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Need more help for weapons..


RobertJohnson

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The point is, the developers obviously have all this in mind already, so let's cut them a break and trust that they're gonna deliver an update that's the level of quality we've come to expect from Indie Stone.  They test their work thoroughly and I've never been displeased with the balance of the game after any previous updates.  I'm certain this ranged weapon revamp will be top notch!

 

You are probably right, and I won't bother to argue who knows better when pitted against someone who lives there.  I'll just hope for the best, and bow out of this discussion.  Good luck folks, and remember to keep giving suggestions in order to help the Devs fine tune this amazing game. Cheers! :)

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I would love to see an ammo system like that in DayZ.  How you have the bullets in your inventory and it shows how many but you also have magazines.  So instead of just loading bullets directly into a pistol you should be able to get magazines, fill them with bullets and then use them in the gun.  This is a much more realistic system and obviously it does not need to be used for shotguns.

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I just wonder how heavy flashlights you're used to... 1kg ones, lol? Flashlight attachment can also be weapon designed, mind you. Small and light weighted. But taping a normal one, well... At the cost of accuracy and weight, why not? I Would love to have one in shotgun in this game. You damn surely want light during night attack.

Bayonets... Could provide spear-like, longer range attack but it has disadvantages (weight hinders aiming, might require more space to wield effectively, risk of filth in barrel, getting stuck etc).

Item Weapon tool kit could be an easy solution - tools for cleaning and customization. As some weapons may have storages for cleaning kits and screwdriver in the stock part,it would be nasty to hunt those items one by one.

Craftable/lootable strap for easier weapon carrying was a nice idea. Allows carrying a gun with a backpack etc.

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I would love to see an ammo system like that in DayZ.  How you have the bullets in your inventory and it shows how many but you also have magazines.  So instead of just loading bullets directly into a pistol you should be able to get magazines, fill them with bullets and then use them in the gun.  This is a much more realistic system and obviously it does not need to be used for shotguns.

 

This is not the thread for suggestion.

And it's already the case if you modify the reloading difficulty

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I debated that with myself and just couldn't come up with a way it'd work nicely. You'd have to be outside doing it, with a gun rest. You've got to fre at the range you're aiming to be accurate at or you can't zero in.

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Although people are saying that more customization has ruined other games, I don't see that happening with Project Zomboid, in my opinion the more customization the better, same goes for vehicles when they're added, I think that there should be plenty of ways to 'upgrade' your vehicles (within the bounds of reality obviously).

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Although people are saying that more customization has ruined other games, I don't see that happening with Project Zomboid, in my opinion the more customization the better, same goes for vehicles when they're added, I think that there should be plenty of ways to 'upgrade' your vehicles (within the bounds of reality obviously).

 

I agree, bear in mind that the weapon modifications aren't OP, it's not because you have a fully upgraded rifle that you'll know how to use it, you still need a high aiming level to use a rifle, and the upgrades add small stats number, like hit chance modifier + 3% etc...

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Sorry, I don't get this 'zeroing' stuff..

the term or why it was discussed? If former ---> adjusting sights to match distance. Some guns (assault rifle for example) has settings for 100, 150 and 300 m distances.
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No, I'm saying if you duct tape a flashlight to a rifle it won't help you light up anything you're shooting at and will vastly decrease your accuracy.

 

So sure, let them do it, and reduce accuracy by 95%. Bleach at least is common sense, most people would have no idea about this and would try it. It would be a noob trap that tremendously reduced gameplay value and frustrates people. You could also let them duct tape an anvil to their gun- after all, you can do that in real life, too.

 

What are you on about? How can you say a flashlight makes you MORE INNACURATE when you mount it on a gun? Okay headshot the zombie in the room below. You have one bullet.

 

black1.gif

 

Oh wait can't see it? That must be the 95% innacuracy caused by having a flashlight...

 

You see my point? It enhances accuracy by allowing you to see things and actually aim. This insignificant reduction in accuracy you are raving about would only take effect at very long ranges, ranges you cannot use a flashlight on anyway. And saying that having a light pointed in the direction of your gun is somehow not illuminating "anything" is ridiculous.

 

(Not Rathlord's suggestion, but would have even worse negative buffs than taping it.)

As is saying holding a weapon (rifle) in one hand and a flashlight in your supporting hand is somehow more effective and less of a detriment to aiming is also ludicrous and stupid because you are STILL HOLDING the light and it still has the weight you so vehemently combat against.

 

Also, I have put flashlights on all manner of weapon and if the weight of a little plastic light is too much for your arm to handle then maybe you should not be holding a firearm? Also, seeing where you are shooting is a pretty vital aspect of aiming.

