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Wind turbines, solar panels or generators?


brickgunner

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So, the electricity has run out, no more light and the fridge and stove have been made useless. BUT, what if you could artificially generate electricity so your food would last longer, electric lights can be used in your safe house again.

The electricity could only be generated by one of three methods:

1. generators, these generators run on gas (that is rare) and this method is the least efficient of the three methods as a generator is noisy when runny and it would only drain on the small amount of fuel that the player would have at that point. The generator is also able to be moved but it is heavy (20) so it is hard to move at all.

2. Solar panels, these generate electricity almost all the time; except when it rains and at night. Solar panels are also light and can be constructed if the right materials are at hand; wire, glass (this wold have to be implemented) and sheet metal (this will also have to be implemented.) The solar panels would have to be wired up to the house or appliances that are need or wired to a battery (taken from a car, when implemented) that would be able to be used whenever needed. Solar panels would require a high level of carpentry for them to be made; equally, you could take some off a neighbouring building and rewire and reattach them to your safe house.

3. Wind turbines would have to be made by hand and a high level of carpentry would be needed to make it; a lot of materials would also be needed, such as, sheet metal, wire, nails and a turbine (taken from a generator when taken apart.) To move a wind turbine that the player has made or found is virtually impossible.

 

In the case of all three, they would have to be wired up to the safe house or to batteries.

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I think there is no better way to destroy the feeling of survival than by clean, green energy from your own backyard. The joke of turning turning the light off is to NOT having any light anymore*.

 

Having a generator for certain situations would be cool if you could use it for: certain situations. Fuelling something casual like a fridge is... hell a not of excitement!!! But if a zombie horde attacks you at night, and you need a better sight you could activate the flood lights in front of your house and... ...well you wished you didn't see what you see,... but you can fight in shiny brighty lights.. for as long as your generator works.

 

But if you really want a solar panel in the game I want a rocket to leave this rotten planet.
 

*And making shitty movies

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2. Solar panels, these generate electricity almost all the time; except when it rains and at night. 

 

It works all the time except for when it doesn't.

 

No power generation is as simple as glass and wire.  If that was the case we would have had solar panels in the 1800's.  And solar panels aren't all that efficient.  If they get damaged in a storm even one section of a cell, the effectiveness is reduces by 75%.

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I've been looking into getting solar panels for my own house. From my research, two or three solar panels would be enough to at least keep a fridge and the stove powered and that's my biggest concern. And as was said before, solar panels aren't exactly the rarest of things. Hell, the government has a compensation program going where they help cover the cost of buying solar panels in order to encourage people using them, so I can understand coming across at least a few. They wouldn't be the most common item by any stretch of the imagination but they're out there.

 

Wind turbines would be something you could actually make yourself. All you need is a motor and you can find those pretty much everywhere. A motor is basically a copper winding that, when charged with electricity, creates a magnetic charge that in turn generates movement. Take the motor, jury rig some fan blades onto it (they'd have to be super light, but I imagine that building them can be done if you're skilled enough in carpentry or using incredibly light materials) and you can use wind to reverse the process. Instead of turning electricity into physical movement, you'd be turning physical movement into electricity. It'd be complicated as all hell to wire up and would require a fair bit of electrical expertise, but you could rig up a wind powered generator to keep a small amount of electricity flowing.

 

 

But if you really want a solar panel in the game I want a rocket to leave this rotten planet.

Not exactly a winning attitude, there. This suggestion is perfectly reasonable.

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If we are given tools that make the game more like a gardening and cooking game we should also have something that compensates it. So that your generator would need constantly fuel and it would be dangerous to get it. Or windturbine should get broken at times or drag lightning or something. It sounds lame if zombies are not a danger anymore in a zombie survival game.

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But if you really want a solar panel in the game I want a rocket to leave this rotten planet.

Not exactly a winning attitude, there. This suggestion is perfectly reasonable.

I See I got misunderstood somehow - i don't See a technical reason against Solar Panels. I put Some in my roof by myself and Now they collect 40% of my energy. My Point is that a endless Power Source like solar Energy doesn't fit my understanding of the PZ setting.

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But if you really want a solar panel in the game I want a rocket to leave this rotten planet.

Not exactly a winning attitude, there. This suggestion is perfectly reasonable.

