Perishable Fuel & Bio Diesel

[Fluffy]

I have mentioned this in other topics before, but I figured it deserves its own topic, to discuss possible implications.

Petrol & diesel are perishable goods.

It is difficult to say how long they last (If you know the answer please share it with us), but according to my research, depending on how you store it, somewhere between 3-6 months.
There doesn't seem to be a major difference in the shelf life of petrol or diesel, it's more or less the same. If you store it in a fuel canister it will certanly outlast fuel stored in fuel tanks of cars. This is due to impurities and air in fuel tanks.

 

Why should we care about perishable fuels?

For one, the devs want to make a realistic game and it is a fact that Petrol & Diesel don't last forever.
Two, it is a survial game and I love how food is perishable in game, it means you have to worry about constantly restocking your supply. I feel the same should apply to our fuel supply. It simply adds to the struggle of staying alive and thus adds to the fun factor this game creates so amazingly well.

 

Implications once cars and fuel are added to the game:

Similar to water and electricity, there will be a time where all the fuel found on the map has become obsolete. The question is, how long should fuel last? That will depend on where you get your fuel from:

 

Siphoned from Cars: 6 months.

Fuel Canister: 9 months.
Gas Station: 9 months.

 

You will notice I have extended the shelf life a bit and that is because during my research many people suggested that their petrol lasted beyond the specified 3-6 months period. Also in terms of gameplay, it would be handy to have the fuel left around the map last a little longer.

What happens after 9 months have past?

Obviously we will need access to a fuel source once all the exsisting fuels have gone bad. We only really have 2 options: (if you know of more options share them)

 

Bio Diesel:

It is relatively easy to produce bio diesel but the emphasis is on relatively. The process isn't to difficult to learn but you will need access to raw materials which aren't gonna be easy to come by in a post appocalyptic world. For one method you will require: Organic Oil, Methanol, Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide.

There are many other methods which use other ingredients, so if you know of a simple one that would work in a post appocalyptic world please share it with us. 

 

Vegetable Oil:

Diesel engines can also run on vegetable oil, which unlike bio diesel will be easier to produce. But it shares the same issue with bio diesel; you have to heat it up to ensure the fluidity is sufficiently high enough to be used in a diesel engine. Which can be an issue since most modified diesel powered cars use a 2 tank system (1 for diesel, 1 for bio diesel), that uses conventional diesel to heat up the bio diesel to operating temperature.

Once again if you know of another method of using bio diesel without the help of conventional diesel, let us know.

 

Also to make vegetable oil, we will need a suitable crop to grow and turn into oil. Rapeseed or Sunflower oil seem like a good choice, but if you have a better one share it with us.

 

Choice of engine:

Not sure how much thought the devs have put into this, but if fuel was made perishable, petrol engine cars will become useless after the petrol had gone bad. This means we will need to have both petrol and diesel powered cars in game. It would be nice to have a few modified diesel engine cars dotted around the map as a rare find.

As far as I know, most if not all power generators are diesel powered, so that shouldn't be an issue once they are introduced.

 

Summary:

I have raised a few questions in this post, to which we will need to find answers:

Do we want fuel to be perishable?
if yes:
How long should it last before going off?
Do we want Bio Diesel in the game?, If yes what kind?

Do we want Vegetable Oil as a fuel source?, If yes what plants do we need?
What type of engined cars / generators do we want in the game?

Do we need a new skill like mechanic to modify engines?

Is this post a waste of time?

 

Lastly, I am no expert on this subject, so feel free to point out any mistakes or things I have missed.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this post & I am looking forward to your comments.

[EnigmaGrey]

But my lawnmower's manual tells me gasoline over 2 months, even stored in a air tight container, voids its warranty.

I just don't know who to believe anymore.

[Viceroy]

It depends on whether the devs want to concede this one to realism or to gameplay. I am personally leaning towards making petrol and the like 'infinite' when it comes to lifespan. With NPC's and groups of people around it will not be long until all the cars in a town gets siphoned off anyway.

 

This also depends on how many cars we will have access to and how much fuel is stored in gas stations. Once power fails you'd have to siphon from the reservoir though, which would involve removing the covers and the grates that protect it. Depending on the measures used by the owners to secure it and on how much fuel the station supplied in the initial exodus. My money would be on most gas stations being rather low on fuel anyway by the time the game starts.

 

Again it is all just speculative at this stage, I can't wait to see how the devs plan on handling it and I am sure you are all just as anxious to see the first cars ingame.

