Jericoshost

I think there is a cheat mod where you can become undetectable by the AI and have unlimited stamina. You could observe that way, unless it is added officially, but even so.

It's ok, you wrote very clear. However, this has been suggested before. You may like this article: http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/14771-clothing/

if they are i would have no clue about it. if they are, fine. if not fine. it makes no real difference. Some of them are, and a few things already in game are too. Like the really CD day start. If you haven't played Cata DDA, you might like it. It's fun and difficult, like PZ. http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php

there will be the mondoid tomorrow, maybe news there? http://projectzomboid.com/

On a scale from no to yes. yes. All of my yes. Especially the diet one, it could also add/subtrack for experience regarding fitness/strength (Which is in, I hear)

I too suport him and his idea... we just dont see to agree on the especifics for it. Well in truth the specifics aren't down to us, but the development team.

First welcome back from you vacation (hope they were fine ) Second your exemple is only really functional when the player dig dirt from the ground to use it on a roof. It the player plant on the ground that formula dont work because theres no action to activate the spawn/loot code of your formula. I know about composting. I am against it for players initially to avoid the break imersion that a self-sustained impervious fortress creates ingame. And I am not talking about large scale farming. Large scale farming reducing fertility of soil is not about quantity harvested crops on a given field and more about the constant use/reuse of the same field without leting it rest. Also the rate of nutrient loss is entirely based more on the type of crop you sowed on the field than the number of times you sowed the field (the use/reuse influence that but its not the main issue). Some crops can refuel especific nutrients to the soil (one crop rotation technique at work here) and are used for the purpose of keeping the field fertile for years. Also, different types of crops eat different amounts of nutrients from the soil. Its to avoid delving into nutrient consuptiom rates of different types of crops that I have proposed my idea of only different fertility rates per each type of soil. And yes the devs are aiming for realism in the game world mechanics, be it the erosion sistem or anything else. Their only limitation on implementing new ideas and mechanics will be the game engine. First, which example? I don't recall anything about looting. Or how anything wouldn't work on the ground. Second: You said earlier you didn't know how to make fertilizer, were you lying? And compost is a way to negate and control flying fortresses. If we don't have it, we get flying fortresses like we do now. third: already talked about resting, plenty of other dirt to use while a patch of ground rests. fourth: I'm the one who proposed crops eating fertility, and something about different types of soil? (Which you have non-stop said would not work in your earlier posts. so what?) And you said earlier that it would be 'too much' for the game to track. and fifth: You would be surprised what can be coded in the system they use, and what they are capable of, so don't underestimate them. Any problems would be worked out in the IWBUSB, just like every new feature implementation up to this point.

And spiffo's would give 1000000 happiness. I like the ideas here. Especially playing cards, solitaire, card pyramids, and all the other games you could play.

