SteamOS: My Worries

[matthewsturvey]

Totally understand Lemmy - if Microsoft had essentially mugged me off for thousands of pounds, I'd be reticent to trust the blighters again.

 

To them, it is nothing, but to you - as an indie - that money is something that is going to have a big impact on your life.

[CaptainBinky]

Wow.

 

In a nutshell:

 

Open source > Not open source.

 

2 companies championing open source > 1 company championing open source > no companies championing open source

 

Open OS > Closed OS

 

Therefore:

 

Valve > Microsoft / Apple

 

and

 

Android > iPhone

 

The end.

[lemmy101]

Wow.

 

In a nutshell:

 

Open source > Not open source.

 

2 companies championing open source > 1 company championing open source > no companies championing open source

 

Open OS > Closed OS

 

Therefore:

 

Valve > Microsoft / Apple

 

and

 

Android > iPhone

 

The end.

 

QFT - Vote open. Stay safe.

[CyberspyXD]

I'm starting to think Valve is getting way too confident with this all. I can see this being run on Steam consoles (They are said to be modifiable so I would switch over to windows) but not on dedicated PCs and laptops. And I need to know why Steam OS is going to be good or the "future". It seems like this is just going to be a Niche for Linux gamers.

 

And yes I am back though I was lurking the forums.

[lemmy101]

I'm starting to think Valve is getting way too confident with this all. I can see this being run on Steam consoles (They are said to be modifiable so I would switch over to windows) but not on dedicated PCs and laptops. And I need to know why Steam OS is going to be good or the "future". It seems like this is just going to be a Niche for Linux gamers.

 

And yes I am back though I was lurking the forums.

 

Nah they know exactly what they doing.

 

They sold the world on Steam with Half Life 2.

They sold the world on SteamOS with Half Life 3

 

This is how the history books will chronicle it all. And so poetically circular.

 

I've been wondering for a couple of years now, how the hell can MS dominance ever be challenged, and how can Linux ever become truly relevant outside tech circles. This is exactly how and the plan is a work of art.

 

And re: the 'Future', how about massively higher FPS's in games, and more bang for your buck hardware wise. They all in bed with nVidia who have made them custom Linux OpenGL drivers and it should make a substantial difference.

[CaptainBinky]

Valve are basically Babylon 5.

 

Yeah, sometimes there are fights and someone gets shot. But they're the last best hope for peace.

 

Which makes Gabe, Sheridan, and Sheridan was awesome. QED.

[lemmy101]

Valve are basically Babylon 5.

 

Yeah, sometimes there are fights and someone gets shot. But they're the last best hope for peace.

 

Which makes Gabe, Sheridan, and Sheridan was awesome. QED.

 

Now Binks, comparing Gabe to Sheridan may suggest some kind of fanboyism angle that will undermine our argument.

 

FYI: We're Desura fanboys, not Valve fanboys.

[CaptainBinky]

I'm no Valve fanboy - as you can see from my watertight argument above, I have arrived at that conclusion via cold hard irrefutable rational logic.

 

And yes, much love to Desura <3

[Rathlord]

I will admit having a hardware/software developer directly in with Nvidia specifically with the intent of making it gaming perfect is exciting (Dellienware doesn't count).

 

If the computer-code level performance increases are as good as they're touting, it'd be worth it to me to pick up SteamOS/SteamBox for gaming regardless of whether the rest of it was shit or not.

[CaptainBinky]

Oh my god, I've just found this leaked webcam image of a shareholders' meeting at Apple:

 

[Nickenstein79]

Genuine LOL!

[LennyLeak]

Interesting thread..

 

Personally I've never been a big fan of OSX - to be sure, mostly out of habit. The UI is slick but not to my liking.

