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Zombie changes.


Alex2213

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First of all, you should not be able to walk past a zombie at arms reach without showing any kind of defense at all.

I hate to be a bastard and do this, but the game is still a work in progress. Not everything is done -- and I'm sure they'd want better animations for this sort of thing.

Secondly, the game doesn't even give you any intensity when taking out a horde with an axe. As long as you hit one, instantly run in the opposite direction and do it again your guaranteed safety.

Yet some people still struggle with this . . . not to mention it being tedious as hell, particular if your character is weak and becomes exhausted. The axe is one of (if not the) best weapon for doing this work.

You can't honestly tell me the zombies are dangerous. If you say there not meant to be, your simply wrong.

A single zombie isn't meant to be a threat except in situations where you're caught off guard or without a weapon (though the latter applies more-so to people who've not gotten down the shoving/kicking mechanic -- something which is rather over powered).

And of course they're dangerous -- if you do something stupid (like in the movies), or are distracted (which fits the latter), or become over-confident and work yourself between several zombies that converge.

EDIT: Also, a ordinary man could not swing an axe 60 times in one day while sprinting around and not has serious fatigue for the next couple of days. At the moment there is no reason why you should run from a horde.

That I can agree with. Well, almost. If it wasn't possible to swing an axe 60 times a day and do cardio, the logging industry never would have come into being.

 

 

Enigma, I usually agree with your posts but I completely agree with Alex in this one.  I think that a single zombie should be a huge threat unless you actually acknowledge it's existence.  In that video, I do not believe the player should be able to do that without the zombie biting them or at the very least scratching them, I understand you saying that the player was slowed down and 'struggled' for a moment, but it shouldn't be an automatic thing, the player should have to push the zombie off rather than us assume the character struggled away from the zombie.  If a single zombie was a bit more dangerous then hordes would be even more dangerous.  As it is right now, you can weave your way through many zombies pretty easily because your character 'struggles' away unless three or so grab you at once.  

 

I think that if a zombie grabs you from behind or the side then a huge slowdown penalty should be added, from directly in front of the character maybe you'd have more of a chance since your hands are there but if the zombie is behind you or to the side I think you're gonna get bit, struggling may help you but it wouldn't be effortless at all.

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Yeah I am with Waffle and Alex too, I feel that the slowdown is too little, so little it is open to debate if it is even at work at all in the video. I mean you don't even need to run to get past, you can just walk. And I feel it is safe to say that walking shoulder to shoulder with a zombie should not be possible without it grabbing you. Imagine doing so and what reality would produce. At the very least you would need to shove it away,

 

Anyway I put it up on the tracker, from there it can be looked at and then confirmed, tweaked, listed as not a bug, whatever. :)

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Well it all depends on how you like your zombies, but I think this is a pace that would definitely cause them just to "bite the air" as the OP said:

http://youtu.be/ba7is5M0POs?t=12m50s

And I think that's just fine and dandy. I see nothing wrong with these kind of slow zombies. Actually I prefer them when it comes to lore. Gameplay-wise I would like to have a slightly tighter and faster grip maybe, but since the tiredeness already affects a lot I'm fine as it is.

 

Also aren't some zombies faster than others and better at grabbing you? At least they're faster, but does that affect their grabbing abilities and if not, it could.

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The way I've always seen zombies, and especially in Zomboid is: They're dumb. They're stupid. They can't lay traps, they can't ambush you. What they are, is a constant in the world. Sure, you might have killed hundreds of zombies before, but all it takes is for you to get complacent. A slip, ignoring a zombie for a few seconds, or generally becoming complacent/overconfident... You get bit. And you're fucked.

 

This applies doubly so once you get multiple survivors and group interactions occurring. It's not the Zombies that bring down the fortified camp, it's the infighting. the arguing. The guy who forgot to look the gate after collecting firewood. The scorned lover looking for revenge.

 

In short, it's human stupidity and complacency that gives Zombies their lethal edge. That and hordes. Big ones.

 

Also, as for the idea of 'water filled zombie spits/puke contaminated water on you', this would imply the Zombie pathogen (virus/nanites/pixiedust/etc) can survive, free floating, in water. Which in turn means that rain, ground, and river water could infect you if it got contaminated. Which wouldn't really lead to fun gameplay.

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The way I've always seen zombies, and especially in Zomboid is: They're dumb. They're stupid. They can't lay traps, they can't ambush you. What they are, is a constant in the world. Sure, you might have killed hundreds of zombies before, but all it takes is for you to get complacent. A slip, ignoring a zombie for a few seconds, or generally becoming complacent/overconfident... You get bit. And you're fucked.

