Vanilla/Mod Discussion

[SilentLight]

This is a forked thread from a discussion about someone's offer for a free server. I've forked it on the basis the discussion is less about the server offer and more about views on the differences between vanilla and mod experiences. I don't want to derail the other person's thread. Original post I'm replying to.

 

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When i go on utube, i've seen people with an RV, driving around with a portable house,  semitrucks that can carry almost my whole base in its back, etc.

 

The issue I have with modded play, especially in YouTube videos, is they actually change what the outside perception is of the base experience of Project Zomboid.

I was drawn in because of a YouTube video, but I was very confused when I noticed certain features were absent in the game. Many of these videos don't carry disclaimers upfront that they're modded - often just mentioned offhand late into the video - and some them can even give advice that is incorrect for unmodded gameplay.

And many of these mods can be contradictory (a 'realistic' weapons mod that introduces a lethal rapid fire BB gun), or contrary to the difficult spirit of Project Zomboid gameplay, for example, rapid fire machine guns, an overabundance of easily accessible guns, easy-to-move doors, overpowered armour that is 'relatively' easy to access, negation of slower-walking-whilst-aiming (without the nimblefooted skill), the introduction of careers that make things easier (E.G. soldier), a bow and arrow that offers stealth and no drawbacks.

To me, that effectively feels like I'm cheating the underlying mechanic, or rather, not respecting the underlying intention that things be difficult. I also think it distorts the outside perception of what Project Zomboid actually entails. As an outsider, to me, it looked like a game where you endlessly gun down large hordes of zombies, with maybe some Minecraft-esque base building and survival. A sort of, tower-defence type feel.

But when I started playing it, and saw how slow reading for a skill was, and the manual fridge food cooking washing and mood aspect, I said 'this is like the Sims [the classic early 2000s version] with zombies'. And that's probably the more accurate portrayal. The Sims with zombies. Not 'Doom run and gun large hordes'.

 

For me, the jury is still out on my opinion of Project Zomboid. I like the intention, I can see what they're going for - what a Zombie movie would look like if you took away the glamour and showed what happened inbetween. But I also feel like certain elements of the gameplay... don't lend themselves to fun. And I don't mean 'Doom shooty shooty' fun, but the kind of general fun you're meant to have in a game. The skill tree feels grindy and inconsistent - somehow a guy who spends days studying a book knows less than a guy who watched a one hour cooking show(???) and gameplay kinda feels like it swings between two extremes - high intensity all-on zombie fleeing action or household chore simulator. There is something there, I can feel this game has greatness, but, it feels a bit... sloggy.

I feel like the mods are an attempt to compensate for the uneven vanilla gameplay, but they're introducing other people's visions of what they think a zombie game should be and nearly all of those views involve 'gunning down large quantities of the undead'. The problem is those ideas aren't novel. I think Project Zomboid is onto something with the Sims angle, but it feels like the zombie combat experience and the time spent hiding like a coward in your house doing household chores in vanilla gameplay are disjointed affairs.

[EnigmaGrey]

Gotta disagree about most of this.

 

Mods more often fill niches we're not interested in exploring, in ways that we feel would not be fitting with the game; Mods often scratch that power-fantasy itch that some expect from their games; mods often turn something more organic ( and yes, playing it safe is the natural outcome of that in this setting ) into something more gamey if that's what players want. This may sound judgmental, but it's all good to me -- the whole point of supporting mods is to let you do your own thing (up until it impinges development) while we do ours, after all.

 

It's just that people as a group also do not agree on everything and don't seem to have a grasp on what they actually like. They often ruin the fun for themselves because of this. We can't make millions happy -  sometimes we can't even make ourselves happy because working in a team is always going to be some of compromise, even while pursuing a specific vision.

 

  PZ can't be all things to all people short of recreating the universe atom by atom: you see needless grind, other people see 400 hours of gameplay  inexplicably chasing those skills (when they could just change the XP modifier). I'm personally bewildered by this and we'll likely change the skill system to what we feel are it main detractors, but you do you.