Good vacations to you. Hope you enjoy it (I am in need for a vacation too... T_T) I have not forget the reason for the idea you gave. I like it, but I cannot forget the "whole picture" that this new mechanic would bring. Fertility would be a issue even if the player farm on the ground with a mechanic like this one. Just because the tile is on the ground that dont mean that the tile have unlimited fertility. That's my concern on this matter. I also have not forgoten the zeds. I just ignored then because I was thinking about the whole mechanic in concern with the rest of the game world. Zombies are a treat to anything, not just farming, but they are manageable. The real treat are other survivors and resources to keep your farm going and that would still me a problem even if you farm on the roofs. When creating a new mechanic you must think how that mechanic would work indepent of the rest. You are setting the world and the world goes around whatever you do something or not. The balance is not on the treat of zombies x safety, but on the treat of expending the fertility of the tile and not be able to plant anything in there again. If you add the possibility of creating your own fertilizers or restoring fertility to a tile by using rotten veggies the players would again dont need to worry about farming on the ground. What you need to really balance the whole thing is a field/crop rotation mechanic. That would affect both types of tiles, being then on the ground or not, and would force the player to work 3 to 4 times more just to keep producing his food. If you also add different fertility values to different types of soil presented ingame you also forces the players to try and search all the good earth they need instead of then just filling bags with dirt from anywhere. That's my point. Ok I see your point. But the better soil is the reward for searching hard. And any soil can be used to grow anything, and all require tending eventually. Farm soil just requires less tending for a longer time. Also, I just realized you are probably referring to the 'example' I made in the first post, when you comment on making things 4 times harder. Those numbers were just examples, nothing more. You would only need to fertilize once a week/month (Probably just say month to be nice) with compost, or maybe every 2 months with fertilizer. It would probably be more like fertility = XXXX/1000, not out of 14. it would take a planting or two to deplete a roof tile (That has it's natural fertility, not max fertility), but fertilizer would refill it by a large amount. Also making your own fertiliser is decently simple: it is called composting. Basically you put organic matter in a box/barrel/pile (Food, grass/leaves,poop, broken open bones,paper,egg shells,human flesh,wood,etc) to rot, and you can add worms/bugs to increase this speed. Secondly, you can simply slice up some organic matter and put it straight into the dirt itself (Less effective though, but composting would be a different suggestion after fertility) Many do-it-yourself-er's use these methods because they are cheaper than buying fertilizer and is very effective. My grandma has been growing her own crops for years in her back yard and she composts basically everything. http://eartheasy.com/grow_compost.html (it also talks a bit about depleted soil and using compost to replenish it, even though it is a RL problem I still see plenty of on ground gardens around. Roof-top gardens are rarer for a reason: More work and maintenance.) And yes, on the ground tiles would have a fertility. But it would be much easier to manage due to the natural abundance of nutrients found in a much deeper amount of soil. As well, when rain comes it naturally re-balances/re-distributes the nutrients and minerals over time, along with access to naturally occurring bugs/vermin dying and decaying constantly the fertility of the soil is constantly replenished in one way or another. If you go outside right now and dig just a few inches into the ground you are basically guaranteed to run into some bugs right away, and bugs too, carry nutrients with them and process more. Now get access to a roof and look for bugs, or other sources of nutrients for your plants. There are going to be far fewer. On a roof farm (In RL, not in game), you would have boxes with about a foot of soil (Not the few inches of dirt rows you see in-game), you would add fertilizers every few weeks/months of growing. Meanwhile, on the ground there are plenty of sources of nutrients already available. You can grow quite a lot with little maintenance, my mom would usually work in the garden once or twice a week, and it was a pretty good sized garden, about 30ish feet by 30 feet. In a back yard garden, my mom and grandma would fertilize maybe once or twice a year if at all, from a compost box. I left a link for nutrient cycles, consider it like so: On the ground you have a complete loop, on a roof you have a closed loop. Nutrients go out, but have no way of getting in on a roof. That is why roof top gardens are typically a community thing, and not a solo-job, it really does take a lot of work. Thats why they are on apartment towers and are tended by the tenants, or on company towers and have a dedicated garden staff. Meanwhile a back-yard garden is a one-person kind of job, because fertility comes back on it's own with a little help and time. As well, from the reading I have done ( see below V) it seems nutrient loss is mostly a problem for 'Large scale' farming (EX one farm for 1000 or more people in a modern for-profit farm, as opposed to one farm for 1-10 people after NPC's and an apocalypse) so the typical on ground farms would basically take care of themselves with little more maintenance than pc's do now. And the largest form of nutrient loss (Which again mostly effects large scale farms) is nutrients being washed away into oceans and sewers, it is caused by over tilling large areas, not the small areas people will inhabit. The dirt there is surrounded by far more dirt that is un-disturbed and will hold onto the nutrients that would be 'washed away' otherwise. Example: Take a look here: http://pzmap.crash-override.net/#0.3355328423322842,0.12783120098098566,31.947999937062278 find the north farm, and compare the size of the fields there, to the size of a back yard with a fence (That is about the size of a player garden + an extra bunch of tiles) And if dirt loses it's fertility and you don't want to compost, leave it in open ground. NOW before you say it takes years, go look at that farm again. See how large it is? It takes a long time because there are LITERAL tons of dirt to 'rest'. When it is just a tile? 10 tiles? 20 tiles, even. How long is that going to take if about 200-300 tiles would take several years or even just a year? it won't take long at all, at most a month or two. And running out of dirt? I want you to go back to the PZ map, and look at a yard. How many dirt tiles do you see in just that one yard? While one set of tiles 'rest' you could use another set. There are literally thousands of usable tiles on the map. If you can manage a farm now, this system won't be much harder or complex that anyone who can already survive long enough to use a farm already would be unable to figure it out with a tutorial and some practice. And about people finding it to complex: There will always be people who can't figure things out. An example from a youtuber I like: ...and she plays videogames for a living. There will always be those who will have problems. Is this idea noob friendly? No. Is project zomboid? No. By the time a person has gotten good enough at this game to start worrying about farming, they will be skilled enough that it won't be a problem. Think about it: How many first timers are going to get to their first harvest (Let alone their first fertility running out) on a first try? A second? When a person is skilled enough to survive PZ, they are skilled enough to survive farming. If you want crop rotation so badly, go make a thread and suggest it. My system is for a survivor in an apocalypse, not a farmer handling a modern farm for a thousand people and profit. You are feeding you and a small group. And the makers of the game (According to you) are going for realism so they will have to add this (Or similar) in eventually anyways. And about each tile needing a code: Same as foraging: Dig tile > Tile value (1,2 or 3) Value = give dirt type 1,2, or 3 Only brought up when you dig, not tracked every tick. Fertility resupply? Add fertility value X every XX ticks for any tilled tile on Z level 0, Max value = 1 2 or 3 (Depending on the tile below the tilled tile) Yes it wouldn't work outside the reality bubble, but what does? Eventually they will fix the reality bubble effects. And fertility would be drawn from much like water is on current plants in game when used, you could probably copy/paste most of the code. And I never said plants would not grow (In my main post), I said they would have a large chance to not grow at 0 fertility. Unrealistic, but it is nicer and rain/dirty water would give a little bit of nutrients, so as long as you keep the plant hydrated it will still have a chance to grow, but it would probably give fewer, smaller crops. PS: multi-fertility would be way too complex for the game to track, so if you thought I am talking about that: No. I said it could be an alternative way. The game only has to track one fertility for tilled tiles. Non tilled tiles would have a value of 1,2 or 3 which would determine fert value of the tile when tilled or put in a bag. And you said to just look only at this mechanic (After talking about the big picture?) 1 Get dirt, 2 use dirt, 3 dirt runs out, 4 fix dirt, repeat. OR 1 get dirt, 2 use dirt, 3 dirt runs out, 4 find new dirt, repeat. Seems easy enough to me. And adds a layer of realism that is easily managed. Now the current system: 1 get dirt, 2 use dirt. And that's why flying fortresses work when they shouldn't. http://www.slideshare.net/ecumene/ecosystems-3-nutrient-cycle-presentation http://www.slideshare.net/vsmrt/nutrient-cycle?next_slideshow=1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient_cycle http://www.sswm.info/category/concept/nutrient-cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogeochemical_cycle I think I was going to write something else but I forgot it. Oh well, later I guess. EDIT: I also found a picture which shows which zones foraging is implemented in. The zones. http://i.imgur.com/43fPOX8.png