I See I got misunderstood somehow - i don't See a technical reason against Solar Panels. I put Some in my roof by myself and Now they collect 40% of my energy. My Point is that a endless Power Source like solar Energy doesn't fit my understanding of the PZ setting.

 

I don't see how you'd think that. The power isn't really truly endless. The power lasts as long as you have the solar panels. And solar panels are pretty visible. What's to stop other people from coming in and taking your solar panels? Or even destroying them just because they don't want you having them?

 

The power provided by solar panels would make managing your base easier, definitely. It will also make you a more visible target to people who want that power for themselves so you'd damn well better be prepared to do what it takes to defend yourself.

 

I think all of this fits the setting of Project Zomboid rather well.

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I don't see how you'd think that. The power isn't really truly endless.

Simple calculation:

1. Solar Panel have an estimate of 25 years work time.

2. My longest survival so far is 146 days

3. This my eighth survivor in 6 month

 

25years * 365days(year) / 146day(survivor) * 6month(playtime) / 12month(year) = 3,9 years(realtime)

If I find some solar panels they will keep me happy until 2018. I consider this a long period and dare to call it "endless", which is not correct and should be replaced with 2018. My bad, but I hope I could make  you see how I'd think that.

 

I know I am better than you!!!!!

 

[/shitstorm]

I think all of this fits the setting of Project Zomboid rather well.

 

So we shared opinions, but still think different*. I am okay with that** and I wish you too.

 

 

 

*This might be caused cause you think multiplayer and I don't, but nevermind.

**I go back and build my rocket. Next to my wizard tower.

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I am not a big fan of renewable energy in survival games. Would it be realistic to find solar panels or wind mills? Sure it would. But do we really want them in the game?

 

My position is simple. The thing I like the most about good survival games, is that you have to leave your comfy base to scavange for items. As soon as you introduce unlimited power (slightly exaggerated but I hope you know what I mean), you kind of loose the incentive to go out and scavange for fuel sources. Power generators are already coming into the game and that is cool, because you will still need fuel to power them. But I personally dislike anything that gives me something for free in a survival game, I love it in real life, but not in game.

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nothing in this game comes free, there is always some type of risk associated with it. just because you may find and set up some panels at your base, that does not mean that some roving NPC group won't decide that you don't deserve to keep it any longer and run you out of town, or just flat out destroy them just because it looked fun.

 

everything has potential to bite us in the butt and lead to either our death or us making some new friends. that means making a fire at night, building a 2 or 3 level watch tower, throwing some panels on the roof, getting spotted and followed while on a loot run, running a generator.......etc.

 

just because something was in your possession when you started the game one day, that does not mean it will still be yours when you log off. you could very easily be left homeless and with nothing on your inventory.  so don't assume that getting some panels at your base means you just "won" PZ.

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I don't see how you'd think that. The power isn't really truly endless.

Simple calculation:

1. Solar Panel have an estimate of 25 years work time.

2. My longest survival so far is 146 days

3. This my eighth survivor in 6 month

 

25years * 365days(year) / 146day(survivor) * 6month(playtime) / 12month(year) = 3,9 years(realtime)

If I find some solar panels they will keep me happy until 2018. I consider this a long period and dare to call it "endless", which is not correct and should be replaced with 2018. My bad, but I hope I could make  you see how I'd think that.

 

I know I am better than you!!!!!

 

[/shitstorm]

I think all of this fits the setting of Project Zomboid rather well.

 

So we shared opinions, but still think different*. I am okay with that** and I wish you too.

 

 

 

*This might be caused cause you think multiplayer and I don't, but nevermind.

**I go back and build my rocket. Next to my wizard tower.

 

Yes, please, ignore the whole middle part between the two sections of my post you quoted where I go into detail explaining exactly why solar power isn't actually endless. And no, I don't think that because of other players in multiplayer. I think that because of other survivors, period. One of the single biggest features still being worked on is NPC survivors which can and will make your life a thousand times more miserable given the chance.

 

You're going about this like I'm claiming solar power is some magical cure all that will solve all the problems ever, but I'm not nor have I at any point. It'll fix one problem (not having power) and introduce a whole bunch of other problems (not having enough power. Accidentally electrocuting yourself. Maintenance issues brought on by storms, winds, rain, hail, destruction from random gunfire or just general wear and tear. Random lightning bolt hitting a panel and frying out all electrical equipment in the house because you never grounded properly. Other survivors wanting the solar panels and coming in to slit your throat etc.). You think it'll be overpowered, but you're not thinking about what sort of problems it might cause or what sort of other problems might be involved that'll still make life complicated regardless of whether you have power or not.

