Combat Skill Restructure

[Kajin]

This is one of those things that has always kind of irked me about PZ, and it's that combat skills don't carry over between weapons. I mean sure, a person who is good with a battleaxe might not do nearly as well with a baseball bat... But if you've worked hard enough to reach level five in axes, some of that combat skill is going to carry over into general fighting because by that point your character has seen enough fighting to generally know how to handle themselves in a crisis.

 

Basically, there should be two general combat skills: Melee and Ranged. Training put into the Melee skill raises combat proficiency with all melee weapons as it's a reflection of your character's general combat skill. It shows that they can handle themselves well in a fight. Training put into the Ranged skill represents your character's knowledge of projectile base weapons whether it be a sling, a crossbow, a bow, or guns. Obviously, more points in this skill raises your character's ability to use various ranged weapons.

 

Beyond that, you can still put skills into the various weapon types in order to sort of "specialize" in their use. If one has three points in a weapon based skill, that means they can handle that weapon very efficiently and benefit from using that weapon more than they would from using others. A character with three points in Melee and three points in a weapon skill will have an effective skill level of six when using that weapon and an effective skill level of three when using any other weapon.

 

Another thing that irks me is that weapon skills are too general. Right now melee weapons are split into Blunt and Blade, which is way oversimplifying it. Somehow you're just as good with a knife as you are with an axe, even though you've been using an axe almost exclusively and only recently started using a knife which has a number of fundamental differences in how it is best wielded. So I suggest that these weapon skills be separated into more specialized areas. For Melee, there would be an Axe skill, a Club skill, a Knife skill, a Crowbar skill and a Spear skill. For Ranged, there should be a Bow skill, a Crossbow skill, a Sling skill, a Shotgun skill, a Rifle skill and a Handgun skill. A few of those weapons don't exist yet in the game, but I included them as examples anyway just in case they do get added.

 

Thoughts?

[Rathlord]

I wouldn't mind seeing this if the devs are hoping to go that far in detail with it. To be honest, I'd really like to see a full skill system revamp coming back with something almost like Dwarf Fortress (though hopefully with better UI and obviously not to that big of an extent). Would love to see skills for lots of actions and meaningful changes with them.

 

I know the devs originally meant PZ to be a bit more RPG-ish than it is currently, so I wouldn't say this is exactly out of the question. I'd be quite curious to hear what one of them say about it, certainly.

 

The one thing I'll say for the general weapons skills is that some things do carry over, but the categories we have now might be better redefined.

 

Archery (covering crossbows, bows, and slings since they're all slow moving projectiles impacted heavily by gravity)

Firearms (fast moving projectiles where gravity largely doesn't come into play)

Piercing (everything with a stabbing animation, from knives to spear like objects; a big part of using piercing weapons efficiently is knowing where to stab)

Blunt (same reasoning as piercing, even more easy to generalize)

Slashing (same reasoning as above, again the important bits are more where you slash than the exact kind of weapon)

 

This lets you retain a bit of generalization but make a bit more sense. I'd still be happy to see a weapon (or possibly sub-category) specific talent set as well.

[EnigmaGrey]

Pretty sure combat skills already fall under a category that improves efficiency in some way? It's just hidden from the player.

[RobertJohnson]

We had a talk with Andy about it yesterday already, we'll chat more today to improve this

[artenais]

@Kajin

 

I see your point but,..I think that there should be some "specialized" weapons that does not apply the rule. For example, knowing how to use an axe does not mean you are proficient with a katana or a kukri as a martial artist is, or knowing how to operate an M4 does not apply the skill required to correctly operate a composite bow. This may sound stupid because you already pointed it in your post, but some "old" weapons require extensive training just to be able to operate that may be outside the "blunt/cut" skill tree.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

PS:. Some basic martial arts should be awesome.

[Impetiso]

Basically, there should be two general combat skills: Melee and Ranged. Training put into the Melee skill raises combat proficiency with all melee weapons as it's a reflection of your character's general combat skill.

...

 

Another thing that irks me is that weapon skills are too general. Right now melee weapons are split into Blunt and Blade, which is way oversimplifying it. Somehow you're just as good with a knife as you are with an axe, even though you've been using an axe almost exclusively and only recently started using a knife which has a number of fundamental differences in how it is best wielded. So I suggest that these weapon skills be separated into more specialized areas. For Melee, there would be an Axe skill, a Club skill, a Knife skill, a Crowbar skill and a Spear skill. For Ranged, there should be a Bow skill, a Crossbow skill, a Sling skill, a Shotgun skill, a Rifle skill and a Handgun skill. A few of those weapons don't exist yet in the game, but I included them as examples anyway just in case they do get added.

I like the idea of making more detailled combat skills (and adding unarmed too), but I think that's too much detail. I think Rathlords idea looks better, as it doesn't get too complicated.

 

Archery (covering crossbows, bows, and slings since they're all slow moving projectiles impacted heavily by gravity)

Firearms (fast moving projectiles where gravity largely doesn't come into play)

Piercing (everything with a stabbing animation, from knives to spear like objects; a big part of using piercing weapons efficiently is knowing where to stab)

Blunt (same reasoning as piercing, even more easy to generalize)

Slashing (same reasoning as above, again the important bits are more where you slash than the exact kind of weapon)

There are a lot of weapons now, and the skill tree would be giant. A skill for pencils, frying pans, spoons, molotovs, planks and all the other weapons in the game would be a little too much detail.