 

Same thing for combat. Some people do not seem to want to put in the time to plan ahead (anticipate momentum, know when they pushed too far for the underlying mechanics)  or learn how it works (trial and error; change behaviour; die a lot) -- so be it, there's a mod for that. Some people do not like randomness in games at all -- so be it, someone will probably mod it out one day. But ... we're not going to take on things we feel would hurt the game or slow/distract development just because server owners are way too liberal with mod selection. :/

 

We respect your right choose, to customize the game. Just remember that our goals might not match your taste (same for individual servers).
 

In practical terms? just got to get out of your own head and have some fun. That's all that matters (so long as you're not hurting other people). Don't worry about ruining the vanilla experience for yourself. Mod it, tweak it, or don't touch anything and embrace the suck. Don't overthink it, unless that's fun in itself, ofc. :p

[hellol]

see, what really draw me to this game was exactly the "The Sims 1" visual, but with guns!  Also, being able to get in a car and actually drive it , something TS1 wouldnt allow.

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Many of these videos don't carry disclaimers upfront that they're modded

some may say that bad advertising is still advertising. But getting too many people to the game with the wrong idea, could be harmful in the long term. To tell you the truth, the first time i installed the game, i hated it, and ended up uninstalling it. Didn't ask for a refund. Later on, i don't know why, it came to me that saying "good things are hard", ... so i decided to try again. In my gameplay, i came from "dying in the 2nd zombie" to "being able to survive almost 2 months" .  I'm still trying.

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that effectively feels like I'm cheating the underlying mechanic, or rather, not respecting the underlying intention that things be difficult

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mods often turn something more organic .... into something more gamey if that's what players want

many games allow external modding, PZ is not the first and surelly wont be the last. Hell, depending of that one person's perspective,  any changes to the default behaviour of a game could be considered modding. Like difficulty (easy - normal - hard) , camera-view, etc.  Its just "internal" modding.

 

like i tried to mention in the other thread, (and SilentLight 's writing corrected me ) its only my personal feeling, that external mods change too much the original gameplay intention. And it really might get to a point of being a cheating mechanism. Someone said in an earlier post, that a non-official modded server could be used intentionally to harm  other people, and i agree, because the majority of the players actually have no idea  of what the source code of those mods could do. Trojans and backdoor exploits, maybe ? It's online , right,  so it's always good to be careful.

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It's just that people as a group also do not agree on everything and don't seem to have a grasp on what they actually like .... just got to get out of your own head and have some fun .... so long as you're not hurting other people

Yes. Well, if the game allows modding, as long as the source code is not being modified, people could have a possibility to create their own experience. It's a good thing, i think. But at this point, i'll stick with the "vanilla way" of playing. At least, until i can figure out the rest of the game. Who knows, in the furure, i might too, to try mods, We never know.

Edited April 19 by hellol

[SilentLight]

On 4/19/2024 at 12:37 PM, EnigmaGrey said:

Gotta disagree about most of this.

 

Mods more often fill niches we're not interested in exploring, in ways that we feel would not be fitting with the game; Mods often scratch that power-fantasy itch that some expect from their games; mods often turn something more organic ( and yes, playing it safe is the natural outcome of that in this setting ) into something more gamey if that's what players want. This may sound judgmental, but it's all good to me -- the whole point of supporting mods is to let you do your own thing (up until it impinges development) while we do ours, after all.

 

I think perhaps my views seemed more critical than intended (it sort follows on from the context of the vanilla server discussion earlier).

 

So earlier in that original discussion, I mentioned I didn't mind other players using mods, I however feel some mods are compensating for unintended gameplay mechanics. I "embrace the suck", as you say, because for me, I'm approaching this game from a beta-test angle.