 

This applies doubly so once you get multiple survivors and group interactions occurring. It's not the Zombies that bring down the fortified camp, it's the infighting. the arguing. The guy who forgot to look the gate after collecting firewood. The scorned lover looking for revenge.

 

In short, it's human stupidity and complacency that gives Zombies their lethal edge. That and hordes. Big ones.

 

Also, as for the idea of 'water filled zombie spits/puke contaminated water on you', this would imply the Zombie pathogen (virus/nanites/pixiedust/etc) can survive, free floating, in water. Which in turn means that rain, ground, and river water could infect you if it got contaminated. Which wouldn't really lead to fun gameplay.

I get that, but zombies are still supposed to be dangerous. You're shouldn't be able to kill hundreds of zombies easily. But in this game you do. Like you said zombies are not smart and they don't lay traps or ambush you, but you can bet your ass that if you tried to fight a  group of them with a bat all odds would be against you. But in this game there not. Its not that there not smart enough, its that they're not dangerous enough when they go after you.

 

Also them standing still is something that should be improved. Its really odd.

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They're just ineffectual when singular. It's not exactly hard to find, and get screwed over, by a pair of them if you're not careful. Even two zombies can "grab" and slow you to the point you're in danger if you don't try to break away.

Zombies in PZ stand still when there is no stimulus to drive their actions.

Would I like zombies to be harder in some "realistic" fashion? Certainly, but how do you do that in the context of the game without making them either human or super-human? Even then, there's the current generation of the sandbox to accomplish this, if you really want it.

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They're just ineffectual when singular. It's not exactly hard to find, and get screwed over, by a pair of them if you're not careful. Even two zombies can "grab" and slow you to the point you're in danger if you don't try to break away.

Zombies in PZ stand still when there is no stimulus to drive their actions.

Would I like zombies to be harder in some "realistic" fashion? Certainly, but how do you do that in the context of the game without making them either human or super-human? Even then, there's the current generation of the sandbox to accomplish this, if you really want it.

They shouldn't be that ineffectual. I've proved all my points above. 

As for two zombies? You can take care of them with no problem, just give one a little nudge so it falls on the floor and do the same to the other. Should that happen? No. Zombies shouldn't be weightless and have the balance of a man with one leg.

 

As for the zombies standing still waiting for something to drive their actions, I've never seen a zombie do this in ANYTHING. One or two zombies doing this is ok but a whole map of zombies not moving unless something catches their attention? Thats not right at all. Zombies are supposed to roam aimlessly.

 

Increasing the zombies difficulty won't be making them super human and the game too hard. It would be making the game interesting and getting the zombies the developers wanted to achieve. Why should I have to edit my game in sandbox to get proper zombies? I like playing on survival because thats how the game was intended to be played. 

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The way I've always seen zombies, and especially in Zomboid is: They're dumb. They're stupid. They can't lay traps, they can't ambush you. What they are, is a constant in the world. Sure, you might have killed hundreds of zombies before, but all it takes is for you to get complacent. A slip, ignoring a zombie for a few seconds, or generally becoming complacent/overconfident... You get bit. And you're fucked.

 

This applies doubly so once you get multiple survivors and group interactions occurring. It's not the Zombies that bring down the fortified camp, it's the infighting. the arguing. The guy who forgot to look the gate after collecting firewood. The scorned lover looking for revenge.

 

In short, it's human stupidity and complacency that gives Zombies their lethal edge. That and hordes. Big ones.

 

Also, as for the idea of 'water filled zombie spits/puke contaminated water on you', this would imply the Zombie pathogen (virus/nanites/pixiedust/etc) can survive, free floating, in water. Which in turn means that rain, ground, and river water could infect you if it got contaminated. Which wouldn't really lead to fun gameplay.

After that, it is on should not misrepresent PZ, but for example the zombie filled with water, I think that only contains water that is contaminated zombie.

If a zombie falls into a well, the water will necessarily contaminated, you will turn into a zombie necessarily if you drink that water! But if that zombie is removed at the right time of the drinking water will return.

I do not think PZ is either misrepresent that adding zombies (although very few) who have had a different life. So have some little trick.

For example, a person who died while crossing a glass and coated glass piece. That person before zombie will necessarily worse, it is just inferred that zombie bits of glass in the mouth and safe hands, which makes it more effective than just zombie death in front of his TV.