It seens you missed the point. You keep using foraging as an example but foraging is a simple "execute" action that is based on conditional "IF". It dont need more information than the header of the tile and based on the header of the tile the formula for loot change based on you skill x tile type. Juts that. Its a code that is activated on demand, being the demand the action "Forage Tile" Farming is a much more complex code in the game, with the code keeping track of irrigation level of the tile, type of crop, if the crop is healthy or not and how many days the tile have been seeded. Also you seen to forget that in the event that the devs add fertility as a issue to roof farming tiles they would be forced to do the same to non-roof tiles just to keep it balanced and avoid a "happy happy joy joy" by the players avoiding planting in the roofs/platforms. Its in that moment that issues for the code like different tile proprierties and crop rotation and the number of tiles to keep track come into play. The devs will have the problem of deciding: "Do we try to make this really similar to real farming and add different fertility levels to different types of soil or not?" "Do we integrate it into the erosion system?" Depending on the answers we could have the necessity of crop rotation or not. Also you forget that the RNG for loot in the game is unforgiving. You dont find that much fertilizer (I have pretty much looted half of muldraugh already and only found 3 bags of fertilizer) nor you can make fertilizer in the game (if you can tell me how). And the final nail in the coffin: The devs are trying to make the mechanics ingame as close to reality as possible I am trying to make it perfect? No because theres no perfection in the world. I am trying to make it balanced before implementing it? Yes I am because that is how good planning is done, be it in a company or in personal life. I dont need to punch a knife to know that I will hurt myself, I can imagine that I will get hurt. The whole point of the sugestion section of the forums is to try and imagine new content/game mechanics and short out any possible issues the sugestion would have or need to be adressed to be a viable option to the game. Just that. Ok so I am going on vacation today, so I won't be able to make a proper response right now, however before I leave I had to apologize. When I wrote my last response I was annoyed at other things and used more aggravating wording than I meant. I will try and continue this unless the thread is dead at that point. As well, the whole point of this idea is to nerf roof farming. So I'm not the only one who missed a point. If you plant on the ground, you have literal feet of dirt full of nutrients and fertility. On a roof you do not. The real balance is if you are on the ground and farming you have zombies. Not sure how you forgot those. They threaten the farmer, and they threaten the crops with disease and with trampling. So it would be balanced for you to not really have to worry as much about fertility on the ground. When farming on a roof, you have a few inches of dirt to grow things in. Fertility is the main issue because zombies are unlikely. Seems pretty balanced to me. Safety, or ease of management. Just like many things in the game, it is a trade between X and safety. Goodbye for now.

