Discussion about Changelogs and Testing should be handled

[selfmega]

Hey, devs

 

I am starting to see a very disturbing trend in development of this game

It seems to me that you care less about the game with every update

 

this week's mondoid (November 10, 2014) follows:

 

Build 29 can super-soon be considered final – wrapped in a pretty pink bow, and adorned with a single rotten cherry etc. All we’re waiting on are a few logistical issues [ie. team members not available to be at their keyboards simultaneously on this fair Mondoid] to release its fourth hotfix on Steam. As such, we’re looking at tomorrow (Tuesday) – and from that should be in a position to update Desura later in the week. As we said on Twitter a few days ago, we apologise for the hold-up in all this.

 

 

But, the update was pushed only on friday, late at night

what is this? an outright lie?

or your members couldn't get to their keyboards all week?

 

And even now, when the data was pushed through steam I can't count this update as released, because there is no changelog

you might as well pushed 100MB of zeros, no one can check it, because no one knows what to check

 

And what is with that 100% CPU load in MP server bug? which was "already fixed it but not commited" on 25th of october?

I'm guessing getting to keyboard is a real challenge for this team...

 

In general - not lovely, man, not lovely at all..

[Madigari]

I haven't noticed any trend like that at all.

[RoboMat]

But, the update was pushed only on friday, late at night

what is this? an outright lie?

or your members couldn't get to their keyboards all week?

 

No, it is just the usual "can't predict the future especially in game-developing" thing. That's why usually there isn't any fixed ETA (just SOON) and also why the mondoid doesn't say "we are 100% sure that we can release on Tuesday" but instead: "we’re looking at [...] Tuesday [...]".

 

If you have further questions about the release policy feel free to ask.

 

Also, welcome to the forums.

[selfmega]

 

 

No, it is just the usual "can't predict the future especially in game-developing" thing. That's why usually there isn't any fixed ETA (just SOON) and also why the mondoid doesn't say "we are 100% sure that we can release on Tuesday" but instead: "we’re looking at [...] Tuesday [...]".

 

I wouldn't have any problem with this late "release" (if you can call it this way) if there was no estimate, and when they say that only issue is the "logistical" one I beleive that that the content of update is already finished. How else would you interpret it? Why even post the estimate if you are not 100% sure? Especially when they are promoting "no ETA" policy themselves?

 

And not posting the changelog seems to be half-assed job at best, if not malicious.

Needless to say i am not happy with your "can't predict the future in development" excuse. You can, even if you are average developer, and you MUST do it to be able to stick with development plan, which, i'm sure they have. (That given if you don't want to end up like Spacebase)

 

I would be happy to hear from the person who wrote that mondoid.

[RoboMat]

I wouldn't have any problem with this late "release" (if you can call it this way) if there was no estimate, and when they say that only issue is the "logistical" one I beleive that that the content of update is already finished. How else would you interpret it? Why even post the estimate if you are not 100% sure? Especially when they are promoting "no ETA" policy themselves?

Because an estimate shows that it will be released "soon" instead of next year

 

And not posting the changelog seems to be half-assed job at best, if not malicious.

You mean this changelog which even was quoted just above your first post?

 

Needless to say i am not happy with your "can't predict the future in development" excuse. You can, even if you are average developer, and you MUST do it to be able to stick with development plan, which, i'm sure they have. (That given if you don't want to end up like Spacebase)

I disagree. One of the beautiful things about indie game development is, that you can take the time to fix bugs or flesh out a certain feature because you DON'T have fixed time constraints.

[selfmega]

 

You mean this changelog which even was quoted just above your first post?

 

That's a changelog for the previous version. How can you miss that being this forum's moderator?

Have you read the thread at all?

[RoboMat]

Have you read the thread at all?

I did and I am here to help you with your confusion.

29.4

Build 29 can super-soon be considered final – wrapped in a pretty pink bow, and adorned with a single rotten cherry etc. All we’re waiting on are a few logistical issues [ie. team members not available to be at their keyboards simultaneously on this fair Mondoid] to release its fourth hotfix on Steam. As such, we’re looking at tomorrow (Tuesday) – and from that should be in a position to update Desura later in the week. As we said on Twitter a few days ago, we apologise for the hold-up in all this.