 

In gameplay design, there's a view towards protecting a player 'from themselves'. For example, players in video games will often hoard and not use health items, fearing some upcoming boss battle. What ends up happening is not only do they not use the items during the course of the game (which is what they're supposed to be for), they also don't use it during the boss battle. The end result is the player engages in hoarding and micro-management of the inventory in what should be a fast-paced game. Half-life 2 solved this by making medkits instant use. Other games solve this by making stationary healing areas, or by limiting the health item slot to one, encouraging the player to use up spares. Some games lean into the hoarding factor and encourage it, by making it more pleasant by removing inventory micro-management (for example, Link in BotW can hold basically an infinite number of meals. Don't ask where he stores it all).

 

It strikes me currently that players are so singly afraid of that one-bite-run-ender (especially if one has been squirrelling away a lot of resources), they either play extremely safe, in a way that's arguably not fun and defeats the point of having zombies (go to a remote enough wood area and you're basically in sandbox Minecraft), or upon the tiniest unfair mistake - and they do happen - they fire up debug mode and remove the infection via god mode. The other way being, they invent a mod that mitigates that risk; cures, super-thick body armour, a crap ton of guns.

 

Essentially it strikes me the players are trying to avoid the key feature of Zomboid, which are the zombies. What you end up with is a sort of... remote wood hoarding simulator. Which suggests to me the gameplay mechanics need an adjustment. I've not yet sussed what the adjustment needs to be as I'm testing the 'hide in a remote house' strategy.

 

For me, I had the most fun when I was periodically sneaking from house to house, staying for a period of time in each one, trying to conservatively use canned supplies, whilst killing zombies in backgardens, as I didn't have to worry about trying to ferry goods everywhere. At one point, I thought the zombies stopped pursuing you the moment you went indoors. It's not how they actually behave, but I found the idea of zombies losing interest if you go indoors interesting because it invites a stealthy strategy.

 

I'm having the 'least' fun with the remote house setup. It's safe, but it is... also boring. However, the game hard punishes any exciting playstyles. I tried a run where I was aggressive with a dedicated strength build, and despite capping 100+ zombies (pure melee), it was over by day 3 because of an errant bite. Essentially, the more zombie engagements you have, the higher the probability of a bite, so the game encourages zero zombie engagements.

 

I suspect this might be because killing zombies themselves does not carry any direct rewards (besides maybe better clothing and a bag). I think zombies ought to be carrying food supplies more frequently, as well as maybe other types of more frequent rewards. That way, the risk has a reward as trade-off.

 

I also tried the hobo foraging approach, which sort-of works but because foraging does not find food regularly enough, and most of that foraged food goes stale very quickly (sometimes, such as mushrooms, even immediately!), you end up still setting up a collection point, which then turns into a remote wood base.

I'm not sure what the 'right' style of play is, or what the gameplay mechanics should be tweaked to... but I'm not a fan of OCD hoarding where I spend all day inventory sorting, and I'm also not a fan of suicide missions. Still, I think mods are trying to patch the symptoms, and not the cause.

[hellol]

11 hours ago, SilentLight said:

Essentially it strikes me the players are trying to avoid the key feature of Zomboid, which are the zombies. What you end up with is a sort of... remote wood hoarding simulator

actually, it does feel that , eventually,  the gameplay would turn into a farm-mechanic kind of thing. After setting up a base, all that'll be left to do would be grow crops / fishing / trapping.

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killing zombies themselves does not carry any direct rewards 

i thought about that for a while.   For example, after killing dozens, maybe hundreds of zombies almost barehanded,  getting scratched and hurt a few times, and surviving, ... my character still gets scaried when spotting a Z  who is 30m away. I mean , he could be already considered a battle veteran, right?  Maybe the game could have some traits that are only acquired during gameplay.

[odizzido]

I enjoy mods, but I've not looked at modding PZ. I think the only mod I would like to make right now is to have a vegan trait where meat and such makes you unhappy and beans and lentils give you a boost instead of their current negative. The unhappiness would decrease over time as the character got used to it but it would never fully go away.