[Fluffy]

But my lawnmower's manual tells me gasoline over 2 months, even stored in a air tight container, voids its warranty.

I just don't know who to believe anymore.

 

It's like I said, it is really hard to find a definitive answer on how long it lasts. I guess your lawnmower's manual chose the lower end of the estimate to be on the save side.

 

It depends on whether the devs want to concede this one to realism or to gameplay. I am personally leaning towards making petrol and the like 'infinite' when it comes to lifespan. With NPC's and groups of people around it will not be long until all the cars in a town gets siphoned off anyway.

 

This also depends on how many cars we will have access to and how much fuel is stored in gas stations. Once power fails you'd have to siphon from the reservoir though, which would involve removing the covers and the grates that protect it. Depending on the measures used by the owners to secure it and on how much fuel the station supplied in the initial exodus. My money would be on most gas stations being rather low on fuel anyway by the time the game starts.

 

Again it is all just speculative at this stage, I can't wait to see how the devs plan on handling it and I am sure you are all just as anxious to see the first cars ingame.

 

I agree with you, I would expect gas stations to be pretty dry. One of the first things people do in a crisis, is stock up on fuel, amongst other things. Also true depending on the number of players and/or NPC, cars would be siphoned off pretty quickly too. It still doesn't mean there can't be an expiry date on fuel. Possibly even add an option, just like for water and electricity, where you could set the expiry date yourself.

Even if you ignore the perishabilitly issue for a moment. What do you do when the town is siphoned dry? Do we need or want an alternative?

 

Edit: In terms of gameplay, I personally don't care about using cars all that much. Possibly a subconscious reason why I suggested this. To me I rather walk for ages and have small adventures along the way, rathern than blast down the road in a car. But also in terms of realism and one thing I disagree in TWD, is the extend of fuel availability after a long time has passed. I feel it would be more fun in game to have to work for your fuel and make it an extremly valuable commodity.

[migulao]

What about electric cars? (I think it's how they are called)

[Fluffy]

What about electric cars? (I think it's how they are called)

 

One slight issue there, once the power is out, how will you refuel the cars? Even power generators are gonna need fuel. Sure you could try a solar panel or wind turbine. But as far as I know only generators are a confirmed yes at the moment.

My 2 cents on renewable electricity: (Solar & wind)

Offtopic

In real life, it is great I am all for it. In game not so much. To me the game is great fun because you have to scavange for things, grow crops, hunt/fish food. Renewable or infinite fuel sources kind of ruin the game for me. You loose the dread of running out of something essential and having to scavange for more.

[migulao]

 

What about electric cars? (I think it's how they are called)

 

One slight issue there, once the power is out, how will you refuel the cars? Even power generators are gonna need fuel. Sure you could try a solar panel or wind turbine. But as far as I know only generators are a confirmed yes at the moment.

My 2 cents on renewable electricity: (Solar & wind)

Offtopic

In real life, it is great I am all for it. In game not so much. To me the game is great fun because you have to scavange for things, grow things, hunt/fish food. Renewable or infinite fuel sources kind of ruin the game for me. You loose the dread of running out of something essential and having to scavange for more.

 

Im ok with limited stuff as long as they add bycicles

[Bolgfred]

If there will be any implementation of gasoline, and I hope there will be, I don't think its necessary to differ between petrol, kerosine, BP, Exxon or Chevron. To use cars and filling stations to get gasoline for... light, flamers, drugs or to remove permanent markers is on the same level like plundering fridges for food -  its cool. But to think beyond that is.. kind of over the top. Same for nails. Everyone who ever wielded a hammer knows that there are several size and type of nails, but Indie Stone has no idea of carpentry so they think there is only one type of nails! Thank you for that, mister Indie stone. Its better this way.

 

A question, that bites me much more is - what you wanna do with those gasoline? generators, light, molotov, cars, heating, flamers, drinking? In my personal life I don't use gasoline much in my household so I don't have much ideas what i would do(exept for removing permanent marker). Wait not, I could run my toy plane for... 50000 hours?

 

 

What about electric cars? (I think it's how they are called)

 

Faces of Survival

bssss..... Hello, Mister Zombie, look at my electric car... bsssssss. Look at me, while I will drive away into the sunrise which fuels my green hippie life*! .....bbbbsssss - 

 

 

*no offense against hippies or electric cars. I drive one at work and they're... special

[Fluffy]

 

 

What about electric cars? (I think it's how they are called)

 

One slight issue there, once the power is out, how will you refuel the cars? Even power generators are gonna need fuel. Sure you could try a solar panel or wind turbine. But as far as I know only generators are a confirmed yes at the moment.