 

 

I am not a big fan of renewable energy in survival games. Would it be realistic to find solar panels or wind mills? Sure it would. But do we really want them in the game?

Well, given that one of the stated goals of Project Zomboid is to come as close to emulating real life situations as possible and that renewable power sources like wind or solar energy are indeed possible to come by in real life... Yes, it would be a good idea to add it into the game. People would indeed seek out ways to bring the power back on. They'll find solar panels and they'll rig together wind turbines from the supplies they have on hand. This is a realistic response to the situation at hand and it should be added into the game.

 

My position is simple. The thing I like the most about good survival games, is that you have to leave your comfy base to scavange for items. As soon as you introduce unlimited power (slightly exaggerated but I hope you know what I mean), you kind of loose the incentive to go out and scavange for fuel sources. Power generators are already coming into the game and that is cool, because you will still need fuel to power them. But I personally dislike anything that gives me something for free in a survival game, I love it in real life, but not in game.

See above, regarding unlimited power not being the ultimate end-all-be-all gamebreaker you seem to think it is. It's not a bottle of snake oil and it won't cure everything that ails ya. You'll still have problems to contend with. Repairs and maintenance will need to be done. Panels can be broken. Wires can burn out. The same also applies for whatever is using the power. Your stove will eventually need to be repaired. So will your fridge and your lights and anything else you're using. Other people will want to acquire your power source from you and might not care much for how they go about doing it. All of these are problems that will need addressing. You're not "getting anything for free" if you manage to get your hands on a self generating power source that doesn't require the occasional fuel run to keep it going. You won't lose any incentive for going out on supply runs because there will be any one of another ten or twenty different reasons to go out on another supply run.

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Well I guess it all depends on how it will be implemented in the game. If the devs do indeed introduce wear and tear, I would welcome it.

 

But I am curious did they mention anything that would suggest such a thing?

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Dunno, but I'd be a little disappointed if they didn't add it. I'm sure the devs wouldn't give us something like a solar panel and not add ways for it to be damaged or otherwise be rendered into a useless state somehow. Honestly I'm hoping for wear and tear on all electrical items eventually. Would be quite the predicament if you're storing large amounts of meat in a freezer but it all goes bad because your fridge broke and you couldn't find the parts to repair it in time.

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Dunno, but I'd be a little disappointed if they didn't add it. I'm sure the devs wouldn't give us something like a solar panel and not add ways for it to be damaged or otherwise be rendered into a useless state somehow. Honestly I'm hoping for wear and tear on all electrical items eventually. Would be quite the predicament if you're storing large amounts of meat in a freezer but it all goes bad because your fridge broke and you couldn't find the parts to repair it in time.

 

I absolutly agree with you, it would be great if wear and tear were to be introduced. Though on the subject of renewable energy, like I said, I would only welcome the idea if there were downsides to having them, that would at least balance the "free energy" aspect.

 

It kind of all hinges on how it might be implemented.

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You're going about this like I'm claiming solar power is some magical cure all that will solve all the problems ever, but I'm not nor have I at any point. It'll fix one problem (not having power) and introduce a whole bunch of other problems (not having enough power. Accidentally electrocuting yourself. Maintenance issues brought on by storms, winds, rain, hail, destruction from random gunfire or just general wear and tear. Random lightning bolt hitting a panel and frying out all electrical equipment in the house because you never grounded properly. Other survivors wanting the solar panels and coming in to slit your throat etc.). You think it'll be overpowered, but you're not thinking about what sort of problems it might cause or what sort of other problems might be involved that'll still make life complicated regardless of whether you have power or not.

 

This is the basis of his entire argument and the reason this isn't going to get anywhere. Kajin has invested in the idea of solar panels because he has for some reason also assumed that the devs are going to implement...

 

  • Chance of instant electrocution death when handling electronics
  • Lightning strikes that light houses on fire
  • A system of electrical installation so robust that it includes proper and improper grounding conditions
  • Weather that corrosively damages exposed building and furniture objects
  • Jealous NPCs that sneak onto your roof and steal your furniture

If you want to solve power failure, let's add solar panels. If you want to solve gasoline shortages, let's add electric cars. We already have rain barrels and irrigated farming, so the last step in postponing your death inevitably is to add a cure to the infection, or just really thick scratch-negating sweater mechanics. 

