Weapon Stat Overhaul

[knightshousegames]

It might be interesting to rework how weapons are classified. Currently the classifications feel a little inconsistent, and lead to some dominant strategies

 

For example, Short Blunt and Long Blunt are different categories, but 1 handed and 2 handed axes both use the Axe stat, making axes, a category that is already strong, even stronger.

 

And realistically, theres only so many ways you can swing an object, no matter what it is, so that experience should transfer between types of weapon in some way.

 

So what I propose are the following categories:

 

Short - Applies to all 1 handed weapons

Long - Applies to all 2 handed weapons

Cut - Applies to blades, like cleavers and swords

Chop - Applies to axes

Piercing - Applies to stabbing weapons, like knives and spears

Blunt - Applies to all blunt objects

 

In this paradigm, every weapon falls into 2 categories, one based on it's length and one based on it's method of dealing damage. The bonus currently applied to damage based on experience level could be halved, but applied twice, once for each category.

 

This way, experience transfers between weapon types on some level, like if you are a crowbar main, but have to switch to a fireman's axe mid-mission, the experience accumulated in Long will give you at least some boost in damage with the axe and you aren't left basically starting from scratch. Same if you have to switch from a crowbar to a nightstick, as the experience in Blunt would carry over in that case.

 

It would be a relatively small change, and wouldn't even increase the current number of categories in the game, but would increase depth and nuance in the current system dramatically, and would more accurately classify the weaponry in the game.

Edited August 8, 2023 by knightshousegames

[getstoopid]

I like that idea! The only thing I'd throw in for discussion is that a cleaver should be "chop" and not "cut" in my opinion

[knightshousegames]

32 minutes ago, getstoopid said:

I like that idea! The only thing I'd throw in for discussion is that a cleaver should be "chop" and not "cut" in my opinion

I was just using that as an example as a "cut" type knife like the game already currently has, where short blades are actually divided into 2 categories, cutting and thrusting, but it's not really represented directly in the game. Another inconsistency

 

Honestly it would be nice if some knives cut or thrust depending on range or number of enemies in range, but thats might be a story for another time.

[PoshRocketeer]

Fully agree  that weapons need another pass. Most weapons are damn near identical to one another aside from a really minor damage increase/decrease. On short blunts, for example, the vast majority of weapons will always kill in the same number of hits regardless of your Short Blunt skill, with the only exceptions being the absolute weakest and absolute strongest examples. Weapons in general need some kind of pass to give them a purpose outside of just looking different from one another, the slight variation in weight and durability  is not enough to justify having a bunch of weapons that do essentially the same damage but otherwise perform nearly identically.

[knightshousegames]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:51 PM, PoshRocketeer said:

Fully agree  that weapons need another pass. Most weapons are damn near identical to one another aside from a really minor damage increase/decrease. On short blunts, for example, the vast majority of weapons will always kill in the same number of hits regardless of your Short Blunt skill, with the only exceptions being the absolute weakest and absolute strongest examples. Weapons in general need some kind of pass to give them a purpose outside of just looking different from one another, the slight variation in weight and durability  is not enough to justify having a bunch of weapons that do essentially the same damage but otherwise perform nearly identically.

To be fair, theres a certain point where abstraction is necessary.

 

If you got hit from behind full force with a saucepan vs a baseball bat, you aren't going to notice that significant of a difference, your brain is still scrambled eggs either way.

 

The stat differences aren't super noticeable in ideal conditions, most kills happen in 1-3 hits when your character is fresh with any half decent weapon, it's when you are wounded and tired is when you really notice the stat bonuses, which is when they come in clutch. When you are surrounded, have a laceration on your right hand,, a scratch on your right upper arm, are winded and a little sleepy is when you really feel the difference between Lv 0 Axe and Lv 5 Axe.

[Kavke]

I like this concept over but I would make some changes:

 

Short Weapons and Long Weapons (Call them "Types") shouldn't refer to how many hands you use, but the actual weapon, so a long weapon should be usable one-handed, albeit with strength and crit penalties.