After, we also see this as an option + to gameplay. When you come across a zombie with a metal bar through the body, you will say "ouch! Dirty death ..." But you'll also that metal bar that protrudes from the zombie may make you worse. So you will attack otherwise. In the back with a thrown weapon etc..

I think it can only bring the bonus PZ while remaining realistic and adding a bit of difficulty zombie, and more, making them more varied

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They shouldn't be that ineffectual. I've proved all my points above.

Proved what, exactly? Even in your video, you can see your character slow down, simulating being "grabbed." Everything past that is just personal opinion on both our parts as to how we'd prefer zombies represented. I've given you mine, you've given me yours, and none of it is factual data outside of that video.

 

As for two zombies? You can take care of them with no problem, just give one a little nudge so it falls on the floor and do the same to the other. Should that happen? No. Zombies shouldn't be weightless and have the balance of a man with one leg.

You can take care of any number of zombies without any problem, if you're willing. Does your ability to take out two negate that there is a possibility for mortal wounds if you do not act accordingly?

People, like zombies, aren't stone walls: all it takes is a decided shove to knock us down, just like the zombies, in reality.

 

As for the zombies standing still waiting for something to drive their actions, I've never seen a zombie do this in

ANYTHING. One or two zombies doing this is ok but a whole map of zombies not moving unless something catches their attention? Thats not right at all. Zombies are supposed to roam aimlessly.

We're moving past your original post, now. I've given you the justification for this that the developers use. If you want zombies that strafe the map, play 1.5d. I do rather miss that aspect of the game, but the reasoning is logical, and with some tweaks the current system can be repaired (such as making a chance for highly packed hordes, rather than loosely scattered).

 

Increasing the zombies difficulty won't be making them super human and the game too hard. It would be making the game interesting and getting the zombies the developers wanted to achieve. Why should I have to edit my game in sandbox to get proper zombies? I like playing on survival because thats how the game was intended to be played.

Because you can, if you don't like the current setup. That's the point of sandbox.
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Ok there is a sandbox for a reason people think zombies are to weak change them O: "what no way" you say but it goes a little like this. Companies can't make one product that everyone likes they have to make separate products like soda there are tons of soda and you probably like 1 more than another but what about your friend he likes grape soda and you like orange your not going to constantly tell him to change his soda just because you like yours more. Simply change the options in sandbox and its done

 

(also in this case instead of TIS making multiple products they just make one that is changeable)

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He slowed down? Oh boy! OK so if I did this for another three hours I might just be slow enough for the zombie to get me. (Rolls eyes)

What happened in the video should not of happened. 

 

For your second point fair enough. But zombies should have some more weight to them, when you push them they do one out of two things, move backwards a couple of yards or just flop over on the floor. It should be much more challenging to keep a zombie off you.

 

Thirdly, they shouldn't of took it out just because some people felt they were getting found to easily. Thats what it was right? If they covered the windows etc, zombies wouldn't be banging on there door.

 

Lastly, I understand sandbox is there for things like this but the developers said they wanted "proper zombies" AKA Romero zombies to be the default... These are not proper zombies. I have a bunch of people agreeing with me on this thread.

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Lastly, I understand sandbox is there for things like this but the developers said they wanted "proper zombies" AKA Romero zombies to be the default... These are not proper zombies. I have a bunch of people agreeing with me on this thread.

Did you even look at the video I linked? That's a 'proper' Romero Zombie that moves as slow as a turtle. No one has said, other than you now, that pz zombies aren't proper zombies. They've agreed on some of your points, not all.

 

What happened in the video should not of happened.

This is an opinion. Not a fact.

 

But zombies should have some more weight to them, when you push them they do one out of two things, move backwards a couple of yards or just flop over on the floor. It should be much more challenging to keep a zombie off you.

This too is your own opinion. Again not a fact.

 

Thirdly, they shouldn't of took it out just because some people felt they were getting found to easily. Thats what it was right? If they covered the windows etc, zombies wouldn't be banging on there door.

This is somewhat of a false deduction caused by not knowing all of the reasons behind the devs decision. You have no entitlement in saying, with your knowledge on the subject, what the devs should have or shouldn't have done.

 

And the last part I already covered there. Also, you're starting to repeat yourself pretty badly. You've stated your opinion, there's no need to force it through by repetition.

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Lastly, I understand sandbox is there for things like this but the developers said they wanted "proper zombies" AKA Romero zombies to be the default... These are not proper zombies. I have a bunch of people agreeing with me on this thread.

