Minigames for actions? (Adding excitement and imersiveness)

[Unamelable]

I was hooked on the idea of a Lockpick Mod where the character uses a lockpick or crowbar to open doors or windows with a little mini-game. The same goes for hot-wiring. I see this as a practical benefit because it can make the game more "alive" if you give the player the opportunity to act on the success of the actions.

 

For example, if a player passes a mini-game by taking apart furniture/electronics he will get the maximum resources possible from the character's level. And as in reality if you shoddily treat the work, you get no result.

 

A list of possible actions that the mini-games can have.

- Disassembly of electronic/furniture

- Hot-wiring

- Create/Repair

- Inserting bullets into the magazine

- Tailoring

[getstoopid]

I guess that would need to be implemented very carefully and with great thought and effort as it bears the risk that it tests more like the players skill instead of the chars. It should make sense to increase the corresponding skill in-game despite being "good at it" from a players perspective and as a noob player it would suck not being able to use a skill because I'm not skilled enough though the char would be.

Furthermore all the minigames should differ from the others because otherwise it's just boring after a short while and tends to simply annoy.

Edited November 15, 2023 by getstoopid

[Unamelable]

33 minutes ago, getstoopid said:

I guess that would need to be implemented very carefully and with great thought and effort as it bears the risk that it tests more like the players skill instead of the chars. It should make sense to increase the corresponding skill in-game despite being "good at it" from a players perspective and as a noob player it would suck not being able to use a skill because I'm not skilled enough though the char would be.

Furthermore all the minigames should differ from the others because otherwise it's just boring after a short while and tends to simply annoy.

You're right. But as it is, minigames will have a difficulty that will be extremely difficult at level 0, manageable at 1-2, tolerable at 3-4, not difficult at 5-6, and routine at 7-8.

Also don't forget that the difficulty of minigames can be made up. For example, you need to unscrew not 4 bolts on level 5, but 8 on level 2. 

 

I'm leaning on the fact that the developers will leave the "turn off" function as it will be really bad if you don't give the player a choice with innovations. For example you couldn't choose to collect experience on passive skills, after a couple of updates they added it to the sandbox menu.

 

And about the mini-games, since these are "mini-games" it wouldn't be hard to create a couple versions of some of the actions. Or tie specific mini-games to specific actions. For example, it would be hard to hotwire the Sports Car. The standard one will have the old look of the interior, but there will be more wires sticking out. On the heavy-duty the same only less wires but not less than the Sport cars.

 

If you disassemble the fittings, there will be a different mini-game for each type. For example, from the bed you need to remove the mattress, legs, "ribs?", cardboard, etc. The bunk bed will be slow to disassemble due to its size. To disassemble a wristwatch it will be enough to unscrew the screws and remove the case. Here you can really grow in fantasy

[PoshRocketeer]

I absolutely hate this idea in any RPG, including for things like lockpicking and hacking minigames even in games that I really like. Minigames are cool the first few times you do them, and become very tedious very quickly.

 

Good example of a game that got it right is the original Deus Ex. If you're skilled enough to break into a computer, JC Denton just DOES it, but this doesn't mean there's no challenge. When you're hacking terminals you have a time limit before the alarm system that the terminal is connected to gets set off, or if there is none, it just boots you out and won't let you back in if you fail to disconnect in time. Additionally, the world does not stop around you, you have your head down looking at the monitor and have NO idea what's happening around you outside of what you can hear.

 

Project Zomboid, funnily enough, also does this right. When your character can do the thing... they just do the thing, the risk comes from the fact that you can be snuck up on at almost any time.

 

Modern Bethesda/Fallout/Obsidian titles are an example of games that do this about as wrong as you can do it, even my starchild New Vegas. In those games, not only are you forced to do the minigame every time, but you cannot be snuck up on while you're DOING them, because it stops time. Same with terminals. There's a big reason why some of the most popular mods on the nexus for Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, and Fallout 4 either remove the minigame, make it WAY less tedious, or make it so that time is not stopped while you're doing them.  It's game design that wastes your time because it looked cool on a design doc, and Bethesda started doing it so everyone else started doing it too. I'm sure you've seen the Fallout 3/Skyrim lockpicking system in at least a dozen games by now.