[EnigmaGrey]

On 4/22/2024 at 1:19 AM, SilentLight said:

 

I think perhaps my views seemed more critical than intended (it sort follows on from the context of the vanilla server discussion earlier).

 

So earlier in that original discussion, I mentioned I didn't mind other players using mods, I however feel some mods are compensating for unintended gameplay mechanics. I "embrace the suck", as you say, because for me, I'm approaching this game from a beta-test angle.

 

In gameplay design, there's a view towards protecting a player 'from themselves'. For example, players in video games will often hoard and not use health items, fearing some upcoming boss battle. What ends up happening is not only do they not use the items during the course of the game (which is what they're supposed to be for), they also don't use it during the boss battle. The end result is the player engages in hoarding and micro-management of the inventory in what should be a fast-paced game. Half-life 2 solved this by making medkits instant use. Other games solve this by making stationary healing areas, or by limiting the health item slot to one, encouraging the player to use up spares. Some games lean into the hoarding factor and encourage it, by making it more pleasant by removing inventory micro-management (for example, Link in BotW can hold basically an infinite number of meals. Don't ask where he stores it all).

 

It strikes me currently that players are so singly afraid of that one-bite-run-ender (especially if one has been squirrelling away a lot of resources), they either play extremely safe, in a way that's arguably not fun and defeats the point of having zombies (go to a remote enough wood area and you're basically in sandbox Minecraft), or upon the tiniest unfair mistake - and they do happen - they fire up debug mode and remove the infection via god mode. The other way being, they invent a mod that mitigates that risk; cures, super-thick body armour, a crap ton of guns.

 

Essentially it strikes me the players are trying to avoid the key feature of Zomboid, which are the zombies. What you end up with is a sort of... remote wood hoarding simulator. Which suggests to me the gameplay mechanics need an adjustment. I've not yet sussed what the adjustment needs to be as I'm testing the 'hide in a remote house' strategy.

 

For me, I had the most fun when I was periodically sneaking from house to house, staying for a period of time in each one, trying to conservatively use canned supplies, whilst killing zombies in backgardens, as I didn't have to worry about trying to ferry goods everywhere. At one point, I thought the zombies stopped pursuing you the moment you went indoors. It's not how they actually behave, but I found the idea of zombies losing interest if you go indoors interesting because it invites a stealthy strategy.

 

I'm having the 'least' fun with the remote house setup. It's safe, but it is... also boring. However, the game hard punishes any exciting playstyles. I tried a run where I was aggressive with a dedicated strength build, and despite capping 100+ zombies (pure melee), it was over by day 3 because of an errant bite. Essentially, the more zombie engagements you have, the higher the probability of a bite, so the game encourages zero zombie engagements.

 

I suspect this might be because killing zombies themselves does not carry any direct rewards (besides maybe better clothing and a bag). I think zombies ought to be carrying food supplies more frequently, as well as maybe other types of more frequent rewards. That way, the risk has a reward as trade-off.

 

I also tried the hobo foraging approach, which sort-of works but because foraging does not find food regularly enough, and most of that foraged food goes stale very quickly (sometimes, such as mushrooms, even immediately!), you end up still setting up a collection point, which then turns into a remote wood base.

I'm not sure what the 'right' style of play is, or what the gameplay mechanics should be tweaked to... but I'm not a fan of OCD hoarding where I spend all day inventory sorting, and I'm also not a fan of suicide missions. Still, I think mods are trying to patch the symptoms, and not the cause.

*shrugs* To be blunt: We fundamentally disagree on game design and what PZ should be.

 

So your only alternative is mods.

 

Edit: just to be sure, I do agree with you in principal. Project Zomboid has certain design choices that does not make it a good game in a traditional sense. That's one of the things that likely most frustrates players who find themselves on the fence. The trouble is ... a lot of things that work in other genres don't work in a "realistic" survival game when combined with an open world sandbox and PZ's setting.