29.4 -> 29 Hotfix #4:

UPCOMING (no Estimated Time of Arrival as usual) hotfix #4 :

*Uses Jedi-Mind-Tricks* This is the changelog you are looking for.

Also you should watch your tone a bit. It's not really lovely attacking the one who is trying to help you

[RobertJohnson]

Only one rule over there : be lovely. So far you're not lovely at all selfmega.

 

The 29.4 was in internal testing when we did this mondoid, that mean you can expect bugs in it that need to be fixed before any public release (even IWBUMS)

[selfmega]

Only one rule over there : be lovely

Does it mean "no critics for devs allowed" ?

You should then make it more clean in the rules. 

[tzaeru]

Only one rule over there : be lovely. So far you're not lovely at all selfmega.

 

The 29.4 was in internal testing when we did this mondoid, that mean you can expect bugs in it that need to be fixed before any public release (even IWBUMS)

 

I don't mean to sound rude, but that doesn't that imply that there were more than merely logistical issues then?

 

I also got the impression from the last Mondoid that 29.4 was actually already done and all that remained, was uploading it to Steam.

 

In any case -- is the fix-list posted on 28th October the full list of things that actually got into 29.4?

 

 

Only one rule over there : be lovely.

Does it mean "no critics for devs allowed" ?

You should then make it more clean in the rules. 

 

 

The line between being "critical" and being rude is not a thin one, my friend.

[RobertJohnson]

 

 

 

*Uses Jedi-Mind-Tricks* This is the changelog you are looking for.

No. It is a changelog for version 29.3

you would know it if you followed the releases

 

 

What Robomat posted IS the change log of the hotfix #4, the latest release on IWBUMS. It's also what I posted in the OP.

 

 

Does it mean "no critics for devs allowed" ?

You should then make it more clean in the rules. 

 

 

If you follow this forum a little, you'll see we're not against critics AT ALL, that what make us progress. There's a way of how to say it.

Something can be ready to release and still have bugs we didn't found before, hence why we have an internal testing group to ensure the build is good, if a bug happen here and take some times to fix, the release will be delayed, even if we thought it was 99% good.

[selfmega]

 

 

What Robomat posted IS the change log of the hotfix #4, the latest release on IWBUMS. It's also what I posted in the OP.

yeah, yeah. I got it

the fact that the same list was in thread before the 29.4 release confused me

i naively (?) thought that you can make changelog only after the actual release

 

what about the 100% CPU on MP server? this is arguably the most critical issue right now, the multiplayer community cant grow if running the server is associated with such a pain

[RobertJohnson]

You're the first telling me this happen again...

 

What's your OS/Spec ? Anything in the console ?

[Brybry]

what about the 100% CPU on MP server? this is arguably the most critical issue right now, the multiplayer community cant grow if running the server is associated with such a pain

 

That should be fixed. It's probably not in the list because it was mostly discussed in a forum thread and not on the tracker (even though I believe there are multiple tickets that reference it.)

 

I guess I'll pull 29.4 today and check. This thread holds the discussion, reproduction steps, and notification of fix.

 

Edit: pulled IWBUMS, ran my test case, no crash. I'd say it's fixed.

[selfmega]

You're the first telling me this happen again...

 

What's your OS/Spec ? Anything in the console ?

 

[snip]

 

oh... crap.. forgot you gotta be lovely

 

ok... here goes

 

Dear RobertJohnson,

 

I love the game that you and your team are creating

Needless to say, I am concerned about this game's future, and wish all the best for the development team, and hope the game will have a great future

Last month I discovered a very annoying issue with a multiplayer server on my linux x64_86 host.

I have it configured to be a public server.

The thing is... the server becomes non-responsive after a day of service.

That includes a failure to carry out any direct console commands and denial of service to all the clients

At first I thought that the server is requiring more RAM to function, and I raised the limit of java machine to 10G (I have 16G of ECC memory on board).