Did you even look at the video I linked? That's a 'proper' Romero Zombie that moves as slow as a turtle. No one has said, other than you now, that pz zombies aren't proper zombies. They've agreed on some of your points, not all.

 

What happened in the video should not of happened.

This is an opinion. Not a fact.

 

But zombies should have some more weight to them, when you push them they do one out of two things, move backwards a couple of yards or just flop over on the floor. It should be much more challenging to keep a zombie off you.

This too is your own opinion. Again not a fact.

 

Thirdly, they shouldn't of took it out just because some people felt they were getting found to easily. Thats what it was right? If they covered the windows etc, zombies wouldn't be banging on there door.

This is somewhat of a false deduction caused by not knowing all of the reasons behind the devs decision. You have no entitlement in saying, with your knowledge on the subject, what the devs should have or shouldn't have done.

 

And the last part I already covered there. Also, you're starting to repeat yourself pretty badly. You've stated your opinion, there's no need to force it through by repetition.

 

Let me restate what I mean by Romero zombies. I meant the zombies Romero used for the most throughout his movies. In Night, Day, Land, and possibly the one's after Land. (I'm not a fan of those so I don't remember) 

The reason they should do this is to make the game more enjoyable. Simply more enjoyable. I don't enjoy surviving for ever. When NPCS are introduced I'm not going to enjoy getting killed by them over and over instead of zombies.

 

For the video, let me restate. Its fact that the zombie was no threat. It is my opinion and I suspect the most common opinion that this is not a good thing.

 

Its fact that a zombie would have more weight and better balance if it was going by any other zombie movie. At the moment no other zombie movie, except possibly the remake of Night has less threatening zombies than this game. Lets not forget that this is a game. Without a challenge to this, especially while the NPCS are not in, what is the point of playing?

 

Lastly can you fill me in on the proper reason the developers took out the roaming zombies?

 

Also in all Romero films a one on one encounter is still dangerous...

 

Johnny vs graveyard zombie - 1 on 1 fight.

Roger vs Zombie, they fell wrestled on the floor. Another 1 on 1 encounter with a zombie.

Stephen vs Zombie, stopped to get gas, had a wrestling match with ONE zombie again.

etc

 

If this was the Zomboid zombies all that would happen is the main character would just walk past it (slowing slightly) while easily getting away.

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If this was the Zomboid zombies all that would happen is the main character would just walk past it (slowing slightly) while easily getting away.

 

If this was zomboid he would have seen them coming a mile away.

Also i forgot that those people you referred to were in the third person meaning they would be foolish to get caught in the first place.

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I also agree that zombies should roam the map, but my more important point was this:

 

If a zombie grabs you from behind, you should not be able to walk away unless you push that zombie off, the game shouldn't be holding your hand and making you assume your character magically struggled away, that should be a player action and if the player action does not happen, then the player should face the consequence for walking too close to zombies.  I personally do not think this should be only for 'superhuman' zombies, in reality anything with a human weight behind it that grabs you and tries to pull you back, will do a lot more than just slow you down.

 

This is my only real concern, it's almost like in the suggestions for 'tripping over' randomly, people argued that the game should not cause the players grief by taking control away from them, I suggest that vice-versa the game should not make the game easier by taking control away from them.

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If this was the Zomboid zombies all that would happen is the main character would just walk past it (slowing slightly) while easily getting away.

 

If this was zomboid he would have seen them coming a mile away.

Also i forgot that those people you referred to were in the third person meaning they would be foolish to get caught in the first place.

 

 

Well not always, you enter a room in zomboid sometimes a zombie appears out of nowhere, if they would be dangerous then this would be a dangerous situation and add challenge to the game.

Those characters in Romeros films that I mentioned sometimes may have been foolish, act foolish face the consequences.

The difference here is, ACT FOOLISH in zomboid and there are no consequences...

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Well not always, you enter a room in zomboid sometimes a zombie appears out of nowhere, if they would be dangerous then this would be a dangerous situation and add challenge to the game.

Those characters in Romeros films that I mentioned sometimes may have been foolish, act foolish face the consequences.

The difference here is, ACT FOOLISH in zomboid and there are no consequences...