 

Events have to happen more organically (and unfortunately sometimes it means not at all); progression and survival become  risk aversion and hoarding; death is one wrong move away; the mechanics are mostly nondeterministic (but have just enough wiggle room that you can still master them if you pay attention and experiment); tedium, when done right, even feeds into the feeling that this is "real" and discourages some bad behaviours (see mods that remove weight limits eventually bricking saves because people collect so much when there's no impediment); and, worst of all -- the game either ends in your death or your player bored out of their gourd in purgatory -- how very existential and uncomfortable.

 

It's a very strange tightrope to walk versus the usual thing you would do when making a game. And it's simply not done yet; that as more content gets into the game, I feel many of these problems are going to slowly fall away, albeit in unexpected ways. But, it won't work for everyone. :/

 

I appreciate the enthusiasm. Please don't let me discourage you -- there's lots to work with, it's just a lil ' bit niche. :p

[SilentLight]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:42 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

*shrugs* To be blunt: We fundamentally disagree on game design and what PZ should be.

I would be curious what aspects you feel are incompatible. I admit I am using a game design approach and highlighting how some games design themselves to avoid players making things unfun for themselves, I feel like I didn't make any concrete suggestions. I know I gave examples, but those apply to other games (PZ is not HL2 or BotW, which are radically different games).

 

On 4/23/2024 at 10:42 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

I appreciate the enthusiasm. Please don't let me discourage you -- there's lots to work with, it's just a lil ' bit niche. :p

 

I fully respect disagreement, it's how new ideas emerge. Realistically for me, the best way would be to try to showcase my ideas, however I'm still in a beta-testing phase (I did write up some zombie AI proposals elsewhere but I'd prefer to test those by some means to see how they affect gameplay).

 

On 4/23/2024 at 10:42 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

So your only alternative is mods.

 

This is actually the approach I wanted to take first, but I will confess I am struggling. Documentation for Lua modding is quite patchy, maybe it exists somewhere but I've been struggling to find it - there's a few barebone details on Github that vaguely mention folder structure, and one very slow paced 18 minute long YT video on how to add an item, however I was hoping to find something that documents/lists all the things the Lua scripting is able to access, and the appropriate function documentation that goes with it.

I've also attempted to decompile and recompile Build 41. Whilst Intellij IDEA allows me to examine the files, it does not seem to have an option to bulk export them as .java files so I can edit them in the tool of my choice (I wanted to copy it into a separate clone directory for tweaking without destroying my own copy of the game). In-fact it seems most decompilers lack a bulk-export as a feature. I've not been able to successfully compile a cloned copy as a result, and I've got a sneaking suspicion the .so library files (as I'm on Ubuntu) called by pzexe.jar are generated by a C makefile or similar, and I don't have the original copy of the code for the .so

 

Currently, what I would like to be able to do is:

 

1. Create a decompiled copy that I can then recompile to test code optimisation tweaks and/or show-case gameplay adjustments, and/or
2. Use Lua to tweak gameplay mechanics (zombie AI behaviour, collision detection, speed, etc), with a lower priority eye towards a UI redesign

I recognise I'm biting off more than I can chew, but I would really prefer it if I could work in the original Java, or decompiled Java I can recompile (I prefer modifying code directly). I'm just not in the habit of decompiling and nabbing folks code.

 

On 4/23/2024 at 10:42 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

(see mods that remove weight limits eventually bricking saves because people collect so much when there's no impediment)

I wouldn't propose a removal of weight limits. The Breath of the Wild mechanic was simply an example of what I meant by 'protecting the player from themselves' (I.E. preventing them turning into min-max micro-management Excel spreadsheet user doing anally retentive floating point checks). I didn't mean to suggest it as a specific mechanic for PZ to adopt.

