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Lothar

Cement for buildings

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Lothar, I'm afriad I have to disagree with you there.  Working with wood - and I am a carpenter more or less by trade - is far far far far easier than working with cement.  I don't want to make a long argument, especially if your English is not very good.  But consider this:

 

I have built plenty of walls out of wood.  Most of them went reasonably quickly and didn't crumple like paper when I was done.

 

I've also built things out of cement.  I've seen that go wrong more often.  As I mentioned in one of my posts, I've seen an improperly constructed frame burst open at the bottom and dump wet cement all over our working area.  I've seen a slab, poured without real knowledge of what to do, split completley down the middle in the first week.  I've seen a wall where the cement wasn't worked in properly around the rebar while being poured end up full of holes when the frame came off.

 

The point is, not only is working with wood easier and faster, but there's also a lot less that can go wrong if you mess up.  With lumber, if you nail a board in the wrong place you just pry it off and try again.  With concrete your mistakes are permanent and costly.

 

Not the same thing.  Not the same at all.

That's what I say, never say that they are the same:

 

"Have you ever plastered a wall guys? Is not that simple and it requires more tools than just the buket. But in-game is faster than barricating.

Have you ever build a wall, some stairs with wood? It will surelly requires many tools than just "hammer and nails", and also quite a manual skill to make it stand and resist properly. Is not that simple AT ALL. But in-game is easy like drinking a beer.

 

So, why are you saing that is hard to do a concrete wall? (wicth it is, I'm not saing that isn't)

It's pointless to put out that.

 

All three of this operation are hard to perform.

It's just that 2 are in-game, so they go simple and smooth, and 1 isn't in-game."

 

In fact the only problem here is that Ratlord don't like the idea. Like he has just wrote. And what I'm saying is that if you can do a wall with wood in-game you should be able to do a concrete wall. Just like in real life. That's the end of it.

 

But if Ratlord start saying "it's to hard, to heavy (witch is just no sense, try to carry a log or a bag of concrete then you tell me what's the heaviest!) and all, well I think I should tell him that's not right.

No harsh fellings agaist him of course!

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I deleted about four paragraphs of text because I think I finally understand you.

 

First, Rathlord isn't talking about the weight of a bag of concrete versus a bag of cement, he's talking about the weight of the finished walls.

 

I said before a 4'x8'x6" slab would weigh over 200 pounds.  240-250, probably.  That means a ten-foot wall of concrete would weigh about 600 pounds.  Enough to cover one side of a house (say 40 feet, no extra length for a garden) would weigh more than a ton (or 1,088 kilos).  Unless you're making a wall out of nothing but tree trunks I think you'll find that a wooden wall is considerably lighter.

 

If the concrete weren't resting on a firm base and properly constructed it would split apart under its own weight (it is, suprisingly, very brittle) as the ground below it sank down unevenly - or worse, it would topple over and destroy or kill anything it lands on.

 

Second, while the process of building a concrete wall should be straightforward and simple in the game (like in my suggestion so many people seem to like  :oops:) the difficulty should be balanced by an incredibly high resource requirement such as needing to mix several bags of cement and a few containers of water for every single section and possibly a need for one or more survivors to help you.

 

In game, the process is simple but the resource requirmenets are not, making this a straightforward, easy-to-learn mechanic that can still be restricted to endgame status by requring a huge manpower investment (and therefore probably a large group) in terms of not only construction but going out and scavenging what you need for your group to even consider this a posibility.

 

Also, as an aside, I could totally build a wall with a hammer and a few nails.  That's generally how it's done.  (clyde)

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As I already said, there a difference between reality and keep the fun, you're like Thuztor (no offense :D), always want to add stuff because of reality, but if we do that, the average joe will take 1 day to build like 3 walls ? Really not fun in my opinion...

About the difficulty, it require to be lvl 5 in carpentry, so it takes some times, don't you think ?

But why not a mod to add more difficulty/reality ?

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I don't think it's boring.  No more boring than just watering your crops to survive, anyway.