 

I could also refine for the other sub-types, call them "Classes" should be:

• Slashing instead of 'cutting';
• Cleaving instead of 'chopping';
• Piercing is good
• Bludgeoning for 'blunt' because otherwise we have one weapon class that isn't an adverb like the others.
• I would also add 'Blocking' for the possibility of improvised shields sourced from the environment or made by players, they could have an effect on block chance from attacks from the front (or even a defense bonus for attacks from behind when worn on the back, attacks with shields would be defined as 'bludgeoning' because that's what they are).

If we would like to take this one step further, we could treat single-wielding and dual-wielding as yet another modifier, but I would try to define this as handedness as:

• I expect the devs will introduce a left-handed option at some point; and
• Dual wielding is possible IRL, if not practicable, but players should have the option.

Because of this, we could define the following also:

• Main Hand - Used as the modifier for whichever weapon/shield/item is equipped in the dominant hand, and all two-handed weapons, not trainable, as weapon skill will be used instead.
• Off Hand - used as a modifier for the whichever weapon/shield/item is equipped in the non-dominant hand, trainable, to reduce the penalty for using the wrong hand, maximum level being true ambidexterity with no penalties.

PZ doesn't use a hit chance in melee, but it does use dmg, crit chance and knockdown chance, so maybe the equations could look something like this:

 

Damage = Off Hand Penalty Coefficient x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier) x Strength Modifier

Crit Chance = (Weapon Natural Crit Modifier/ Off Hand Penalty Coefficient) x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier)

Knockdown Chance = (Weapon Natural Knockdown Modifier/Off Hand Penalty Coefficient) x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier) x Strength Modifier

 

I'm far from a maths guy though so I'm sure those equations are dodgy. Probably also a penalty for using 2h Weapons with one hand should go in there.

 

 

[knightshousegames]

16 minutes ago, Kavke said:

I like this concept over but I would make some changes:

 

Short Weapons and Long Weapons (Call them "Types") shouldn't refer to how many hands you use, but the actual weapon, so a long weapon should be usable one-handed, albeit with strength and crit penalties.

 

I could also refine for the other sub-types, call them "Classes" should be:

• Slashing instead of 'cutting';
• Cleaving instead of 'chopping';
• Piercing is good
• Bludgeoning for 'blunt' because otherwise we have one weapon class that isn't an adverb like the others.
• I would also add 'Blocking' for the possibility of improvised shields sourced from the environment or made by players, they could have an effect on block chance from attacks from the front (or even a defense bonus for attacks from behind when worn on the back, attacks with shields would be defined as 'bludgeoning' because that's what they are).

If we would like to take this one step further, we could treat single-wielding and dual-wielding as yet another modifier, but I would try to define this as handedness as:

• I expect the devs will introduce a left-handed option at some point; and
• Dual wielding is possible IRL, if not practicable, but players should have the option.

Because of this, we could define the following also:

• Main Hand - Used as the modifier for whichever weapon/shield/item is equipped in the dominant hand, and all two-handed weapons, not trainable, as weapon skill will be used instead.
• Off Hand - used as a modifier for the whichever weapon/shield/item is equipped in the non-dominant hand, trainable, to reduce the penalty for using the wrong hand, maximum level being true ambidexterity with no penalties.

PZ doesn't use a hit chance in melee, but it does use dmg, crit chance and knockdown chance, so maybe the equations could look something like this:

 

Damage = Off Hand Penalty Coefficient x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier) x Strength Modifier

Crit Chance = (Weapon Natural Crit Modifier/ Off Hand Penalty Coefficient) x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier)

Knockdown Chance = (Weapon Natural Knockdown Modifier/Off Hand Penalty Coefficient) x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier) x Strength Modifier

 

I'm far from a maths guy though so I'm sure those equations are dodgy. Probably also a penalty for using 2h Weapons with one hand should go in there.