 

PZ kinda has a mechanic that already goes some way to solving the micro-management problem - foraging. The fact the picked up food goes stale so quickly forces the player to eat it relatively quickly (sans a freezer) which reduces food hoarding, keeping the inventory space clear. You also have subtle penalties (unhappiness) on items that should be used elsewhere (E.G. maggots for fishing) which subtly encourages players to not 'waste' maggots by eating them. I think zombies having a chance to be carrying food (given there will be those who were shopping or survivalists) would also reduce excess carrying dependency.

 

Player behaviour mechanics don't have to be contrary to the design of the game. In-fact, they're usually tailored specific to the game itself (usually based on playtesting and player behaviours that are undesirable or are unfun).

 

One thing I think PZ could benefit from are objectives. These aren't objectives that 'complete the game', but ones that make the player's life "easier" when completed (fetch quests, lore exploration, item exchange, etc), giving players something to do ('busywork tasks'). I suspect your NPC update might introduce something akin to this.

 

On 4/22/2024 at 4:33 PM, hellol said:

For example, after killing dozens, maybe hundreds of zombies almost barehanded,  getting scratched and hurt a few times, and surviving, ... my character still gets scaried when spotting a Z  who is 30m away. I mean , he could be already considered a battle veteran, right?  Maybe the game could have some traits that are only acquired during gameplay.

 

I think the character should be allowed to adapt (unless the player specifically disables it via a negative trait, E.G. cowardice), however I would o.f.f.s.e.t [why does this word change to 'havefset'?] this by suggesting maybe the zombies ought to evolve too. Weaker ones dying out, being replaced by stronger and faster ones as time goes on. After all, the player and the environment will kill off the weaker ones over time, until you get 28 Days Later sprinter zombies.

 

-

 

I really, really want to get into the PZ code so I can start tweaking things - I recognise it might be a bit pointless given I'm on B41 and B42 is in the pipeworks - but I need to start somewhere. A step-by-step guide on getting decompiled B41 code, and then recompiling it to run for Linux would be good. Can DM me if it isn't supposed to be public knowledge.

 

Edited April 25 by SilentLight

[EnigmaGrey]

:/ The lua scripting is largely self documenting, the game is in an easily decompiliable and recompiliable language; the modding sections have links to guides; the wiki contains  yet more guides and links to the javadoc; the Discord has an extremely active modding channel.

 

You have everything you need. I have already told you I'm not comfortable helping with this. Please respect that.

[SilentLight]

21 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

:/ The lua scripting is largely self documenting

I have not encountered such documents. To be clear, I understand how to write Lua code, but this isn't what is meant by code documentation - I would like to learn what API calls are possible.

 

the game is in an easily decompiliable and recompiliable language

 

Successful decompilation does not always mean successful recompilation, and is dependent on the decompiler successfully interpreting the Java bytecode (which it may not do).

 

the wiki contains  yet more guides and links to the javadoc

 

I have exhausted the Wiki's links (assuming you mean the ones found on https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Modding).

 

the modding sections have links to guides

 

Yes, these guides include the Github one I mentioned, however they are not typically complete, and besides the very basics (E.G. item additions) often don't have working examples. To be clear, I'm not looking to simply copy-paste another mod and then drop in replacements, I would like to try to write custom code from scratch.

 

I have already told you I'm not comfortable helping with this. Please respect that.

 

Respected, but I am confused - you did suggest I mod, and aired support for the modding community - do I not count?

 

I suggest changing the base game and you disapprove.

I adjust to modding the game and you disapprove.

 

Why?

[EnigmaGrey]

Fellow, you popped up, lectured us on programming and game design, and yet you've been unable to find a way to do any of this yourself in a few weeks now? You're a programmer or someone with programming experience. This shouldn't be a problem.

 

You're not going to get anywhere being so dependent and I'm not your Mom. Java -is not remotely- hard to decompile, repair, and rebuild even back when it was just AndroChef ( that program produced terribly broken code; that's  how I got started modding PZ. Really, why are you  trying to tell me the basics of what I learned the hard way and just worked through myself a decade ago? Get on with it. You can do this. ) let alone now that you can do it in an IDE, 13 years later.
 