 

Think about it.  If it takes max skill, then anyone who can do this has already invested a lot of time in the game.  They probably have a wooden wall up and just want to build cement behind it to be utterly safe.  Investing more time to make that happen isn't a chore at this point, it's something to do besides doodling and waiting to get hungry.  It gives the player a project to work towards after a farm is set up and they're self-sustainable, and incentive to leave the area and loot once in a while after this happens.

 

Also, while one person could maybe only manage three sections of wall in a day, two people can manage six and so on.  This gives you incentive to work together and provides security for large groups. If you have a stong wall some lone bandit with a sledgehammer can't come at night and take all your beans. That's where I really see concrete shinng - the building material of choice for a team or community that wants or needs that extra security.

 

I know realism shouldn't stand in the way of our Fun, but we also have to be careful that we don't let the Fun spoil the realism.  Realistically, working with a lot of cement by yourself would be a slow, grueling, miserable task.  That's not much Fun but I don't think you'll find anyone (with experience) that will tell you that someone making a concrete wall by themselves would have an easy time. Working with more than one person would alleviate this significantly - as it does in real life - and working with your friends on a project is a lot of Fun.

 

Plus, seeing a nigh-indestructable wall surrounding your base is a lot more satisfying if you and your friends had to work hard to get it and not just slap it down in a day.  Or at least I think so. ;)

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What do you mean with three "sections" of wall?

Three wall parts in a day? That's way too less.

 

It should take max. two times longer as it is now, in my opinion.

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What do you mean with three "sections" of wall?

Three wall parts in a day? That's way too less.

 

It should take max. two times longer as it is now, in my opinion.

Three, I'd be more comfortable with. Just double the amount of resources and don't make it available until carpentry level 3 or 4.

Then they almost deserve a neigh-impenetrable wall.

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Just to be clear Lothar, I didn't warn you. It's my policy to never warn people who are being rude to me, and instead let another mod or admin handle the situation so that I'm not biased.

I've said, already, that I've built houses from the ground up. I can literally link a picture of a house I built with my hands from wood. It was not prefab. It has a concrete slab under it and a concrete foundation.

So far all you have said is that I don't know what I'm talking about. You haven't bothered to give one once of real world experience or cite a source. Until you actually have some evidence to back up your claims against someone who actually has experience in the field, maybe you should consider for just the briefest of seconds that I'm not pulling this out of my ass and I do know what I'm talking about. But maybe that's too much to expect from the Internet.

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What do you mean with three "sections" of wall?

Three wall parts in a day? That's way too less.

 

It should take max. two times longer as it is now, in my opinion.

Three, I'd be more comfortable with. Just double the amount of resources and don't make it available until carpentry level 3 or 4.

Then they almost deserve a neigh-impenetrable wall.

 

 

Ahhh, right, we're talking about cement walls. :D

 

I would suggest, that it should be possible to build the wooden construction for the cement wall with the double amount of time for normal wooden walls.

if you have closed ends, you can fast pour the prepared thick cement in it... with a bucket or so.

After 10 buckets one wall is full. If you have 5 segments of walls, so you need 50 buckets.

Alone it would take forever a very long time. But with NPC....

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And in the interest of irony: whilst pointing out the fact that I don't know what I'm talking about, you missed the fact that most of the coliseum is made of stone, not concrete. What concrete there is was made by professionals which makes your point entirely worthless. No one is arguing that concrete doesn't exist, just that it isn't plausible for every day people to find all of the equipment, have the know how. , and manage to do it all on their own.

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What do you mean with three "sections" of wall?

Three wall parts in a day? That's way too less.

 

It should take max. two times longer as it is now, in my opinion.

Three, I'd be more comfortable with. Just double the amount of resources and don't make it available until carpentry level 3 or 4.

Then they almost deserve a neigh-impenetrable wall.

 

 

Never again will they be subject to the nightmare-inducing whinny of ZomboHorse.

 

On topic, I don't think we need to get detailed enough in-game to differentiate between closed frames and open frames.  One frame per section of wall, open or not, with the walls automagically becoming linked on completion would be fine with me.

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I don't know the science behind all of it, but here's what would be awesome about cement walls. First, off: They shouldn't be able to be broken down by zombies, and you can only break them with a lot of swings from a sledgehammer. Now, here's the balance.