And I must say that I hate iTunes. I dont like the program at all, and all those fucking updates are intrusive and overly frequent. I got a lot of bad things to say about Windows also though, e.g. I hate how the windows updater does not detect that I'm fullscreened, and while I'm gaming all of a sudden will boot my computer. --- (Thinking about it, I think I generally hate that every little program on every platform is updated all the fucking time, and it is always intrusive and too frequent. I like my software updated but c'mon)

 

I was reluctant to go on Steam for exactly the reasons outlined in the OP. At some point I had to install it for some game, and bit the bullet. Now I really like it, and have never had any trouble. However, the EULA does concern me, and Rathlord I would love to read that post you made on the forums explaining what people are actually agreeing to.

 

In the end I agree that open source > not open source, and I look forward to see how SteamOS wil work out. It sounds interesting IMO. Corporations can be trusted to do one thing, maximise profit. Open source and free distribution is normally not good for corporate profit. Corporations try to gain monopoly and those things hinder that. Any initiative that counters that corporate tendency is welcomed by me. I am certainly both pleased and uneased by the developments in distribution as of late. I guess we will see what the futture brings.

 

At any rate, I appreciate the perspectives in this thread. Sry for rambling - I better get to bed.

[Nickenstein79]

At the end of the day, Lemmy, the only difference I see is your idea of which company you think is the 'bad' one. Steam, Microsoft, Apple- all three could do this literally with the touch of a button. You've hung your hat one what Gabe "says" he envisions for the future, but I don't see how that's any different than me hopefully hanging my hat on Apple. The fact of the matter is, all three have an absolute, undeniably equal potential to do this.

 

There is a major difference being overlooked here:

 

Shareholders.

 

Valve has none to answer to.

 

This basically boils it down to Valve having the _potential_ to be nasty in the future, with Apple + Microsoft being absolutely guaranteed to do so.

 

Unless shareholders meetings go like this:

 

Shareholder A : "So when are we going to lock it all down?"

Shareholder B : "What makes you think we would do that?"

Shareholder A : "Well we could get 30+ % of every single software unit sale in the entire world. That's a lot. I've checked."

CEO : "Well, we have spent all these years sneaking in the ability to lock it all down step-by-step for no reason at all. Let's not bother."

Shareholder A : "Good point. I hate money anyway."

[Rathlord]

Nick you're completely ignoring the fact that people could just go to a different system if they did this. The backlash would be huge.

 

Lenny my post on the Valve forums was purged from the DB, so it's gone forever now. I had it written out in a text editor originally, but I delete them after I post them so unfortunately I don't have a copy anymore. Be happy to talk it over with you- I'm hypocritical enough to use Steam even with my problems with them, but there's no doubt that it's scummy and wrong. The ramifications are more important than what's said, too.

 

On OS X, at least, all of the updates are completely manual and you can turn off any notifications for them if you like to.

 

It appears this has devolved into senseless Apple bashing and general "all big corporations are evil" chat, so it's my time to leave. If anyone has questions for me, feel free to PM.

[Nickenstein79]

Nick you're completely ignoring the fact that people could just go to a different system if they did this. The backlash would be huge.

 

"Did this" ?

 

They're already doing this. They're regarding our wallets with envious eyes, slowly and surely drawing their plans against us. DUN DUN DERRR /TheWarOfTheWorlds

 

It's happening, in baby steps. And the reason it's being done in meticulous baby steps is to strategically avoid such a backlash.

 

As Lemmy threw in a nice tiger analogy earlier, here is an animal analogy of my own:

 

I think of Windows 8 and new versions of OSx like a constrictor python. They get close, gradually closer still. They smoothly wrap around you and smile. Little by little they gently cover your throat and limbs. But they do so in a measured and delicate manner, causing you very little worry, or alarm. All the while with that reassuring smile, then in a snap... CONSTRICT!

 

You're fucked. And you let it happen.

 

And as for people going to a different system if/when MS & Apple finally lock it all down (the python's steady work is now almost done), I think that's exactly the reason why SteamOS is such a potential god-send.