Nope they are going big! Just like we will be able to!

And again, only tilled tiles would have to be kept track of (And dug up tiles). The difference between roof and ground is the ground will naturally replenish over time. You would only have to track the z level (Height) of the tilled/dug up tile. If Z = 0, natural replenish = on, If z= 1+, natural replenish = off. And Z level tracking is already in for zombies which FAR outnumber any amount of farming a player will ever be able to do. That is only true if the devs dont implement different fertility levels by different types of soil and if they dont nerf farming as whole by implementing the necessity to rotate fields. Remember the links I gave? A game mechanic that simulate this would make players cry over the difficulty of farming effectively. Mind explaining your answer? How is it only true if they don't include different fertility rates? Explain. Because I already have explained how mine works. Fertility is tracked by area, just like zombie spawning in Urban VS non Urban, just like how where you can Forage is tracked by area as Foragable VS non-foragable. Leave a dirt tile on farm-land it becomes farm land soil, leave it in the woods and it becomes wood-land soil, leave it in the suburbs it becomes urban soil. (Not 100% realistic I admit, but then IT.IS.A.GAME. and a multiplayer game at that as well as single player.) AND to put the last nail in the coffin: You can raise fertility by using fertilizer and food/rotten food. So unlike what you just said, and I quote"...nerf farming as whole by implementing the necessity to rotate fields": Crop rotation is in absolutely no way necessary for farming, via the system I have proposed. And in the original topic post, I only mentioned crop rotation as a side option. I didn't even flesh out that idea, and I still made it simpler than what you seem to be trying to propose. My system is a simplification of how it would work, just like the game is a simplification of how a zombie apocalypse would work (As it stands now). It could be added, with a bit of time. Just like any other feature. PS: You can raise the fertility of any soil (THAT you have tilled) to max level, even urban soil. So you don't HAVE to treck out to a farm to be able to grow things, just grab some NPK. Really not seeing how this would make any player who can play the game as is so unable to even, that they would cry. PSS: By the way, you seem to be focusing on making the idea perfect and balanced BEFORE adding to the game. Thats not how it works. We can only balance it through proper playtesting, just like any new mechanic or idea. The suggestions in this forum don't need to be perfect down to the coding (Which is done by the PZ staff, not me) they just need to be good ideas.