 

You can't build a doorframe out of cement, since you don't have the tools to cut open said cement. So basically, you could have an entire shack built out of cement, but you'd need a wooden doorframe and door. So if you don't plan ahead and only build one doorway, sure your WALLS are invincible, but not your door.

 

Basically, unless you do proper planning, you could have your only exit completely blocked by zombies. And if a horde is coming and they wrap around and start beating on all your exits? You're fucked, whereas with a wooden wall you just chop it down with an axe and leg it. You probably wouldn't have the time to smash down a cement wall.

 

I think that's reasonable. And if you don't want the cement walls to be invincible, at least give them a shitload of health so that it takes zombies a VERY long time to break them down. I think you'd have to do that anyways, so that it takes the player a while to bust down the wall with a sledgehammer. I dunno though.

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The thing is, I'd be fine with an oversimplified version of concrete in the game if it was a plausible concept, just like I'm okay with oversimplified carpentry. But the problem with concrete is that it's based off if an implausible concept in the first place, and that really grates on me.

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And in the interest of irony: whilst pointing out the fact that I don't know what I'm talking about, you missed the fact that most of the coliseum is made of stone, not concrete. What concrete there is was made by professionals which makes your point entirely worthless. No one is arguing that concrete doesn't exist, just that it isn't plausible for every day people to find all of the equipment, have the know how. , and manage to do it all on their own.

It's mostly build with concrete my friend. It's the concrete that keeps the stones togheter. (must know that builder!)

You need some evidence of what I'm saying? No problem at all send me Private Message and I'll give you the site were you can actually come for a vacation in some of my own builded houses here in Italy (not put it here cause I don't want to share my privacy with everyone). Come and see how we build in the proper manners. I'm in this business since I'm 18 and now I'm 25. Quite of experiece man. Thanks to my dad architectures we are quite good in business.

And I'm quite sure that every human with a working brain can use concrete, and that explain why his use go soo back in history. I think that if you have to, you will learn pretty quikly how it works and how to use it.

But again you don't think so? Fine, that's your opinion.

Just don't say that's too difficult, 'cause simply: IT AIN'T in my opinion.

I don't know the science behind all of it, but here's what would be awesome about cement walls. First, off: They shouldn't be able to be broken down by zombies, and you can only break them with a lot of swings from a sledgehammer. Now, here's the balance.

You can't build a doorframe out of cement, since you don't have the tools to cut open said cement. So basically, you could have an entire shack built out of cement, but you'd need a wooden doorframe and door. So if you don't plan ahead and only build one doorway, sure your WALLS are invincible, but not your door.

Basically, unless you do proper planning, you could have your only exit completely blocked by zombies. And if a horde is coming and they wrap around and start beating on all your exits? You're fucked, whereas with a wooden wall you just chop it down with an axe and leg it. You probably wouldn't have the time to smash down a cement wall.

I think that's reasonable. And if you don't want the cement walls to be invincible, at least give them a shitload of health so that it takes zombies a VERY long time to break them down. I think you'd have to do that anyways, so that it takes the player a while to bust down the wall with a sledgehammer. I dunno though.

"You can't build a doorframe out of cement, since you don't have the tools to cut open said cement."

That's not how you do a doorframe man, you don't cut it, you just shape the container for the cement like doorframe!

I deleted about four paragraphs of text because I think I finally understand you.

First, Rathlord isn't talking about the weight of a bag of concrete versus a bag of cement, he's talking about the weight of the finished walls.

I said before a 4'x8'x6" slab would weigh over 200 pounds. 240-250, probably. That means a ten-foot wall of concrete would weigh about 600 pounds. Enough to cover one side of a house (say 40 feet, no extra length for a garden) would weigh more than a ton (or 1,088 kilos). Unless you're making a wall out of nothing but tree trunks I think you'll find that a wooden wall is considerably lighter.

If the concrete weren't resting on a firm base and properly constructed it would split apart under its own weight (it is, suprisingly, very brittle) as the ground below it sank down unevenly - or worse, it would topple over and destroy or kill anything it lands on.

