Wind turbines, solar panels or generators?

[EnigmaGrey]

Have a feeling you mean these, Rathlord: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_controller They're not a mandatory component, they just prevent damage to the battery.

You'd need an inverter to use anything stored on that battery with modern appliances (other than DC motors and lamps), such as this: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-120w-inverter-with-dual-usb-0111945p.html#.U_aaFGN9es4

Definitely can't just connect it to an outlet and power a house, though.

[Rathlord]

Yup, those were the ones I was thinking of. I wonder how fast a modern car/boat battery would get burnt out from constant overcharging?

 

I'm also curious- how many car batteries (if it's possible at all) would you need interconnected to output household currents, and how long could they run stuff with a full charge?

[Bolgfred]

Yup, those were the ones I was thinking of. I wonder how fast a modern car/boat battery would get burnt out from constant overcharging?

Lithium batteries cannot overcharge. Nickel-Cadmium does. If I remember correctly, the really unhappy effect of overcharging starts one hour after hitting the 100% mark, meaning the battery produces hydrogen.  About 140% overcharge the amount of hydrogen gets enough to become a problem, meaning your battery could break / burn out or walk around!

 

 

I'm also curious- how many car batteries (if it's possible at all) would you need interconnected to output household currents, and how long could they run stuff with a full charge?

I am very bad on these calculations, but I give it a try:

A car battery runs on 12V with about 50 Amphere: 12Vx50A = 600Watt.

Usually 10% get lost because of Ben, the bad cable and from the first second on the Amphere is dropping with the energy level of the battery itself. So I guess a car battery gives about 500-200W. A fridge usually needs about 600-1200W, depending on its size. So you need about 5-10 batteries for your refrigerator or an inverter if you use only one. Now here's the part where I was sleeping at school, but I think it will run the fridge for 6 hours with the battery park and for one hour with the inverter.

Generally has to be said that a car battery isn't made for long time usage like this, so they will never shine on this purpose.

[Rathlord]

 

Yup, those were the ones I was thinking of. I wonder how fast a modern car/boat battery would get burnt out from constant overcharging?

Lithium batteries cannot overcharge. Nickel-Cadmium does. If I remember correctly, the really unhappy effect of overcharging starts one hour after hitting the 100% mark, meaning the battery produces hydrogen.  About 140% overcharge the amount of hydrogen gets enough to become a problem, meaning your battery could break / burn out or walk around!

 

Your overcharge time can't be calculated like that- it depends on how much power you're putting in. Could be anything from a second to a month depending on the current.

 

Edit: And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't lithium ion/lithium polymer batteries still only on power tools at their biggest? I don't recall ever seeing a car or boat battery or anything of that size in lithium.

[Bolgfred]

 

Your overcharge time can't be calculated like that- it depends on how much power you're putting in. 

 

For normal people like thats right. I am just quotiing my lecturer, and he tried it in a lab with unconventional tools so I dunno what he did

 

 

Your overcharge time can't be calculated like that- it depends on how much power you're putting in. Could be anything from a second to a month depending on the current.

 

Thats the funny part I think. 

 

 

Your overcharge time can't be calculated like that- it depends on how much power you're putting in. Could be anything from a second to a month depending on the current.

 

Edit: And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't lithium ion/lithium polymer batteries still only on power tools at their biggest? I don't recall ever seeing a car or boat battery or anything of that size in lithium.

 

 

Yep. Thats correct. Cars are NiMh or something. Just wanted to say that you cannot overload your laptop battery, but a car battery will cause great unhappiness if charged for too long without any safety shutdown (which maybe could be a cool thing for the game I think).

[Rathlord]

If laptop batteries can't be overcharged, why does the charger switch off and let them run down a few percent before flipping back on when they're full? That's the same thing that, for instance, both traditional an li-po battery chargers do for R/C cars.

[Bolgfred]

Iwhy does the charger switch off and let them run down a few percent before flipping back on when they're full? That's the same thing that, for instance, both traditional an li-po battery chargers do for R/C cars.

 I don't know how it works but li-batteries should have a ... eh...  some kind of safety bolt which prevents them from overloading. What you see isn't overloading. It sounds for me like stop-and-start when the battery level goes to 99%. The big advantage of Li-batteries is that they don't need to be fully de-charged, so they don't become unhappy if you're continuously reload them.