First: welcome to the forums. Second, they are planning to expand the map, as well: http://projectzomboid.com/blog/2015/07/the-creative-revolution/ Soon players will be able to add onto it themselves. And also you may want to look at this as well: http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/192-commonly-suggested-suggestions-read-before-posting/ And again, welcome to the forums!

And again, only tilled tiles would have to be kept track of (And dug up tiles). The difference between roof and ground is the ground will naturally replenish over time. You would only have to track the z level (Height) of the tilled/dug up tile. If Z = 0, natural replenish = on, If z= 1+, natural replenish = off. And Z level tracking is already in for zombies which FAR outnumber any amount of farming a player will ever be able to do.

This is very neat, also thanks for the link.

I wan't talking about foraging the action: I was talking of the areas that are foragable vs non-foragable. It is determined by area, just like fertility. It too would be an automated thing. Even so its based on stats that would change with time, affected by the erosion mechanic and players/NPCs actions. It doesn't HAVE to be effected by erosion. Yes, it would make it more realistic, but it would also be far to crazy to code (For now). Anything more?

I wan't talking about foraging the action: I was talking of the areas that are foragable vs non-foragable. It is determined by area, just like fertility. It too would be an automated thing.

That could be a solution indeed but you have the problem of discarting/remove the dirt tiles you created and that is something the game lack so far. Also theres the problem of different type of soils and their innerent fertility. Its true you can plant flowers and herbs anywhere, but that dont mean the soil will hold the plant for long. That varies with each region/type of soil. That's the reason farm locations are so difficult to find and why farmers do "crop rotation" to keep using a given area for decades or centuries. Summing it up, it means that the devs would have to apply a fertility rate to every single tile of natural soil in the game and keep track of it and not when someone have tiled then, but because the environment would affect then as well... remember the erosion system? That would affect the fertility of soil tiles as well dont you think? As I said the idea is great but implementing it would be a nightmare Well implementing it 'that' way would be a nightmare yes. Fertility would be determined by area, in the same way foragable areas are determined by non-foragable areas. When you use a shovel to grab depleted dirt and put it on farmland, it will over-time gain the fertility of farmland. Not 100% realistic, but then neither is farming full grown tomato or potato plants in what looks to be 3 rows of maybe 6 inches of dirt. To sum up: You don't have to keep track of each individual tile, large areas would be kept track of along with the small number of tiles players/npc's could/would grab (Farming is alot of work, so even if someone grabbed a lot of them they wouldn't be able to keep up with it.) in the same way area's you can forage are kept track of without assigning each tile with a foragable code.

The only tiles you would need to keep track of are tilled tiles and dug up tiles. Not every tile.

In a future update, you will be able to make your own maps in creative mode, for single and multiplayer. Eventually when it comes out, whenever that is as no ETA has been given.

Where did you get the idea of 'Needing' to make plant holders? If you read the post, you can just swap dirt occasionally. Or re-fertilize. As well we are not talking about a large self-sustaining roof top garden for decoration. Plants chosen for a Rooftopgarden (RTG) are not typically food bearing, which would drain out nutrients faster than a typical garden, and are typically picked to 'live together' and supply the appropriate cycle of nutrients using an exceedingly complicated system of automatic water cycling systems and fertilizers. As well, they use thicker dirt and THOSE RTG do actually use wood containers, unlike our current farms.