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You're going about this like I'm claiming solar power is some magical cure all that will solve all the problems ever, but I'm not nor have I at any point. It'll fix one problem (not having power) and introduce a whole bunch of other problems (not having enough power. Accidentally electrocuting yourself. Maintenance issues brought on by storms, winds, rain, hail, destruction from random gunfire or just general wear and tear. Random lightning bolt hitting a panel and frying out all electrical equipment in the house because you never grounded properly. Other survivors wanting the solar panels and coming in to slit your throat etc.). You think it'll be overpowered, but you're not thinking about what sort of problems it might cause or what sort of other problems might be involved that'll still make life complicated regardless of whether you have power or not.

 

This is the basis of his entire argument and the reason this isn't going to get anywhere. Kajin has invested in the idea of solar panels because he has for some reason also assumed that the devs are going to implement...

 

  • Chance of instant electrocution death when handling electronics
  • Lightning strikes that light houses on fire
  • A system of electrical installation so robust that it includes proper and improper grounding conditions
  • Weather that corrosively damages exposed building and furniture objects
  • Jealous NPCs that sneak onto your roof and steal your furniture

If you want to solve power failure, let's add solar panels. If you want to solve gasoline shortages, let's add electric cars. We already have rain barrels and irrigated farming, so the last step in postponing your death inevitably is to add a cure to the infection, or just really thick scratch-negating sweater mechanics. 

 

 

 

*sighs*

 

Okay, so you're basically telling me that my thoughts and opinions are wrong and that you can't bother to argue against me properly so you're just going to try and undermine me instead. This is the suggestions forum, where we suggest things. Things that may or may not fit in the game. Bolgfred and Fluffy were both afraid that solar panels and other renewable sources of energy were overpowered, so I thought through the chains of logic and considered what troubles might come about by having such things and came up with some possible arguments that might mollify their concerns. I may or may not have succeeded, but I gave it a shot because, and say it with me this time, this is the suggestions forum. Where we debate about what may or may not make for a good feature in the game.

 

 

 

  • Chance of instant electrocution death when handling electronics
  • Lightning strikes that light houses on fire
  • A system of electrical installation so robust that it includes proper and improper grounding conditions
  • Weather that corrosively damages exposed building and furniture objects
  • Jealous NPCs that sneak onto your roof and steal your furniture

 

 

Death by electrocution? Probably a bit much, but you could still take damage from a nasty shock if your electrical skill is low or you're handling something built by someone with low skill. Electrical equipment is fickle like that. Professionals who work with it all their lives still get the occasional nasty shock. What's to stop some amateur survivor hurting themselves while trying to rig up something that would be useful?

 

I never said that a lightning strike would set the whole damnable house on fire. I said that it would fry the electrical equipment being used if proper measures aren't taken to keep it from happening and that would suck for the survivor that rigged it all up. This is a valid concern even without solar panels on your roof, and it would be doubly so for someone just trying to get by after the end of the world.

 

Maybe the devs do decide to go for a good robust electrical system? I'm pretty sure they said something about wanting to add a skill involving electrical work and having a system for electrical equipment in place would be good. Maybe I'm remembering wrong and they never said that, but that doesn't change the fact that it could be a good idea to implement such a thing.

 

Why wouldn't weather wear down player made structures? That's what weather does. Wind knocks stuff down and rips it up. Rain soaks stuff through and damages it. Hail is a solid chunk of pain that can crack fragile things like glass or damage shingles protecting your roof from leaks. There are all sorts of fun complications to be had there, and I hope the devs explore such things in the future. Having a good handyman on staff to repair these damages would be a valuable asset for any fortress.

 

Why wouldn't some survivor grow jealous of you for having something they didn't? The devs themselves have said that NPCs will be programmed with their own personality traits that make them all react to situations differently. It wouldn't be much of a challenge if every single one of them were care bears that only ever wanted to give you hugs instead of taking your life's blood and nicking all your stuff. There's literally nothing stopping one of them from coming in and taking my valuable resources that they think they need more than I do. And that's not even getting into the behaviors of other players who may very well just set fire to my house and destroy everything in it just for shits and giggles.

 

 

If you want to solve power failure, let's add solar panels. If you want to solve gasoline shortages, let's add electric cars. We already have rain barrels and irrigated farming, so the last step in postponing your death inevitably is to add a cure to the infection, or just really thick scratch-negating sweater mechanics. 