 

 

This goes beyond a stat overhaul into a full on feature overhaul, which is a lot more work

 

I do like the idea of the concept of a "blocking chance", but I don't think it needs to be a stat on the character.

 

I could see it being a feature of a weapon itself, as a modifier to the player's already existing ability to block a frontal attack, similar to how some clothing has a movement speed modifier. Having a "Block Chance Modifier" on some objects could be cool. Then if the player can make things like shields, those could have a high block chance modifier, in exchange for a movement speed penalty, if equipped as secondary

 

Holding things in the offhand is already a possibility, if you use "equip secondary" in the menu. I just don't think the possibility of duel wielding is worth the extra work honestly. With a game this big, any feature creep for the sake of it is the enemy of the development process. I think there is a mod that introduces duel wielding, I think it's called fancy hand work or something like that, if thats a feature you really want.

 

The category names I used were meant to use as few characters as possible, as to not disrupt the existing UI if possible.

[PoshRocketeer]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:51 AM, Kavke said:

I like this concept over but I would make some changes:

 

Short Weapons and Long Weapons (Call them "Types") shouldn't refer to how many hands you use, but the actual weapon, so a long weapon should be usable one-handed, albeit with strength and crit penalties.

 

I could also refine for the other sub-types, call them "Classes" should be:

• Slashing instead of 'cutting';
• Cleaving instead of 'chopping';
• Piercing is good
• Bludgeoning for 'blunt' because otherwise we have one weapon class that isn't an adverb like the others.
• I would also add 'Blocking' for the possibility of improvised shields sourced from the environment or made by players, they could have an effect on block chance from attacks from the front (or even a defense bonus for attacks from behind when worn on the back, attacks with shields would be defined as 'bludgeoning' because that's what they are).

If we would like to take this one step further, we could treat single-wielding and dual-wielding as yet another modifier, but I would try to define this as handedness as:

• I expect the devs will introduce a left-handed option at some point; and
• Dual wielding is possible IRL, if not practicable, but players should have the option.

Because of this, we could define the following also:

• Main Hand - Used as the modifier for whichever weapon/shield/item is equipped in the dominant hand, and all two-handed weapons, not trainable, as weapon skill will be used instead.
• Off Hand - used as a modifier for the whichever weapon/shield/item is equipped in the non-dominant hand, trainable, to reduce the penalty for using the wrong hand, maximum level being true ambidexterity with no penalties.

PZ doesn't use a hit chance in melee, but it does use dmg, crit chance and knockdown chance, so maybe the equations could look something like this:

 

Damage = Off Hand Penalty Coefficient x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier) x Strength Modifier

Crit Chance = (Weapon Natural Crit Modifier/ Off Hand Penalty Coefficient) x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier)

Knockdown Chance = (Weapon Natural Knockdown Modifier/Off Hand Penalty Coefficient) x (Weapon Type Modifier x Weapon Class Modifier) x Strength Modifier

 

I'm far from a maths guy though so I'm sure those equations are dodgy. Probably also a penalty for using 2h Weapons with one hand should go in there.

 

 

Dual-wielding swords is definitely practical, there are loads of old dueling texts and historical documents that detail how it was not uncommon for people to carry 2 different types of weapon, or even 2 of the same.

 

Dual wielding with guns probably shouldn't be included though, if it is, it should be comically bad.

[knightshousegames]

22 hours ago, PoshRocketeer said:

Dual-wielding swords is definitely practical, there are loads of old dueling texts and historical documents that detail how it was not uncommon for people to carry 2 different types of weapon, or even 2 of the same.

 

Dual wielding with guns probably shouldn't be included though, if it is, it should be comically bad.

While this is somewhat true, the offhand weapon if it wasn't paired was usually purpose built defensive device like a shield, buckler or some form of parrying dagger, or a revolver in the case of British Colonial warfare in the 19th century, where an officer would discharge his pistol shots, then since reloading at that time was too slow to do when being charged by an opponent using melee weapons, they'd use a saber in their main hand for the rest of the battle to defend themselves.