Google how to do thIngs. If you get stuck, identify your weaknesses and fix them before asking others to do it for you or trying to argue. Seek out others who are actually interested in this sort of thing -- I'm not it.
 

I'm out.

[SilentLight]

2 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Fellow, you popped up, lectured us on programming and game design, and yet you've been unable to find a way to do any of this yourself in a few weeks now? You're apparently a programmer or someone with programming experience. This shouldn't be a problem.

 

As said before, I am not in the habit of decompiling and nabbing other people's code, normally I compile my own code, or compile code that has been intentionally made public (E.G. open source). And I have been busy over the last few weeks. I recently posted a thread where I had uploaded 53 AI generated sound files and the software did not write itself (this is coupled with another project for SQLite data management I was also working on).

 

Of course I will try the front door by asking (after doing searches, which I have done), rather than forcefully smashing in the backdoor. One usually does it the hard way after exhausting more appropriate options.

 

I'm sorry if my mentioning my prior experience seemed rude or arrogant. I only thought I was bringing up relevant aspects.

 

before asking others to do it for you

 

I do not think I asked you to do the work for me. I think I asked for a guide?

 

There's a difference between passively looking at individual class files via decompilation (which is what I was doing earlier), and actually getting a working executable. Usually one compiles the unaltered code first to make sure the base code runs (I.E. compilation works fine) before one tries to implement tweaks. And Intellij did not successfully compile the code (it unhelpfully pretends the builds have succeeded but doesn't actually produce anything), and does not a bulk export for the decompiled code (meaning I can't try to use something other than Intellij to compile it).

 

And I'm not trying to create a fork of Project Zomboid where I implement a hacky workaround for compilation. What I'm trying to do is keep the code as close to original as possible, so if I end up improving something, I can offer the appropriate code segment.

 

Yes, I could write some Python code to scour the entire folder structure using a lightning strike search (or a glob, I guess, but would still need filtering), and then run each filename through a piped command to a single-file decompiler, recreating the entire structure but decompiled, but I feel like there ought to be an easier way, I.E. one that already exists.

 

The last time I decompiled a Java project was a single small jar 6 years ago and it was purely to extract the very limited list of API calls in a discontinued prototype that had no documentation - and the documentation was searched for first. The scope isn't the same, and I wasn't required to recompile it. The 'zombie' folder alone has a reported '3,122 files', and it is daft of me to try to implement my own decompilation/recompilation approach if documentation for the right approach already exists. Nearly all the examples online presume a single jar. If there are no pre-existing solutions, then it is fine for me to implement my hacky approach.

 

Seek out others who are actually interested in this sort of thing

 

The folks who are interested, if they have the knowledge, did not make it public. Most report symbol errors, and none mention the fixes.

 

And, maybe it is the text, but I'm genuinely not trying to argue with you, I am trying to ask questions, learn whilst offering my viewpoint. I am supportive of PZ, though I do feel criticised and maybe that is impacting my tone.

 

Get on with it. You can do this.

 

A trial by fire, very well. I will go find my proverbial fire axe and go smash in the proverbial backdoor.

[EnigmaGrey]

Re-evaluate your approach.

 

Programming, at its heart, is taking a really complex problem and breaking it into a lot of little manageable steps.

 

 You're not doing that. You're making it really complicated, really involved, really dependent on other people providing you the information that you can easily learn by just picking one small class and fixing it yourself. Get that one file to compile. Go from there. Grep the mess, pick the one you need -- and only the one you need. Repeat.

(Just in case) And no, you do not need to have the entire project decompiled and fixed in order to compile a single class and use it. If you think that, you need to go back to the basics of Java. Go right back to the command line, work through the Sun tutorials. Play around with the java compiler: Get intimate with paths and flags; learn how to build a class w/ only other classes and single java source file.

 

Stop trying to teach grandma to suck eggs. 

 

[SilentLight]

13 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Re-evaluate your approach.

 

I shall.