[Rathlord]

Fair enough, thanks for the info.

[EnigmaGrey]

Actually, you can overcharge a lithium ion battery without much effort . . . if it doesn't have a built in charger circuit, like most laptop batteries and tool packs do. If you ever open one up, you'll just find a collection of cylindrical cells and a circuit board. Remove the circuit board, and overload/discharge protection is gone.

[Kajin]

We do start to reach a certain point where things just get too complicated for a game. I'm all for an in depth electrical system but I think that's getting just a little bit too into it. I think some concessions for gameplay have to be made in order to balance things out into something easily understood and implemented while still remaining a complicated challenge.

 

Here's my idea. Devices take a certain amount of watts per hour. Different methods of electrical generation create a certain amount of watts per hour. Your battery grid stores a certain amount of total watts. Excess power generation over consumption gets added to the batteries which store power for occasions when power cannot be generated (Wind not blowing. Sky overcast. No fuel for the generator. No fire going and generating steam. However you choose to power your base and whatever methods the devs decide to add). The grid needs to be carefully managed to ensure power generated does not exceed power consumed by too wide a margin.. If this happens and power generates in excess, the batteries start to overload which wears them down and eventually breaks them. Appliances, too, except they can also be damaged if sufficient power isn't maintained. In order to manage this, generators will need to be shut down or turned back on and appliances will need to be disabled or reactivated in order to strike a balance between generation, consumption, and storage.

 

A skilled electrician will be able to determine these properties and manage the power grid accordingly. Careful managing of the power grid is needed in order to make sure nothing goes wrong. Best case scenario, key parts of your grid break and need repaired or replaced. Batteries start leaking acid. Wires start to fry. The big freezer breaks down and your stored meat supplies begin to spoil unless it's repaired or replaced, dependent on damage done. Worst case scenario, there's a short circuit and it fries out your whole grid, necessitating repair or replacement of everything electrical. Or maybe an errant spark starts a fire and destroys a portion of your base. Possibly a significant portion of your base.

 

I think this comes close to striking a proper balance between realism and gameplay while still maintaining an inherent amount of difficulty. Thoughts? Ideas? 

[Rathlord]

Worth noting that big batteries can legitimately burn if treated wrong, somewhat 'explosively' at that.

 

I have to admit I'm still just not real sold on the idea of solar/wind power from sources that aren't already set up. I would never find a converter (wouldn't know where to look or what it looked like even if hit on the head with one). I just don't personally belive the average human being can set up a power source like this out of the blue; there's just too many concessions for me. That's just my opinion, though. I think generators and possibly several places in the game world with pre-installed solar/wind power would be the most realistic option.

[Mikhail Reign]

Alternater+Radiator Fan+Car battery+Wires+Car Headlights=Light system. That is literally all that's needed.

Also, an inverter is what the solar panels on your house already hook into.

Doubleplusalso, May start a new topic on this, but we should be able to power generators with wood gas as a replacement for petrol. That's just wood inside a drum, which is then heated by more wood. This creates gas that can be directly piped onto the fuel intake on any normal petrol engine. Again a VERY simple creation. They were used by every day people during the wars in the face of fuel shortages.

[Kajin]

The parts for building a power generator from scratch are ludicrously common. Most junk yards would probably have everything you need. Most houses contain at least some of what you need. Hell, every house that has air conditioning has an electric motor you could cannibalize and that's the most important piece for a generator.

 

Anyone with a moderate amount of skill in electrical work (say, level 2 or 3 in game) would be able to use these parts to build a generator. It wouldn't be as efficient as a professionally made one, but you'd get a decent amount of power out of it. Wind might not be the best power source in the world but like I said the parts are really common and anyone with the time to spare and an empty neighborhood worth of parts could cobble together a bunch of them no problem. I like the idea of having some buildings with preexisting independent grids, but I'm seeing no reason why people can't find ways to make their own power on their own terms.

 

Like I said, the best thing to do in my opinion is to just simplify all of that down to a system of gains, drains and storage and make power management a delicate balance between the three. Someone who isn't prepared to work their ass off for it shouldn't even bother with it because it'd cause more headaches than it remedied if they didn't give it their all. You can build your own generator, sure, but it's a big investment of time and effort and it won't pay off if you don't keep it maintained properly. I think that's an excellent balance against being able to build your own generators.