[Rathlord]

Corporations are obviously aware that "constrict" would drive all of their customers to other markets, be it Steam OS or another Linux distro.

 

And if you really think they're stupid enough to do it, then it really doesn't matter worth a shit what we do. There's no 'fighting back' or 'making a stand' if the corporations don't care about losing customers.

 

 

Eh... was gonna add more. There's no arguing, though. I'm still as dry on this "sinking ship" as I have been the last 20 years, and if it continues to "sink" this slowly then I really don't give a shit, because I'll be dead by the time it happens.

[matthewsturvey]

I have to admit that some of the extrapolations being made here are puzzling me.

 

As a store concept, there is little between Apple, Microsoft, Steam, or any other digital distribution concept. Simply speaking, developers creates a product, there are some parameters that the product must pass (ie. some store entry criteria), and the company then takes a cut for distributing it.

 

Logically, such a process makes a lot of sense. Do I, as a consumer, want to see malware infested rubbish on my official store, whether it is Steam, Apple's App Store, or anywhere else? No, obviously, and this is predominately why Google shaped up their Play Store from its initial incarnation. To that end, I openly recommend such a vetting procedure for simple quality purposes.

 

Expanding this out to the OS level, the main logic appears to be that SteamOS will be more open, and thus more valuable to those of us who are techies. It also appears to be the case that this is seen as infinitely preferable to Apple or Microsoft's ecosystems for the distribution of games.

 

Now, the general operating system that SteamOS runs (likely to be some flavour of Debian/Ubuntu given their past preferences) is probably, at least short term, going to be open - open in the sense that you can install whatever applications you like.

 

As things stand, today, I can install applications on my Windows desktop and my MacBook Pro from alternate locations too. Whether this will be the case in future may be debatable but, speaking based on today, I can do these things.

 

Getting into games, what Steam is going to be offering inside SteamOS is no different to any other app store offering - it will be a place where products have to be vetted before they are distributed. Yes, you will be able to install games from other sources like you can on Ubuntu (or Windows or Mac), but they will presumably use the Steam store as the preferred destination for buying - in reality, exactly the same as it is as of today for my Mac or Windows computers.

 

Thus what confuses me is this belief that it is going to be inherently better because it is open. Inherently better to who? Techs, most certainly, but we've seen with most Linux distros that their penetration of the wider market is minimal at best.

 

Consumers, for the most part, are not bothered about the technical things we might care about. They want to know if they can buy that cool game they have heard about, and have a good idea that what they are buying is the real deal and not, y'know, some malware infested POS. If Steam can do that, great, same as how casual users see the emerging app stores on computers or the established app stores on mobile devices.

 

Getting back to Steam, just releasing an open distribution of Linux is not going to be the sole way Steam leverage this operating system. Logically, they are going to pair it with hardware and sell that as a platform. If the platform is essentially a derivative of Ubuntu, then we've already seen that they have Linux support on a lot of games they could sell from day one, especially those that are controller enabled.

 

At that point, Valve have to start making discrete boxes with actual names - the Steambox One or whatever - for it to become something more convenient than a PC build. If a game is sold saying "This works on Steambox One" the same way as a game bought for PS3/Xbox works, then it is a good sell to the consumer. If it just offers some tech specs the same as PC games do, it may as well be a PC with either SteamOS or another OS installed.

 

All of this leads me to the core of the criticism of other corporations and the correlation to Valve. For Valve to make this a logical step, they will be sensible to cover the hardware market in discrete models. They will need to control what the specs are of these models, and presumably tie them into SteamOS strongly, having a store front the same as Big Picture mode operates under. Then they can sell products that fit discrete, Steam built requirements, presumably including nVidia chipsets (something nVidia will be keen to do given that PS4/XBox One are going ATI).

 

SteamOS would then, just as Big Picture mode allows, offer the chance to install games outside of "the store", but the vast majority of consumers, in my opinion, would just stay in the store ecosystem because it is "safe" and means they can be sure what they are getting.