 

If your character is skilled enough to do the thing, they should just do the thing instead of making you go through a tedious minigame that at best becomes annoying after you've done it 100 times, or at worst wastes your time because it takes longer than the old system. I'm not playing Zomboid for an in-depth carpentry sim, if I wanted that I'd put on my HTC Vive and play a carpentry/mechanic/electronic disassembly sim.

Edited November 15, 2023 by PoshRocketeer

[Unamelable]

1 hour ago, PoshRocketeer said:

I absolutely hate this idea in any RPG, including for things like lockpicking and hacking minigames even in games that I really like. Minigames are cool the first few times you do them, and become very tedious very quickly.

 

Good example of a game that got it right is the original Deus Ex. If you're skilled enough to break into a computer, JC Denton just DOES it, but this doesn't mean there's no challenge. When you're hacking terminals you have a time limit before the alarm system that the terminal is connected to gets set off, or if there is none, it just boots you out and won't let you back in if you fail to disconnect in time. Additionally, the world does not stop around you, you have your head down looking at the monitor and have NO idea what's happening around you outside of what you can hear.

 

Project Zomboid, funnily enough, also does this right. When your character can do the thing... they just do the thing, the risk comes from the fact that you can be snuck up on at almost any time.

 

Modern Bethesda/Fallout/Obsidian titles are an example of games that do this about as wrong as you can do it, even my starchild New Vegas. In those games, not only are you forced to do the minigame every time, but you cannot be snuck up on while you're DOING them, because it stops time. Same with terminals. There's a big reason why some of the most popular mods on the nexus for Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, and Fallout 4 either remove the minigame, make it WAY less tedious, or make it so that time is not stopped while you're doing them.  It's game design that wastes your time because it looked cool on a design doc, and Bethesda started doing it so everyone else started doing it too. I'm sure you've seen the Fallout 3/Skyrim lockpicking system in at least a dozen games by now.

 

If your character is skilled enough to do the thing, they should just do the thing instead of making you go through a tedious minigame that at best becomes annoying after you've done it 100 times, or at worst wastes your time because it takes longer than the old system. I'm not playing Zomboid for an in-depth carpentry sim, if I wanted that I'd put on my HTC Vive and play a carpentry/mechanic/electronic disassembly sim.

About Bethesda, i remember Oblivion where if you reach (like lvl 10 lockpicking?). You have option to "auto-skip" button where you can brute force with your luck and lock picks. But remember that 1 or 2 minigames in whole game. Of course that gonna be frustrating.

 

Im saying that to make minigames much more varied that it wouldn't be so that one mini-game would suffice for one action. I vote for having multiple iterations for multiple things that won't get boring (unless of course the item is popular like the same spear). Read what I was talking about above

 

I think the mini-game idea should have the option to disable itself if for example the other half of the people didn't like it. And if a player gets a level higher than 3 in the skill tree he will be able to automatically do this action if the player is bored with the minigame (well for example press Space when you disassemble a hardware or hotwire a car). At least that way you can please the whole audience

[PoshRocketeer]

42 minutes ago, Unamelable said:

About Bethesda, i remember Oblivion where if you reach (like lvl 10 lockpicking?). You have option to "auto-skip" button where you can brute force with your luck and lock picks. But remember that 1 or 2 minigames in whole game. Of course that gonna be frustrating.

 

Im saying that to make minigames much more varied that it wouldn't be so that one mini-game would suffice for one action. I vote for having multiple iterations for multiple things that won't get boring (unless of course the item is popular like the same spear). Read what I was talking about above

 

I think the mini-game idea should have the option to disable itself if for example the other half of the people didn't like it. And if a player gets a level higher than 3 in the skill tree he will be able to automatically do this action if the player is bored with the minigame (well for example press Space when you disassemble a hardware or hotwire a car). At least that way you can please the whole audience

I don't really care how varied the minigames are they're just not fun to play through. Imagine having to actually disassemble hundreds of pieces of furniture to level up carpentry instead of just having your character do it. It'd be a nightmare. Still very much of the opinion this idea should not be implemented,, sorry man.. The idea of manually disassembling furniture and electronics to grind skills sounds like the exact opposite of immersive and exciting to me, on top of the issues I mentioned with it above on top of just using up dev's time for something a lot of people would just turn off. This feels like mod something  for modders to implement.  Zomboid doesn't need these minigames.