Second, while the process of building a concrete wall should be straightforward and simple in the game (like in my suggestion so many people seem to like :oops:) the difficulty should be balanced by an incredibly high resource requirement such as needing to mix several bags of cement and a few containers of water for every single section and possibly a need for one or more survivors to help you.

In game, the process is simple but the resource requirmenets are not, making this a straightforward, easy-to-learn mechanic that can still be restricted to endgame status by requring a huge manpower investment (and therefore probably a large group) in terms of not only construction but going out and scavenging what you need for your group to even consider this a posibility.

Also, as an aside, I could totally build a wall with a hammer and a few nails. That's generally how it's done. (clyde)

Sure you can build a wall with only nails and hammer but can be kick down easly if you don't make a really good proper base. And takes a lot of time to do that, and again quite of a know how. And for SURE it ain't enoght just an hammer and some nails.

How you gonna keep the zombie or even the wind to don't make this fall to pieces? No man you need to dig (with an hammer???) deep in the ground and stick there some logs to be your base. Then you can try to buid your wall.

AGAIN NOT THAT SIMPLE AND NOT THAT "EVERYBODY CAN DO IT IN SMALL TIME".

So you see... I don't even know why we are still talking of something that has found his end with this:

"All three of this operation are hard to perform.

It's just that 2 are in-game, so they go simple and smooth, and 1 isn't in-game."

About the weight: I must have understand wrong then!

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Don't triple post, please. The software can handle multiple quotes within one post just fine.

Sorry!

Just to be clear Lothar, I didn't warn you. It's my policy to never warn people who are being rude to me, and instead let another mod or admin handle the situation so that I'm not biased.

I've said, already, that I've built houses from the ground up. I can literally link a picture of a house I built with my hands from wood. It was not prefab. It has a concrete slab under it and a concrete foundation.

So far all you have said is that I don't know what I'm talking about. You haven't bothered to give one once of real world experience or cite a source. Until you actually have some evidence to back up your claims against someone who actually has experience in the field, maybe you should consider for just the briefest of seconds that I'm not pulling this out of my ass and I do know what I'm talking about. But maybe that's too much to expect from the Internet.

Yeep! my mistake to haven't read from who was the warn!

"But maybe that's too much to expect from the Internet." don't make that sad face man.. I'm friendly here!

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Maybe something is being lost in translation here but "mostly" means a majority, or more than half. The coliseum is MOSTLY made of rock. There is some concrete.

Furthermore, that cocrete is not moulded like you're talking about, it's spread between bricks. That's a completely different process. And once again, that's done by professionals. It doesn't matter what time period it was in, those were still craftsmen who made a living off of it.

You keep calling everything you're saying "facts" but you're backing it up with either nothing, 'facts' that aren't true, or just making things up.

I can see, though, that no matter how many people here (including a professional carpenter and a guy who's done both carpentry and masonry) and in the face of an overwhelming majority of evidence you will remain convinced that you're right no matter what. On that note, I'm going to kindly take my leave from the thread as my time is obviously being wasted.

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I think Lothar is referring to constructing walls from stone and mortar. That's an ancient building technique for producing good, strong walls and if that's what he's referring to, I also think would be much easier to make walls this way than with wood. As, he has spelt out pretty clearly - it is difficult to make a proper base or foundation for a wooden wall.

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I think Lothar is referring to constructing walls from stone and mortar. That's an ancient building technique for producing good, strong walls and if that's what he's referring to, I also think would be much easier to make walls this way than with wood. As, he has spelt out pretty clearly - it is difficult to make a proper base or foundation for a wooden wall.

If you want a single story, you can literally sink 4 x 4 posts into the ground (3-4 feet deep) then build off that. That's a temporary structure, of course. It's better to embed them in concrete.

it's even better to dig four-five feet down and have concrete footings. But, now we're starting to blend disciplines, aren't we?

 

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I don't know the science behind all of it, but here's what would be awesome about cement walls. First, off: They shouldn't be able to be broken down by zombies, and you can only break them with a lot of swings from a sledgehammer. Now, here's the balance.

You can't build a doorframe out of cement, since you don't have the tools to cut open said cement. So basically, you could have an entire shack built out of cement, but you'd need a wooden doorframe and door. So if you don't plan ahead and only build one doorway, sure your WALLS are invincible, but not your door.