[Rathlord]

Archery (covering crossbows, bows, and slings since they're all slow moving projectiles impacted heavily by gravity)

Firearms (fast moving projectiles where gravity largely doesn't come into play)

Piercing (everything with a stabbing animation, from knives to spear like objects; a big part of using piercing weapons efficiently is knowing where to stab)

Blunt (same reasoning as piercing, even more easy to generalize)

Slashing (same reasoning as above, again the important bits are more where you slash than the exact kind of weapon)

There are a lot of weapons now, and the skill tree would be giant. A skill for pencils, frying pans, spoons, molotovs, planks and all the other weapons in the game would be a little too much detail.

 

 

True, though I think subcategories might be manageable. All household items could fall under one category (inspired by Dungeons and Dragons): Improvised weapons. Only true weapons would get their own dedicated subcategory.

[EnigmaGrey]

Eh, not sure adding additional skills and complicating the weapon system makes much sense, unless the other skills are to get a similar treatment in the future. But I'm not really sure what TIS wants in that regard, nor if they want weapons to be the focus of the game.

[Impetiso]

 

Archery (covering crossbows, bows, and slings since they're all slow moving projectiles impacted heavily by gravity)

Firearms (fast moving projectiles where gravity largely doesn't come into play)

Piercing (everything with a stabbing animation, from knives to spear like objects; a big part of using piercing weapons efficiently is knowing where to stab)

Blunt (same reasoning as piercing, even more easy to generalize)

Slashing (same reasoning as above, again the important bits are more where you slash than the exact kind of weapon)

There are a lot of weapons now, and the skill tree would be giant. A skill for pencils, frying pans, spoons, molotovs, planks and all the other weapons in the game would be a little too much detail.

 

 

True, though I think subcategories might be manageable. All household items could fall under one category (inspired by Dungeons and Dragons): Improvised weapons. Only true weapons would get their own dedicated subcategory.

 

Yes, I meant that your idea of subcategory skills it's better than weapon skills, because there are a lot of weapons and a skill for every weapon means a lot of skills.

[Rathlord]

Eh, not sure adding additional skills and complicating the weapon system makes much sense, unless the other skills are to get a similar treatment in the future. But I'm not really sure what TIS wants in that regard, nor if they want weapons to be the focus of the game.

 

I'd personally like to see the entire rest of the system get the same treatment. I saw a post the other day (from Lemmy I think?) that stated PZ was originally meant to be more of an RPG than it turned out (like I mentioned above) so I'm curious about what things could be like should that facet of the game be explored.

[Kajin]

Eh, not sure adding additional skills and complicating the weapon system makes much sense, unless the other skills are to get a similar treatment in the future. But I'm not really sure what TIS wants in that regard, nor if they want weapons to be the focus of the game.

I don't think it's too complicated at all. This skill covers knives. That skill covers axes. This one covers blunt clubs like tire irons or baseball bats. This one covers how your character handles melee combat in general and that one covers ranged combat in general. It's not exactly rocket science. And I've sort of been a bit flustered at the overall simplicity of the skill system as it stands. I'd like to see the entire thing overhauled and made more rich with options at some point.

 

I'd personally like to see the entire rest of the system get the same treatment. I saw a post the other day (from Lemmy I think?) that stated PZ was originally meant to be more of an RPG than it turned out (like I mentioned above) so I'm curious about what things could be like should that facet of the game be explored.

 

I kinda like the idea of skill specializations. Each skill type covers the basics of how things are done, but you can choose to specialize in a specific area of study and be really good at it at the expense of locking out other areas of expertise. Like a cook making the choice to specialize in making foods taste really good to boost happiness (Five Star Chef) over other areas like stretching out food reserves by making the most nutritious meals using as little ingredients as you can get by with (Survivor Chef)  or preparing food in such a way that it has a really long shelf life (Preservation Chef).

[EnigmaGrey]

I don't think it's too complicated at all. This skill covers knives. That skill covers axes. This one covers blunt clubs like tire irons or baseball bats. This one covers how your character handles melee combat in general and that one covers ranged combat in general. It's not exactly rocket science. And I've sort of been a bit flustered at the overall simplicity of the skill system as it stands. I'd like to see the entire thing overhauled and made more rich with options at some point.

Yet all of cooking, farming, fishing, carpentry .etc is represented each by a single skill, whereas combat has multiple. Further increasing that while ignoring the others doesn't seem very balanced.

[Kajin]

 

I don't think it's too complicated at all. This skill covers knives. That skill covers axes. This one covers blunt clubs like tire irons or baseball bats. This one covers how your character handles melee combat in general and that one covers ranged combat in general. It's not exactly rocket science. And I've sort of been a bit flustered at the overall simplicity of the skill system as it stands. I'd like to see the entire thing overhauled and made more rich with options at some point.

Yet all of cooking, farming, fishing, carpentry .etc is represented each by a single skill, whereas combat has multiple. Further increasing that while ignoring the others doesn't seem very balanced.

 

I'd like to see everything expanded in the skill system, not just weapons. See above, regarding skill specialties which I think would be a great way to expand upon the non combat skills. The weapons just happened to be what I wanted to talk about when I wrote up this suggestion. I want there to be an involved, robust skill system that survivors can delve into and figure out what best meets their individual needs and/or the needs of the group as a whole because that would make the whole game richer for the experience of it.

 

Non combat skills like cooking or farming could be given sub specialties that enhance on particular aspect of the skill. Combat skills could have various weapon skills that fall under and are enhanced by whichever of the two different general combat skills they happen to be associated with. That's the basic idea of the skill system I'm envisioning, though any expansion into something a little more complex would suit me fine.