 

Idk what the devs have planned but judging from the way things work now, I don't think they would disagree.

Edited November 15, 2023 by PoshRocketeer

[Unamelable]

2 hours ago, PoshRocketeer said:

I don't really care how varied the minigames are they're just not fun to play through. Imagine having to actually disassemble hundreds of pieces of furniture to level up carpentry instead of just having your character do it. It'd be a nightmare. Still very much of the opinion this idea should not be implemented,, sorry man.. The idea of manually disassembling furniture and electronics to grind skills sounds like the exact opposite of immersive and exciting to me, on top of the issues I mentioned with it above on top of just using up dev's time for something a lot of people would just turn off. This feels like mod something  for modders to implement.  Zomboid doesn't need these minigames.

 

Idk what the devs have planned but judging from the way things work now, I don't think they would disagree.

I'll stand my ground, that's how I see the game. But your opinion is just as valid. Knowing what they said about "extending" gameplay. Meaning that the game would change after a few years. And the fact that they're releasing dev blogs about medieval crafting. Then I can assume that the game will become a conditional Minecraft where it will roughly look like a village of inhabitants.

[getstoopid]

8 hours ago, PoshRocketeer said:

The idea of manually disassembling furniture and electronics to grind skills sounds like the exact opposite of immersive and exciting

I really don't like minigames but to be annoying and tedious would be exactly what they need to be to stop everyone from stupidly grinding a skill by repeating it (we've seen 'em all in hundreds of games.. beating trees senseless, torturing the lute and surrounding people by it, groping flowers and herbs just to "get to know 'em" or mindlessly burn everything on a pile to eventually get something edible out of it)... 

because ultimately this is as unimmersive as it can get Necessary?... maybe... but definitely not immersive in any way.

[PoshRocketeer]

4 minutes ago, getstoopid said:

I really don't like minigames but to be annoying and tedious would be exactly what they need to be to stop everyone from stupidly grinding a skill by repeating it (we've seen 'em all in hundreds of games.. beating trees senseless, torturing the lute and surrounding people by it, groping flowers and herbs just to "get to know 'em" or mindlessly burn everything on a pile to eventually get something edible out of it)... 

because ultimately this is as unimmersive as it can get Necessary?... maybe... but definitely not immersive in any way.

 I don't see how that fixes the problem of 'mindlessly disassembling things', it would just take way longer with the minigames and once you get into a rhythym it would still be quite mindless. What we need is a wider variety of sources to level up your carpentry through that are viable long-term so you don't HAVE to just tear apart entire neighborhoods of furniture and TVs, not a silly minigame. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by PoshRocketeer

[getstoopid]

 Wasn't meant to be helpful or fixing anything, just tried to be funny, didn't work obviously... just criticizing how it is at the moment. Totally agree with you that we need other sources of xp to get rid of mindless grinding - the problem is grinding is in fact the realistic approach of improving a skill... learning by repetition.

In the real world you just wouldn't do it for "all the necessary survival skills"... like... carpentry *meh except you were a carpenter or at least very handy and liked working with wood, and even if you would you never would try to be a master-carpenter... just good enough to build a weatherproof shelter or some defensive structure 

[PoshRocketeer]

12 minutes ago, getstoopid said:

 Wasn't meant to be helpful or fixing anything, just tried to be funny, didn't work obviously... just criticizing how it is at the moment. Totally agree with you that we need other sources of xp to get rid of mindless grinding - the problem is grinding is in fact the realistic approach of improving a skill... learning by repetition.