 

Things like shields MIGHT be useful, but for the most part, systems built around things like bucklers and daggers were purpose built systems for dueling other swordsmen in duels, and I highly doubt a zombie is gonna notice if you slap him with a leather glove.

 

Now would being able to use a pistol in the offhand make sense in the context of a zombie apocalypse where you are dealing with charging hordes? Maybe. But I think that goes beyond the scope of this suggestion, and is perhaps a story for another time.

Edited August 17, 2023 by knightshousegames

[getstoopid]

On 8/17/2023 at 11:41 PM, knightshousegames said:

and I highly doubt a zombie is gonna notice if you slap him with a leather glove

Yes... uncivilized brutes, indeed.

 

I disagree reagarding shields though - today police forces around the world are using shields for riot control and defense against "raging masses" and that would make sense against zombie attacks also I think. You would use it to keep them at bay and shove them to a distance where you are able to use a weapon efficiently.

[Badgzerz]

My idea is that there are one and two handed weapon categories further divided into dextrous, and clubbed weapons. Everything is dextrous except for weapons like clubs, bats, planks, pipes, wrenches, branches, prybars etc. (not hammers) 

Melee skills are all scrapped and replaced with Maintenance and Dexterity. Weapons have a required dexterity level in order to be effective with swords/spears/machetes/axes having the highest requirements, this is because you need to align the edge properly to strike more efficiently. Higher dexterity also means your weapons will degrade slower and you fatigue less from swinging. If you swing an axe crooked you will roll the edge and dull it faster. Maintenance is changed to allow you to re handle or resharpen weapons more effectively with more means. 

More interestingly I think meeting or exceeding dexterity requirements should allow some two handed weapons to be used one handed with enough strength, and if dexterity/strength requirements are not met you will use one handed weapons two handed. Becoming exerted will cause your character to swing a one handed weapon with two hands to maintain swing speed and power. 

 

[knightshousegames]

On 8/19/2023 at 4:57 AM, getstoopid said:

I disagree reagarding shields though - today police forces around the world are using shields for riot control and defense against "raging masses" and that would make sense against zombie attacks also I think. You would use it to keep them at bay and shove them to a distance where you are able to use a weapon efficiently.

Oh yeah for sure, riot shields being available at PDs would be awesome, my point was more about other duel wielding weapons like parry daggers which were part of specific dueling context.

 

This is where the block chance idea makes a ton of sense, if you are holding a shield and get attacked from the front, it gives you a huge chance of just pushing the attacker back, so you are only really vulnerable from the back and sides. Might be cool if it had a unique shove animation as well

[knightshousegames]

On 8/20/2023 at 1:17 PM, Badgzerz said:

My idea is that there are one and two handed weapon categories further divided into dextrous, and clubbed weapons. Everything is dextrous except for weapons like clubs, bats, planks, pipes, wrenches, branches, prybars etc. (not hammers) 

Melee skills are all scrapped and replaced with Maintenance and Dexterity. Weapons have a required dexterity level in order to be effective with swords/spears/machetes/axes having the highest requirements, this is because you need to align the edge properly to strike more efficiently. Higher dexterity also means your weapons will degrade slower and you fatigue less from swinging. If you swing an axe crooked you will roll the edge and dull it faster. Maintenance is changed to allow you to re handle or resharpen weapons more effectively with more means. 

More interestingly I think meeting or exceeding dexterity requirements should allow some two handed weapons to be used one handed with enough strength, and if dexterity/strength requirements are not met you will use one handed weapons two handed. Becoming exerted will cause your character to swing a one handed weapon with two hands to maintain swing speed and power. 

 

I think what you want is Dark Souls?

 

I think my approach strikes a solid middle ground between having literally every weapon have it's own category, and oversimplifying the use of different weapon types. I think just abstracting everything down to two types goes too far in simplifying the interactions and the nuance of different weapon types is lost.