 

At that point, what we're ending up with is no different to the Apple or Microsoft situations of today - people can install software from other sources, but the average person prefers not to for perceived safety, rightly or wrongly.

 

Which all points back to a familiar point - where we are currently with Macs and PCs - and leads to this fear that things might change on our current platforms.

They may well do, and the app stores that have cropped up point in that direction, but the reality is that the SteamOS platform will push people to a preferable source the same way our current computers do for Microsoft or Apple. The only perceivable difference is that SteamOS will allow us to install apps outside of one source, something that would be largely irrelevant to the majority of consumers (not techs).

 

This then just turns SteamOS into another Linux distribution - which is what it will be - and then only becomes a force if it is simple for the hoi polloi to use rather than us, meaning it will be just like Big Picture mode. Will those people then use non-standard store options of purchase? I doubt it, meaning whilst there are more options (assuming Microsoft/Apple switch off external software sources as an option), the vast majority of consumers will consider the non-official route as irrelevant because it is complex, no different to how many casual/non-tech users may find an OS like Android today - you can install .debs but, us techs aside, who does that?

 

Short statement is that SteamOS may well be another great platform for the masses, but only if paired with a simple discrete platform that doesn't have varying hardware. If it does mean hardware fragmentation via "upgradeable" Steamboxes, or if we are just looking at it as SteamOS on our own built hardware, it is no better than my Ubuntu install on my laptop that currently runs Steam now anyway.

 

In short, it has to aim to act like our current consoles do - again, not known for their openness per se - if it is going to be popular with the masses. Give an option to install outside of Steam, sure, but I don't think the users are going to do it, leaving developers at the mercy of Valve/Steam instead of Microsoft or Apple.

 

Nothing changes per se besides shifted goalposts - as of today, there would be no benefit for me to move to that platform. As of tomorrow? Who knows - anything can change.

 

PS Sorry for the long post but needed to cover a lot!

[lemmy101]

Corporations are obviously aware that "constrict" would drive all of their customers to other markets, be it Steam OS or another Linux distro.

 

And if you really think they're stupid enough to do it, then it really doesn't matter worth a shit what we do. There's no 'fighting back' or 'making a stand' if the corporations don't care about losing customers.

 

 

Eh... was gonna add more. There's no arguing, though. I'm still as dry on this "sinking ship" as I have been the last 20 years, and if it continues to "sink" this slowly then I really don't give a shit, because I'll be dead by the time it happens.

 

Sorry you're assuming the majority of Mac users are like you, and moreso you're assuming you'll be even a 1 percentile of type of mac owner by the time this happens.

 

Both Apple and Microsoft are courting the masses of people who have bought iPhones and similar devices. Macs have always been the trendy option, do you think all the millions upon millions of people who use Facebook and eBay, do some word processing and maybe a bit of desktop publishing for their newsletters etc. Are they going to give two shades of a shit about this? Or are they gong to be acclimatized to it by their experiences on iPhone. They may even WELCOME it because hey the app store is great and makes it easy to find stuff etc etc etc. There is no capacity for disappointment as they won't ever know what isn't on the store and what games or apps have never been made due to the restrictions of the platform. If you expect there would be a massive revolt then I think you're expecting too much from mainstream users.

 

Same as MS and Windows too, exactly the same.

 

Don't confuse internet vitriol with 'majority opinion' in this case. All they have to do to minimize it is make this process a slow one that takes the next 3-4 years. Maybe even longer.

 

Stepping stones, as I say. The problem with stepping stones is the majority outside tech circles don't even know it's happened, or by the time they do, there's a new generation who never knew any different anyway.