 

You'd be surprised. If you know what you're doing, you can easily take out three zombies at once with a well placed (and timed) axe strike. Might instagib one, the other two go down, and you've polished off one just as the other stands up... Only to be hit back to the floor for the coup de grace. HOWEVER. This kind of attack is risky. I can do it, sure. Would I do it with two zombies coming up behind the tight cluster of three? No. I'd swing once to knock them down, pull back, and prepare to do it again. Would I do it if I didn't have a bat or fireaxe? Hell no, I know I wouldn't have the damage or reach to pull it off.

 

Remember, you've only ever got one chance in Zomboid. One bite, one scratch, and it's all over. There's a reason why new players are told to avoid combat whenever possible, and to charge up attacks before popping open a bathroom. It's very, very easy to act foolish in game and have it (literally) turn around and bite you on the ass.

 

Not too long ago, I'd mainly been playing Zomboid in multiplayer, and we all know how forgiving the multiplayer experience is when it comes to being grabbed by zombies. Duck through hordes? Sure! Zombies starting to block the front door? No problem. Just sprint right through and everything's fine. Then I went back to playing singleplayer. I kept dying. I'd gotten complacent from my time in multiplayer and accumulated a bunch of bad habits. I sprinted everywhere, I wasn't checking locked rooms, and I was moving about at night. I had to almost relearn all the tricks to moving and avoiding zombies when running about in game. I acted foolish, and got punished for it.

 

It sounds like what people are confusing in here is 'slow-down-near-a-zombie' with 'being-grappled-by-a-zombie'. Remember, Zomboid is STILL in development. I wouldn't be surprised if the 'slow-down' is replaced by an animation of the player character struggling with, then shoving back, a zombie when their movement speed is cut. Same with a zombie grabbing you from behind. That already has consequences in game, right now. You can't see the zombie/s that grabbed you. In the time it takes to turn to flee or attack, you're probably already bitten. In the future, your character would probably struggle and squirm in an attempt to break free, and you'd see the whole scene played out in gorey detail.

 

It's like Zombies vaulting over low fences and into windows. Everyone would rather see zombies stumbling, lurching, tripping and falling over low obstacles, but right now, wasting development time on making all those custom animations is a bit pointless. Better to use the player-character-vaulting animation for now as a placeholder, and put in something nice and cool looking when the gameplay is straightened out.

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Footmuffin's got a point. The trait system is an excellent difficulty manager. And if that doesn't cut it you can always try to take a look at the code and see if there's some numbers you could tweak by yourself, like axe knockback etc.

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Footmuffin's got a point. The trait system is an excellent difficulty manager. And if that doesn't cut it you can always try to take a look at the code and see if there's some numbers you could tweak by yourself, like axe knockback etc.

I suppose. I just hope the developers consider increasing the threat of the zombies as people become more familiar with the game and begin finding it easy.

For now I'll stick to sandbox. But you gotta see my point here and consider a change, It gets boring lasting for ever.

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  • 2 weeks later...

On the official extra content for the "Night of the living dead" anniversary version they mentioned that "Day of the dead" took place a LONG time after the start of the apocalypse so the zombies had become stronger meaning that it was almost impossible to push a zombie after being grappled

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I agree that the zeds are too easy to kill ! On the other hand, I played sandbox with zeds on sprinter speed only once :D and i immediately died after an alarm went off ! Zeds in the blink of an eye were out of nowhere right next to me and I had no chance to esacpe because no matter where I went I ran into new ones...

 

My oldest survivor is about 4 months in and here I totally agree with OP because the game is so easy now that I do not even have a real reason to leave my property! I was only scratched once by a zed who was covered by a tree! I in general find the "scratch" idea a bit weird and would rather focus on the mentioned better grab mechanics which instead force you to get bitten! As if all zeds had zombie infection under their fingernails, right (e.g. Zeds in DayZ punch you instead of biting)??? An emphasis on other activities beside the zombie threat could help here ofc too to make to game more interesting again (TheSims style haha)! Like the ability to write a dairy (or report) ! Before your character goes to sleep he writes a report of everything he did the past day like what he ate, how many he killed, how many nails used, gardening etc... Later you archive it in your shelf for your own neat little library!!

 

Anyway, I really hope my base gets attacked more frequently by roaming hordes with the next upcoming patches! And please, no special zombies :P

 

EDiT:

What I forgot to mention, there are sometimes faster and stronger zombies thrown into the mix !! I pretty much like this coz this makes them more unpredictable! For example, once I was cleaning a building and after I opened a door one of them immediately rushed at me !!! This was an awesome shocking experience and I only made it out alive due to my tactic to always! take a few steps away as soon as i open doors !! Good fun :)

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