The issue was there nevertheless

Then I thought maybe my openJDK is causing the problem, and I replaced it with Oracle version. 

Unfortunately, I got the same result.

In this light, I cannot continue hosting of Project Zombioid dedicated server, because I don't know when it will become non-responsve, and I can't keep an eye on it 24/7.

I am hoping that this issue will be fixed soon.

 

Best regards, 

selfmega

[RoboMat]

I already warned you plenthy of times, so here is your first warning point.

[Brybry]

In this light, I cannot continue hosting of Project Zombioid dedicated server, because I don't know when it will become non-responsve, and I can't keep an eye on it 24/7.

I am hoping that this issue will be fixed soon.

 

Best regards, 

selfmega

 

Try 29.4 in the IWBUMS branch as I'm pretty sure that server hang is fixed as I said in my previous post. Since you experienced the issue a month ago it isn't necessarily relevant anymore.

In the future if your server becomes unresponsive/hangs you can use jstack to print a stack trace that you can use when you report the issue to the devs so they can fix it. They won't necessarily have ever seen your issue and need a certain level of information to be able to fix it.

[selfmega]

Oh yeah

here comes the censure

I DID need to leave it in. Why would you think otherwise?

 

What a convenient excuse for a censorship - you gotta be lovely

you can ban virtually anything under this flag

Why am I not surprised?

Oh yeah

here comes the censure

I DID need to leave it in. Why would you think otherwise?

 

What a convenient excuse for a censorship - you gotta be lovely

you can ban virtually anything under this flag

Why am I not surprised?

Oh yeah

here comes the censure

I DID need to leave it in. Why would you think otherwise?

 

What a convenient excuse for a censorship - you gotta be lovely

you can ban virtually anything under this flag

Why am I not surprised?

[Kirrus]

*I'm typing furiously, if everyone could give me a chance to finish typing, I'd appreciate it *

[EnigmaGrey]

*I'm typing furiously, if everyone could give me a chance to finish typing, I'd appreciate it *

No EG, don't take the bait!

[Kirrus]

 

*I'm typing furiously, if everyone could give me a chance to finish typing, I'd appreciate it *

No EG, don't take the bait!

 

 

Naughty EG! Bad Eg! No cookies for you!

[Kirrus]

selfmega

 

Firstly, this is an alpha-state game. Expect bugs. The devs are actually fixing far more than any normal dev process would. I'm not sure your knowledge base, but for bit of background; Normally, programming any software, you leave the bug-hunting & fixing to last. This stage, alpha, is when you're working on getting features in the game. The only bugs that would normally get fixed, are those that stop you from adding more features.

 

Beta stage is the stage at which you go bughunting, after you've finished adding all the features. You then start testing the game, top to bottom, looking for bugs.

 

The IndieStone are an alpha-funded dev. Which means, they're technically actually mixing alpha, beta and release states all in one. That means, bug testing is under way by the dev team, and also the internal (and public) testing groups.

 

Regarding the specific bug you've run into, you can get access to the 29.4 build yourself right now. Just follow the instructions here, which detail how to access the currently-in-testing unstable version;

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/4183-iwbums-the-i-will-backup-my-save-branch/

 

In fact, the title of this very thread indicates that the 29.4 build is in the IWBUMS test phase. Before you complain about server problems again, please first at least try the IWBUMS build on your server, and see if it solves your problem.

 

If you still have problems after that, as afore mentioned, this is Alpha software. Bugs are expected. However, that does not mean the dev team doesn't spend a tonn of effort and work fixing bugs. Go have a look at the changelogs here if you think otherwise;

http://pzwiki.net/wiki/Version_history

Build 26 should show just how many bugs have been squished, it's not like we *like* bugs in released software.

 

There are a lot of very smart people here, all working towards a common goal. If you run into a bug, and it's not fixed yet, the right thing to do is one of the following, in order of they type of response we'd like worst, to best, from our perspective:

a) Stop playing the game 6 months. We'll almost-certainly have a report of the bug from someone else, and there's a good chance a fix will be in during this process.

b) Stop playing the game, report the bug, and wait a few months. There's a good chance someone'll help us pin down the bug, and we'll get it fixed.

c) Report the bug, and work with us till it's fixed. We've a nice bugtracker -- see the (Tracker) link up above. Read this, it'll give you a bit of background in how bug-hunting works, and how we can work together to deploy a fix.