Exactly! Especially out of their flying fortresses, I just... Can't. Like I could make one, but I would never. I thought of this idea when I played don't starve, you have to fertilise farms for them to work, and then I remembered how my mom used to garden, then I remember how I researched how to grow food (I am a mild survivalist tbh) and then I wrote the idea out.

Would be an new suggestion, maybe add pots whitch are moveable but have an bit reduced size, and an lower harvest. to balance, they could be more water efficient, due to the water being contained in the pot.

I think he means that the erosion would take over and humanity would lose most of its human like places to the wilderness which would include tall grass and weeds through the cracks in the pavement and all that. I think it could double the chances of foraging in suburban neighborhoods Like 20% for rat/mouse after a good amount of erosion 10% chance of frog 30% chance of worm what if you could then find things like trash when in the city. like bags and possibly empty bottles. could be useful? you could also find things like jars, clothes, cans and other stuff that you could make use of. this would also be useful since some items like jars are oddly rare. I know right? it's like no-body in Kentucky has ever heard of a jar. Or the U-gnomes have expanded their business strategy.

A very effective strategy in PZ is to get some dirt, and bring it to a secluded roof top, then survive indefinitely. Or, you know... A floating fortress of anti-gravity. That, uh... Too.Yeah. 100% legit.Anyways: A way to add some realism and balance this out would be for dirt to have a 'fertility' value that a plant draws from when harvested. Example: you grab a dirt tile from suburbs with a fertitlity of 14. You plant potatoes which offer 30 food points (Hunger reduction = FP) Lets say we divide given hunger by 10 to determine required fertility to grow a stage, giving it 3. Each time it grows a stage it reduces this value from the dirt's fertility. There are 5 stages: (From wiki) Seedling doesn't count as a stage which reduces though. 1.Seedling (Don't minus for this stage) 2.Young 3.Fully Grown 4.Ready to Harvest 5.Seed-bearing So the total reduction is 12 from 14, leaving 2. Now, growing a plant in semi-infertile soil will cause it to give far less food, and be unable to produce seeds. And when the infertility reaches 0, plants have a large chance to fail to grow. How to fix this? Use fertiliser and/or rotten food to increase fertility. rotten food (Or even un-rotten?) will give fertility based on it's FP. Fertilizer will give a huge bonus (Imagine like +20-30) or: Get new dirt, placing old dirt back on grass will allow it to slowly regain fertility over time. Another potential way to go about this is to use a multi-fertility system, where dirt is considered to have (Lets say) 4 types of fertility. Each crop would take a bit from each type (More from some, less from others) and each crop replenishes different fertility's while taking from the others. Allowing a PC to use crop rotation like a real farmer. Though how you would do this in about 6 inches (With generous rounding) of dirt is out of my experience. Now about dirt: Dirt from different areas should give different starting fertility. Dirt from the suburbs has all of the products from the suburbs in it to start, cleaning products, gardening pesticides and weed killers, car oil, and constantly being washed out into streets (The inherent nutrients can be washed out in rain and drained into sewers instead of into more dirt.) along with many more problems inherent to suburban gardening. Dirt from the woods is better because it has more natural decomposition depositing nutrients, more animals contributing to the nutrients, and fewer pollutants in side. Dirt from a farm would have the highest starting fertility, as this dirt would have all the required fertilization already added, have been tended and kept clean by professionals, etc. And if you mixed dirt types in a bag you would get mixed dirt, better than suburbs but a little less than woods. AND (This part is important) Dirt directly connected to the ground (Grass tiles more specifically) will constantly gain 1-3 fertility per day/week up to their natural max (For that area). This dirt gains more fertility when it rains than on dry days/weeks. Over farming can still deplete this dirt, but it would take a ton of farming in a very short time. And with farming knowledge you would be able to tell a dirt tile's fertility, but even at lvl 1 you should be able to tell when dirt is out of fertility (If for no other reason than just to stop new players from ripping out their hair and blaming the game for why there crops stopped growing for 'no reason') So what does everyone think? I did a quick search, and looked through common suggestions but I didn't see anything.