 

You are correct about edge alignment being important for bladed weapons, but the technique for different blade types like swords vs axes is different. Using something like a pollaxe is a whole different beast from using a longsword for example. Both are long weapons, but the techniques are totally different. A fine example of where my system shines. If you were to use a pollaxe as your main weapon under my new rules, you'd gain experience with Long and Chop. Then if your Pollaxe broke, and you had to switch to a longsword (as was a common weapon set for the English Knight) Your experience with long weapons would still benefit you, however you would have less experience with Cut type weapons, and would need to train that skill separately.

 

As for choosing 1 hand vs 2 hand, it's simple, if you choose to use a weapon 1 handed, it's short experience, if you choose to use it 2 handed, it's long experience. But there should always be a power advantage to using a weapon 2 handed. The 1 handed option only really becomes a serious consideration when this shield idea comes into play, then theres a real decision to be made.

 

I do think Maintenance as a skill is kind of an odd name for it, and that perhaps your skill level with a weapon should determine how fast it wears. It would be cool of the maintenance skill instead applied to physically doing maintenance on your weapons, like regularly using a whetstone on your blades, or treating the handles on blunt weapons with oil, wrapping them with tape or leather strips and so on, but again, goes beyond the scope of this overhaul.

[Badgzerz]

On 8/21/2023 at 5:46 PM, knightshousegames said:

I think what you want is Dark Souls?

 

I think my approach strikes a solid middle ground between having literally every weapon have it's own category, and oversimplifying the use of different weapon types. I think just abstracting everything down to two types goes too far in simplifying the interactions and the nuance of different weapon types is lost.

 

You are correct about edge alignment being important for bladed weapons, but the technique for different blade types like swords vs axes is different. Using something like a pollaxe is a whole different beast from using a longsword for example. Both are long weapons, but the techniques are totally different. A fine example of where my system shines. If you were to use a pollaxe as your main weapon under my new rules, you'd gain experience with Long and Chop. Then if your Pollaxe broke, and you had to switch to a longsword (as was a common weapon set for the English Knight) Your experience with long weapons would still benefit you, however you would have less experience with Cut type weapons, and would need to train that skill separately.

 

As for choosing 1 hand vs 2 hand, it's simple, if you choose to use a weapon 1 handed, it's short experience, if you choose to use it 2 handed, it's long experience. But there should always be a power advantage to using a weapon 2 handed. The 1 handed option only really becomes a serious consideration when this shield idea comes into play, then theres a real decision to be made.

 

I do think Maintenance as a skill is kind of an odd name for it, and that perhaps your skill level with a weapon should determine how fast it wears. It would be cool of the maintenance skill instead applied to physically doing maintenance on your weapons, like regularly using a whetstone on your blades, or treating the handles on blunt weapons with oil, wrapping them with tape or leather strips and so on, but again, goes beyond the scope of this overhaul.

Never played dark souls, but I've used tools a fair bit and put in 45h/w doing blue collar stuff. Edge alignment is the same beast whether using a hammer, an axe or a sword. There is more needed for a sword than a hammer, but a hammer is still a directional weapon, its not just a round club. Hence the dexterity requirements for different weapons. As for 1 hand vs 2 hand, people who lack the dexterity and strength/endurace to swing a tool will resort to two hands just to manage the tool without hurting themselves. More than half my mates in my HS woodworking class could barely drive a nail with two hands and a 16oz hammer. On the contrary, some people are brutes and can swing typically two handed weapons well one handed. Not optimally but they can wield a flashlight or a handgun while killing zombies with a 24" handled axe.  In my system, having high dexterity from using high dexterity and possibly high strength weapons like swords, axes, pickaxes etc would mean you can immediately pickup any lower dex/str weapon and perform at near maximum capacity with it.  Going from a hammer to a sword means you still got some basics down and aren't at square one, with square one being a young girl who has no experience swinging tools with precision. If you go from an axe to a sword, you are 60-75% of the way there.