 

 

Now, we *strongly* suspect your bug is fixed already, in the version of the software awaiting testing. If you haven't tested your game on that version, and complain here again that we're not working on it, I will suspend you. If it's not fixed, that's not a sign that there's anything majorly wrong with how we work, it's just you've found an edge case. Software development at this level is *insanely* complex, bugs are to be expected, and aren't worth throwing a tantrum over.

 

 

If you post something that isn't lovely, and realise, and remove it, all good. Everyone makes mistakes, even mods and admins. Saying that, if you post something that isn't lovely, and then realise it, and then simply strike it through, that's not being lovely, since you're leaving your Not Being Lovely on the forums. The moderation team will respond as if you left it unstruck, since it's effectively still in existence. We work very hard to keep this a friendly, helpful space for everyone, and we work very hard to not have to ban anyone.

 

Regarding censorship, this is not a free-speach area. You do not have a right to say whatever you like, and we will remove anything not lovely. We have a set of rules that all bounce off of our one, main, golden rule. Be Lovely.

 

Finally, please note, a warning is not censorship. This is us warning you, you're breaking the rules, please stop. Think of it like the timeout a mother may give an unruly child. We try very hard not to give formal warnings, and not to suspend or ban people. We'll gladly work with you to ensure you don't get warned, you don't get posts removed for ranting at us. However, we will not accept you insulting the mod team, the developers, any of the other volunteers, or any of the members on this forum.

 

Remember, you're talking to other humans, the words you read and the people you're interacting with have feelings, worries, pains, and stresses, just like you. The dev team aren't stupid, and a lot of them have a lot of experience in game development, including AAA games. The mod team will respond if you insult anyone here, even if you insult without meaning to.

 

In other words, make sure you're Being Lovely, Or Else.

 

*Stops typing, wafts smoke away from keyboard *

 

tl;dr Be Lovely. Or Else.

*Hands EG a plate of double chocolate chip cookies*

[selfmega]

Oh shi.. Do I get to post now?

 

OK, now to the next topic

 

So, correct me if I'm wrong here

RobertJohnson posted the changelog (http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/10536-iwbums-build-294/?p=143148) on 28 of october. that's a list of bugs that supposed to be fixed at that point, and should go to 29.4 release.

That is confirmed by the status of all those bugs in tracker - they all were updated prior oct 28

On 14th of november we suddenly realize that those was the ONLY bugfixes that made it to 29.4 release

What was it? devs already knew on oct 28 all that bugfixes will 100% go into release?

Or I am right with the assumption that those bugs were already fixed?

If I am right - here is the next question -

What was the team doing all the remaining 17 days from 28 oct to 14 nov?

 

 

[RoboMat]

What was the team doing all the remaining 17 days from 28 oct to 14 nov?

 

Probably working on all the awesome features for Build 30 or saving the world.

 

You see, if you check out the develop branch you will see that in the example image above only one feature made it into v1.0. But the other feature branch (the one on the bottom) is still worked on. It will be merged into the develop and later on in a new release branch once it is done.

 

That's how all software development works more or less and it means that the team can work on a lot of things without needing to put them in a release for a long time.

 

Take the npcs for example. They are pretty much a WIP for several months now, but you won't find any of the progress in the current release. Why? Because science and software development.

 

I hope this answers your question.

[nasKo]

So, they just knew that only those bugs will make it into release after testing and all the stuff

No bugs were returned, none were added, just a happy coincidence, heh?

I don't really understand what you are getting at.

We wouldn't know if bugs returned without a new build. That's one of the reasons why we are releasing new versions.

You are complaining about a bug that was fixed but said fix was not in a playable build yet.

Please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, give it another shot if you want to and then come back, letting us know if it is fixed or not.

Right now, you just cannot know if it is fixed, if you haven't tested the new version, selfmega.