 

I'm not necessarily saying the 'pull the plug' will be instantaneous, and could be more stringent rules on digital signing over the course of 3-4 years, possibly spanning several OS's

[Rathlord]

-snip-

But don't you see, Valve will never do it because they're not evil like Apple and Microsoft. Ignore the fact that they're moving in the exact same direction, or that they have the industry worse DRM for purchases from their store when compared to the App Store or whatever Microsoft has. Just ignore that.

The way you know Vale doesn't care about money is that they provide their service as a nonprofit that jus covers it's own expenses. WAIT A MINUTE, they don't do that!

[nasKo]

-snip-

But don't you see, Valve will never do it because they're not evil like Apple and Microsoft. Ignore the fact that they're moving in the exact same direction, or that they have the industry worse DRM for purchases from their store when compared to the App Store or whatever Microsoft has. Just ignore that.

The way you know Vale doesn't care about money is that they provide their service as a nonprofit that jus covers it's own expenses. WAIT A MINUTE, they don't do that!

 

This is from the US TOS of the iTunes store:

 

LICENSE OF MAC APP STORE AND APP STORE PRODUCTS

The software products made available through the Mac App Store and App Store (collectively, the “App Store Products”) are licensed, not sold, to you. There are two (2) categories of App Store Products, as follows: (i) those App Store Products that have been developed, and are licensed to you, by Apple ( “Apple Products”); and (ii) those App Store Products that have been developed, and are licensed to you, by a third-party developer ( “Third-Party Products”). The category of a particular App Store Product (Apple Product or Third-Party Product) is identified on the Mac App Store application or App Store application.

It's (unfortunately) common practice in digital distribution and even when something is 100% DRM-free it's what every service has in their ToS, even GoG, IIRC.

Edit: corrected myself.

[harakka]

The key difference in Valve vs Apple and Microsoft, for me, is that Valve isn't ultimately beholden to shareholders, but only the mythical being known as Gabe Newell. Not being publicly traded means they actually have the option to consider something else than quarterly profits as their key performance indicator. I have no illusions about Valve as some supremely moral entity, but at least they have the possibility to not be assholes. Publicly traded companies don't have that option.

[Rathlord]

At the end of the day they're for profit just like the others and if they didn't care about money there wouldn't be situations like baldurs gate enhanced edition where the lead dev (Trent Oster) says it's not even worthwhile to make sales on Steam. There's some outside stuff in play there that makes their profit margin smaller, but the point is if all Valve cared about was being the legendary pinnacle of gaming then they'd just cover their overhead. Being for profit, they are beholden I make money regardless of shareholders.

That's true of iTunes Martin, but Apple has no way of ever taking those licenses away. You can burn them to CDs or simply drag and drop them out of iTunes and they're yours, forever. That's not true of Steam's product.

Don't take that as me not thinking licensing is wrong, though. It's wrong for Apple just like its wrong for Valve.

[nasKo]

I had the problem of getting my iPod Touch stolen a while ago (a year or so).

Afzer switching PCs I didn't have my purchases in iTunes on the same account. CS enabled me to get them back but mentioned I should do backups because they will only reinstate it X ammount of times.

If that has changed in the meanwhile, it's a change for the better.

Looking into my iTunes library now it's missing those purchases, though.

CBA to contact them again as I'm not too hazzled about it.

As for SteamOS, I just hope it will boost Linux hardware and driver support as a whole.

Of course some TOS are scary and Steam certainly has some...I have never heard of someone who lost his games content because of a cheat offense or other trivial stuff.

The steam forum accounts aren't even neccessarily tied to the Steam account (at least they didn'...not too sure if that's still the case).

Cheating bans you on the engine's anticheat (VAC ban on CSS means a VAC ban on DODS and TF2 - you can still play those games just not on VAC secured servers. HL1 engine games are untouched, so you can still play CS1.6) but it doesn't cut you off your games.

I put some hope into SteamOS (and the Steam Controller too) but I am under no illusion that Valve is the ultimate good guy.

They just seem less customer-fuckery than MS and Apple to me, from personal experience.

