited November 5, 2023 by GodHatesHaloWaypoint

[doshskia]

i feel like it would be a waste of the developers time and effort for somethink that
A. alot people wont care about
B. alot of people dont want it
C. the amount of effort put into making such a thing is better spent else wheres

i feel as if this is better left for modders to make

[PoshRocketeer]

On 11/4/2023 at 7:50 PM, GodHatesHaloWaypoint said:

 

Big respect for OP here. Other forums I've been on whenever this topic is brought up consideration for the game's setting is thrown out the window with a hardened no compromise stance taken.

 

So long as these changes are just an option I don't think they would bother anyone. Some of these things might already be mods too if you want them now, while I haven't looked, I bet somebody has already enabled beards on both male and female characters via mods already.

 

I don't know how difficult the body type/ boob stuff would be to pull off, but the beard and hairiness would probably be on the easier side of things. Like hairiness would just be a texture change enabled by a checkbox which male characters already have if I'm not mistaken. The main challenge I see with the boob size/ body type thing is that all clothes in the game would probably need to be remodeled to fit every body type and variation which would be a lot of work. If they do go forward with a boob size slider I think it'd be hilarious if the scale straight up goes from "Flat" to "Anime" instead of just a numbered scale.

 

That aside I'd imagine this would probably be somewhat low on the totem pole in regards to importance considering the game is perma-death, but I wouldn't be opposed to see more options though as I am also the type of person who enjoys character customization.

 

EDIT:

Actually, seeing as there's a weight system in the game the Dev's could tie different body types to that. Like if the player is obese they will actually look obese, and as they lose weight the characters size will progressively decrease.

Not related to OP but at the point where you're implementing bust and ass sliders you've lost me. Those kind of sliders only appeal to one kind of person, and it's not the LGBTQ community.

[getstoopid]

Well actually the OP didn't ask for a "(not-really)adult-game-boobs-slider" but a "tone-down-checkbox"... and that wouldn't even need to be an intersex person but maybe just a woman with very small breasts or a man that tends to get "boobs" easier than others.

I also don't think that, given the current state of the game, more inclusive variations of bodies should be a primary objective but in the long run I also would like to see a more accurate visual representation of the physical state of my character - more like weight and fitness than sex but anyway.

 

[Edit] @PoshRocketeerI didn't read the post you are referring to... so please assume I didn't answer to your post *g

Edited November 7, 2023 by getstoopid

[PoshRocketeer]

5 hours ago, getstoopid said:

Well actually the OP didn't ask for a "(not-really)adult-game-boobs-slider" but a "tone-down-checkbox"... and that wouldn't even need to be an intersex person but maybe just a woman with very small breasts or a man that tends to get "boobs" easier than others.

I also don't think that, given the current state of the game, more inclusive variations of bodies should be a primary objective but in the long run I also would like to see a more accurate visual representation of the physical state of my character - more like weight and fitness than sex but anyway.

 

[Edit] @PoshRocketeerI didn't read the post you are referring to... so please assume I didn't answer to your post *g

Also in agreement that this is a really low priority considering the fact that the game isn't even close to being finished. 

[GodHatesHaloWaypoint]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:40 AM, PoshRocketeer said:

Not related to OP but at the point where you're implementing bust and ass sliders you've lost me. Those kind of sliders only appeal to one kind of person, and it's not the LGBTQ community.

I was only talking about how different body types could be implemented going off the idea OP pitched. Imo it'd be better to connect it with the weight system rather than going with raw sliders, because you're right about it crossing the threshold into other territories. Couldn't really help going there given the nature of what was being suggested. 

 

In general I'd also prefer that the resources something like this would consume be invested into further developing gameplay mechanics as that's where this game really shines.