And once again, this is not an appropriate response. I appreciate the driest of sarcasm as much as the next guy, but this is hardly the place for it. Once again, it's the suggestions forum. If you don't like an idea, explain why you don't like it. Don't waste people's time with a non argument that does nothing to further discussion.

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My dear Kajin, or anyone Else who Feels threatened by this post,

Don't you think you are taking this discussion a bit too personal? Actually we all shared our ideas and opinions and suggestions, which is good because its the Suggestion forum, yes.

But if someone disagrees with you, and even if you totally know That he is wrong, Sometimes You just have to accept that. And After you are repeating yourself for the fourth Time, maybe go with those People in a private Chat and get A solution or let it be. Without a judge/dev a decision can't be forced. There is nö wrong or right, there are just opinions. ... And my mobil phone giving me a Hard Time writing.

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Personally? Yeah, maybe a little. I take a lot of joy in debate over game design and the flow of creative ideas. I'm quite passionate about it.  Looking for ways to follow through the chain of logic of an idea and convey the resulting thoughts in an acceptable pattern for other interested parties is, overall, a satisfying experience for me. So I tend to get a bit worked up if I feel one or more of the other parties aren't taking the debate seriously.

 

I accept the fact that I may not be able to change minds, but I find the process of the debate itself to be rather fulfilling. It's good mental exercise.

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This is the basis of his entire argument and the reason this isn't going to get anywhere. Kajin has invested in the idea of solar panels because he has for some reason also assumed that the devs are going to implement...

 

Mafia, this isn't being lovely. Be kinder, nicer, please. Spend the time to frame your arguments into a friendly discussion, rather than attacking someone directly. You may not have meant to, but that's how it reads. If you find yourself getting angry or annoyed, step away for a bit rather than taking it out on your fellow forum members.

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I'm definitely all for finding solar panels somewhat rarely in the game. They don't provide a whole heck of a lot of power, and would probably require at least Electrical skill 3 or so to even wire up. They could easily be balanced (as Kajin has mentioned) in several ways:

 

1- Small amounts of power

2- Requiring a very large battery farm to be reliable at night/during weather

3- Possibility to become damaged when installing

4- Possibility to become damaged during weather

5- Possibility to become damaged over time

6- Possibility to be stolen by NPC's or other players (which is a very reasonable assumption- NPC's will steal, I'll tell you that right now)

 

None of these balance mechanics are unrealistic or would be stretches to add. Most of the mechanics exist already or are being worked on. It adds a late game goal (which is something the game needs right now) and provides solid counter-play for hostile factions as well. If you have a solar panel, you are less likely to want to wander or roam. This makes you an easy target for raids, or also for just making the bad decision to try to stay and defend your nicely powered home when the zombies come.

 

That being said, I don't think wind turbines are within the grasp of the vast majority of normal people. Kentucky has very few prebuilt ones around due to proximity to mountains making wind energy quite unreliable. It would never be able to add much power if sticking to roughly realistic numbers for the area, and the amount of technical skill that would need to go into this would be farrrrr higher.

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Aye, wind turbines aren't really something you could find due to the proximity of mountains. If you hooked one up, the inconsistency of the winds would likely only provide you an inconsistent stream of power. Rather unreliable. The one way it'd be of any actual use at all is if you attached them to a supply of batteries to act as a supplement to whatever other power source you happen to be using. You'd get occasional bursts of extra energy whenever the wind blows, but it wouldn't be reliable.

 

But I do disagree with the notion that it'd be too difficult to rig together a wind turbine. If you have an electric motor you have the most important piece for an electrical generator. Almost every house has at least one electric blower motor in the indoor air conditioning unit that'll be useless once the power goes out anyway. All you'd need is pull it out and hook it up to something that'll generate physical movement. Anything, really. Heck you could probably generate the movement you need from steam power if you had a fireproof container with a way to regulate steam pressure and a steady supply of burning material. If you build a brick oven for cooking you could rig together a fan inside the chimney (if the brick oven included one) to turn the motor and generate electricity whenever you cook.

 

After you have the motor and the source of movement, it really only takes a moderate amount of skill to hook it up to the power grid. If you have enough skill to work on this stuff for a living, you have enough skill to rig together an electric generator that uses wind (or any other source of movement) for power.

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