In the real world you just wouldn't do it for "all the necessary survival skills"... like... carpentry *meh except you were a carpenter or at least very handy and liked working with wood, and even if you would you never would try to be a master-carpenter... just good enough to build a weatherproof shelter or some defensive structure 

Ah I gotcha, sometimes sarcasm is hard to interpret through text. 

Totally agree, I think a few things that could be looked into for the future updates:

1: Reading books you're overqualified for once could give a  small XP boost per page. Even if it's miniscule, having the option to thumb through lower level books while you're out resting between fights, waiting for cooking, or just out of other reading materials would be supremely helpful in reducing some of the grind. 

2: With the higher emphasis on crafting in the future, more XP for crafting and creating things would be very welcome. It amazes me that the most efficient way to get XP is to break things, when in reality that's only good starting out, and would become way less effective than actually doing the thing the moment you know how to.

3: Adding onto the first point, you should also get XP from carpentry magazines and the like. You can only read them one time and they give you a recipe, so a small nudge to their appropriate skill would be greatly appreciated.

 

These are a few things that could make the grind a little more varied, but until we get to peep the new crafting system in full it's hard to speculate on more additions. If you've got any ideas for alternative skill grinding methods, would love to hear them.

[getstoopid]

I would add that it should be way harder to learn something completely new if no one's around anymore to help you. Resulting in skill caps for the "uneducated/untalented"... you just can't get past the famous 80% (rather 70 in this case...). Not a carpenter already? 7 points' the unbreakable barrier for you but you are a cook? Well then you are in for the yummy 10-point-hot-pot...

 

and forgot... yeah totally agree that building something should bring more xp than destroying

Edited November 15, 2023 by getstoopid

[PoshRocketeer]

12 minutes ago, getstoopid said:

I would add that it should be way harder to learn something completely new if no one's around anymore to help you. Resulting in skill caps for the "uneducated/untalented"... you just can't get past the famous 80% (rather 70 in this case...). Not a carpenter already? 7 points' the unbreakable barrier for you but you are a cook? Well then you are in for the yummy 10-point-hot-pot...

 

and forgot... yeah totally agree that building something should bring more xp than destroying

Eh, not so sure on that one. I feel like finding books appropriately leveled books should be able to break that barrier if nothing else, or at the very least it should be a "soft cap" where you can still level it up, it's just way harder. People still had to learn new techniques without being taught them at some point in history somehow. 

[getstoopid]

A soft cap may indeed be the way to go. I just want to say I don't see the master carpenter who was fisherman before... unless being gifted (talented/trait) or investing much time and effort. The top 30% should be a real challenge...

[PoshRocketeer]

25 minutes ago, getstoopid said:

A soft cap may indeed be the way to go. I just want to say I don't see the master carpenter who was fisherman before... unless being gifted (talented/trait) or investing much time and effort. The top 30% should be a real challenge...

Totally agree, especially if they started learning as an adult, which every character in zomboid currently is.

[Nowthere27]

Well they're adding a mini game for fishing.

[getstoopid]

I know and I really hope it won't be too annoying

[PoshRocketeer]

13 hours ago, Nowthere27 said:

Well they're adding a mini game for fishing.

Fishing is one of those things where I think there can be an exception as long as it's fun and doesn't get in the way. Like for example foraging is 'technically' a minigame, but it's interactive and keeps you doing things instead of just waiting for an extended period of time, but can you imagine having to disassemble every single table manually? I'd rather just be the guy who clicks on which tables than the guy manually unscrewing everything and putting it back together.

Edited November 22, 2023 by PoshRocketeer

[Unamelable]

10 hours ago, PoshRocketeer said:

Fishing is one of those things where I think there can be an exception as long as it's fun and doesn't get in the way. Like for example foraging is 'technically' a minigame, but it's interactive and keeps you doing things instead of just waiting for an extended period of time, but can you imagine having to disassemble every single table manually? I'd rather just be the guy who clicks on which tables than the guy manually unscrewing everything and putting it back together.

So technically I was right about the mini-games.

[PoshRocketeer]

37 minutes ago, Unamelable said:

So technically I was right about the mini-games.

No not at all

[Unamelable]

57 minutes ago, PoshRocketeer said:

No not at all

:/