Basically, unless you do proper planning, you could have your only exit completely blocked by zombies. And if a horde is coming and they wrap around and start beating on all your exits? You're fucked, whereas with a wooden wall you just chop it down with an axe and leg it. You probably wouldn't have the time to smash down a cement wall.

I think that's reasonable. And if you don't want the cement walls to be invincible, at least give them a shitload of health so that it takes zombies a VERY long time to break them down. I think you'd have to do that anyways, so that it takes the player a while to bust down the wall with a sledgehammer. I dunno though.

"You can't build a doorframe out of cement, since you don't have the tools to cut open said cement."

That's not how you do a doorframe man, you don't cut it, you just shape the container for the cement like doorframe!

 

Oh, right. Sorry, I typed that when I was tired. Still, there has to be some sort of balance for cement/concrete walls, and basically being forced to make chokepoints where you can get trapped sounds decent.

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Maybe something is being lost in translation here but "mostly" means a majority, or more than half. The coliseum is MOSTLY made of rock. There is some concrete.

Furthermore, that cocrete is not moulded like you're talking about, it's spread between bricks. That's a completely different process. And once again, that's done by professionals. It doesn't matter what time period it was in, those were still craftsmen who made a living off of it.

You keep calling everything you're saying "facts" but you're backing it up with either nothing, 'facts' that aren't true, or just making things up.

I can see, though, that no matter how many people here (including a professional carpenter and a guy who's done both carpentry and masonry) and in the face of an overwhelming majority of evidence you will remain convinced that you're right no matter what. On that note, I'm going to kindly take my leave from the thread as my time is obviously being wasted.

... so you don't want to see what are my building skill Rathlord? Go on Booking and tipe "Aosta-Chambres D'Amis" that's just a little taste of what can be done using your brain... and then you can see how u can use cement, wood, steel in the proper manner. (since that for you is impossible to manage to use concrete or any other material for everybody that isn't "expert"!)

Man what I'm saying is the simple truth: EVERYBOY can use cement, EVERYBODY can learn how to use it.

Simply deal with that man, everybody can be an "expert". (sorry to take off your title!)

Now do you want to keep talking about useless stuff, like the "mostly".. just kid talk there.. so sad to read from an "expert". The fact is the SAME is concrete that keep it together. And OF COURSE is spread between the stones. (it's so OBVIOUS that, I didn't think it was needed a mention, since that I'm talking to a "builder for living" right?). No need to be a genius to do that. Not even "expert".

Why do you keep clutch at straws?

I'm gonna post a video on Y-T where I make a concrete wall my-self, like a tutorial.

So maybe when you see it you will stop argouing about nothing..

P.S. Do me a favor and do a research for the use of concrete (calcestruzzo, cemento, calce) in the history.

Discover why it's always used in fortification. Find out why there are so many different techniques to use it. Find why everybody can learn how to use it, not even using modern techniques.

FACTS MAN, NOT POINT OF VIEW.

I think Lothar is referring to constructing walls from stone and mortar. That's an ancient building technique for producing good, strong walls and if that's what he's referring to, I also think would be much easier to make walls this way than with wood. As, he has spelt out pretty clearly - it is difficult to make a proper base or foundation for a wooden wall.

If you want a single story, you can literally sink 4 x 4 posts into the ground (3-4 feet deep) then build off that. That's a temporary structure, of course. It's better to embed them in concrete.

it's even better to dig four-five feet down and have concrete footings. But, now we're starting to blend disciplines, aren't we?

Seems like we are!

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I can see, though, that no matter how many people here (including a professional carpenter and a guy who's done both carpentry and masonry) and in the face of an overwhelming majority of evidence you will remain convinced that you're right no matter what. On that note, I'm going to kindly take my leave from the thread as my time is obviously being wasted.

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Are you sure you're not talking about masonry with parged concrete (smoothed over brick) rather than forming buildings with liquid concrete?

Mortar is generally just fine sand, possibly lye, and cement, rather concrete.

I just really doubt you mean this, but above ground:

88014014-construction-worker-pouring-con

 

Merged your posts.

Next double or triple post earns a (mild) warning.

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