[Keepbro]

Speaking as a complete moron with no programming or computery knowledge whatsoever - it seems like Steam OS can only be a good thing.

 

Its trying to make an industry standard set of tools and programming whatsits because currently it seems that making games work across ALL systems is next to impossible. Again I have no development knowledge but surely this is going to make it f-a-a-a-r easier to make games work and not have the problem of games being released half finished and being patched to death afterwards - COUGHCOUGHROMETOTALWARCOUGHCOH2COUGHCOUGH

 

I think the only reason for there being any hint of problem with it is that its Valve doing it and they have created a monster of a closed system for DRM (Steam) which pretty much controls the market on gaming digital distribution. However if they HADNT of done this then it be like the bad old days where everyone pirated and game development was kinda crappy in that devs would spend AGES making a game only for it to be pirated straight out of the box.

 

I think that Valve have done the right thing in trying to stick to the whole Free Software ethos by doing this so respect to them even if I do think that Richard Stallman is a bit of plonker and his ethos a pile of crap (because it doesn't really work and costs people their jobs)

[lemmy101]

 

-snip-

But don't you see, Valve will never do it because they're not evil like Apple and Microsoft. Ignore the fact that they're moving in the exact same direction, or that they have the industry worse DRM for purchases from their store when compared to the App Store or whatever Microsoft has. Just ignore that.

The way you know Vale doesn't care about money is that they provide their service as a nonprofit that jus covers it's own expenses. WAIT A MINUTE, they don't do that!

 

 

EDIT: Just noticed you didn't quote me, but my opinion stands.

 

How many times have I said, YES, I fully expect at some undetermined time in the future for the bad to creep in. But it simply cannot launch with the bad. There has to be a grace period where it's attractive to developers, to get their support and get them using it, to get enough games working in Linux to attract all the customers. So we'll get a grace period, at least a year, possibly a few years, where this will not happen. It cannot happen and Valve wouldn't be stupid enough for it to happen since it would kill SteamOS before it ever got support in the first place. And therefore that period of time when SteamOS has to be all about being open for developers and consumers is worth jumping on and using to its fullest.

 

MS and Apple's 'grace period' has ended, and the evil is already creeping in. It's not here fully yet, but it's enough for me to want to jump ship. We'll jump ship again when the next ship starts to sink, and again when the next ship starts to sink, and so on until finally a company learns that the developers don't care for their closed systems.

 

The only way to make it clear we don't want closed systems is to buy and support and develop for the most open system at any given time. In the case of OS's this is Android and SteamOS/Linux, and NOT iOS, Mac and Windows. This is not subjective, it's fact.

 

I can't wrap my head around why I keep repeatedly getting attributed with the opinion Valve are holy and will ensure a thousand years of saintliness despite repeatedly saying, especially if Gabe is succeeded, I fully expect SteamOS to turn bad one day. But SteamOS will crash and burn and fail miserably if it isn't every bit as open as Valve have repeatedly said it HAS to be for the good of PC gaming. To challenge consoles AND windows AND mac all at the same time, they need to do everything in their power to make it as attractive to all as possible, so if you think they're going to do anything like this right away then that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

It's kinda like the leader of the opposition stating before an election that they're going to raise taxes, start a war, drone strike a children's hospital, spy on their citizens and abolish the NHS. What sort of moron would do that? Except in this case it's possible to still lose for a long period after the election so even once elected they still have to keep to their promises at least until everyone is invested and the system is a success.

 

Therefore QED it will come out the gate honoring all its openness promises, and if it does that there is by definition a period of time where they could not change this without a revolt and mass loss of support, and further if programs can run without certification then there is a technological block on their ability to do this, until they introduce certification, which in itself is a warning sign (admittedly seemingly not seen by a lot of people) that they are going down this route, as they would have to go through the same long period of positioning that Apple and MS are clearly (to some of us) doing at the moment.