My 2 cents on renewable electricity: (Solar & wind)

Offtopic

In real life, it is great I am all for it. In game not so much. To me the game is great fun because you have to scavange for things, grow things, hunt/fish food. Renewable or infinite fuel sources kind of ruin the game for me. You loose the dread of running out of something essential and having to scavange for more.

 

Im ok with limited stuff as long as they add bycicles

 

 

Bicycles are great for more than just one reason, though I believe it has been suggested before, so we shall put that to the side.

 

If there will be any implementation of gasoline, and I hope there will be, I don't think its necessary to differ between petrol, kerosine, BP, Exxon or Chevron. To use cars and filling stations to get gasoline for... light, flamers, drugs or to remove permanent markers is on the same level like plundering fridges for food -  its cool. But to think beyond that is.. kind of over the top. Same for nails. Everyone who ever wielded a hammer knows that there are several size and type of nails, but Indie Stone has no idea of carpentry so they think there is only one type of nails! Thank you for that, mister Indie stone. Its better this way.

 

A question, that bites me much more is - what you wanna do with those gasoline? generators, light, molotov, cars, heating, flamers, drinking? In my personal life I don't use gasoline much in my household so I don't have much ideas what i would do(exept for removing permanent marker). Wait not, I could run my toy plane for... 50000 hours?

 

 

What about electric cars? (I think it's how they are called)

 

Faces of Survival

bssss..... Hello, Mister Zombie, look at my electric car... bsssssss. Look at me, while I will drive away into the sunrise which fuels my green hippie life*! .....bbbbsssss - 

 

 

*no offense against hippies or electric cars. I drive one at work and they're... special

 

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I differentiated between petrol and diesel because they are 2 different kinds of engines that run on 2 different kinds of fuels (Diesel & Petrol). A petrol engine would never be able to run on diesel fuel. If we added bio diesel to the game, the game would also have to have diesel cars, but since most cars have petrol engines, its unrealistic to say we just have diesel cars either, that is why I suggested to have both types.

 

Uses of fuel will be to power cars and generator, two things which are confirmed yes and will be implemented at some stage.

[Bolgfred]

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I differentiated between petrol and diesel because they are 2 different kinds of engines that run on 2 different kinds of fuels (Diesel & Petrol). A petrol engine would never be able to run on diesel fuel. If we added bio diesel to the game, the game would also have to have diesel cars, but since most cars have petrol engines, its unrealistic to say we just have diesel cars either, that is why I suggested to have both types.

 

I got that, but wouldn't this too near to reality? Even if its hell-of-important for an engine which fuel its eating, but I have 3 different usages(car, generator and flamer/molotov) and two different sources. Carpentry got about 20 items but only one source. I am not sure about that, but if I imagine that I have a lot of nails but no screw to build a door, which shouldn't be build with nails I expect myself to be quite unhappy(this kind of unhappy that makes me throwing all my nails out of the window and... fuck, I still need them!)

But the fun, when you're fueling a diesel car with petrol... ... could be fun.

[Fluffy]

 

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I differentiated between petrol and diesel because they are 2 different kinds of engines that run on 2 different kinds of fuels (Diesel & Petrol). A petrol engine would never be able to run on diesel fuel. If we added bio diesel to the game, the game would also have to have diesel cars, but since most cars have petrol engines, its unrealistic to say we just have diesel cars either, that is why I suggested to have both types.

 

I got that, but wouldn't this too near to reality? Even if its hell-of-important for an engine which fuel its eating, but I have 3 different usages(car, generator and flamer/molotov) and two different sources. Carpentry got about 20 items but only one source. I am not sure about that, but if I imagine that I have a lot of nails but no screw to build a door, which shouldn't be build with nails I expect myself to be quite unhappy(this kind of unhappy that makes me throwing all my nails out of the window and... fuck, I still need them!)

But the fun, when you're fueling a diesel car with petrol... ... could be fun.

 

Too near to reality? Perhaps. I simply tried to suggest something close to reality. Maybe too much reality.

So what if we did simply say, all cars are powered by diesel engines, all generators are diesel generators, all petrol stations & random fuel canisters contain diesel. It would be unrealistic, but I guess like your nails example, it would be close enough to reality.

Still kind of leaves the question of perishable & Bio Diesel yes or no?