 

I can't believe the arguments I read from you, they are so far removed from reality it is literally laughable.

 

(Edited to make it clear that the holding of the light is not Rathlord's suggestion)

Edited by Viceroy
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Sigh.

Flashlight (counterweight)  + 26" rifle (lever).

I doubt Rathlord meant a comparison between darkness and light when discussing accuracy. And, please, remember that all flashlights aren't weighed equal (or maybe I just like the idea of someone duct taping a 6 C-cell flashlight to the end of a shotgun for some reason).

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lol, what good would it do to pistol whip a zombie? they don't really have to worry about their teeth getting broken anymore

 

If you have ever held a gun you would know they carry some weight and can be used similar to a clubbed weapon, although shorter.  Are you saying you couldn't bash a zombies head in with a club?

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When it comes to Zombies, it's more a case of "they don't feel pain" (or at least don't appear to beyond a groan.)

 

It takes several smacks to the face with a Baseball Bat and a Hammer and even a Fireaxe to knock one over.

The Zombies have to be impaired beyond physical ability before they stop "dead".

 

Hitting somebody over the head with the butt of your pistol would be painful and may incapacitate a conscious being but if the other weapons in Zomboid are any reference, then I doubt pistol whipping a Zombie would be effective at all. I'd say a Hammer would have more of a blunt impact force than the butt of a pistol.

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(Not Rathlord's suggestion, but would have even worse negative buffs than taping it.)

As is saying holding a weapon (rifle) in one hand and a flashlight in your supporting hand is somehow more effective and less of a detriment to aiming is also ludicrous and stupid because you are STILL HOLDING the light and it still has the weight you so vehemently combat against.

 

Also, I have put flashlights on all manner of weapon and if the weight of a little plastic light is too much for your arm to handle then maybe you should not be holding a firearm? Also, seeing where you are shooting is a pretty vital aspect of aiming.

 

I can't believe the arguments I read from you, they are so far removed from reality it is literally laughable.

 

(Edited to make it clear that the holding of the light is not Rathlord's suggestion)

 

 

Whoa, calm down now, bro.  I was the one who made that suggestion almost 3 pages back and I believe, if you reread my post, you'll see I made no mention of what you described being a good idea in real life.  The point I made at the time was that with PZ's current mechanics (all firearms being one-handed) it was a moot point to argue about "attaching" a flashlight to the gun or not (via by rail mount, duct tape, or whatever) because by virtue of the guns being currently onehanded you always had a free secondary slot to which you could equip a flashlight to achieve the same effect.

 

I then used that as a segue to ask if firearms were having their "handedness" modified in the revamp, which RJ answered succinctly.  I'm not looking to argue the matter with anyone now and that wasn't really my intention then.  I suggest you learn to take things less personally.  It'll help your blood pressure in the long run.

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Viceroy, get back to me when you have real firearms experience. I've been hunting at night. Holding a flashlight by the stock of your gun is MUCH easier to hold than having it on the end. It's a simple matter of physics- as EG mentions.

You thinking that holding a rifle o your shoulder and aiming it isn't strenuous on the body just shows your ignorance. Many hunters won't even take a shot without having something to rest the gun on because it's quite hard to hold a steady aim standing up. This isn't because of magic, it's because guns are heavy to hold out like that.

If you're in such a shitty situation that you're trying to kill zombies at close range in the dark with a rifle, you either need to run or die. You'd be infinitely better off with a melee weapon. If you're trying to shoot zombies within the very short range cone of light provided by a small enough flashlight to fit on the end of your gun, then you deserve to be naturally selected out when the zombies kill you. There's no scenario where having a light on the end of a high powered hunting rifle would increase the odds of your survival.

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I'm failing to see how duct taping an anvil to a gun relates to duct taping something the size of Maglite mini or your generic small flashlight onto a gun. Especially when you consider that attaching lights  to a weapon using a rail system is not exactly an unusual thing to do. Or is a rail somehow so magical that it is completely fine, whereas a solidly taped light isn't?

 

It's exactly as relevant as duct taping a flashlight if we're just listing off things that are possible to do in real life. I already explained that shorter guns work fine with especially with specialty lights that are made to fit the gun, be lightweight, and do a specific job (aka the kind that go on rails). You won't find a long barreled hunting ("sniper") rifle anywhere with a light on a rail system because it would be stupid as hell. We're not talking about assault rifles or handguns here, we're talking about 26" barrel length rifles.

 

Instead of entrenching because it's an internet forum, you could just admit you're wrong here. Obviously in the ridiculously narrow situations you're describing, you're right. You're totally cherry picking your own facts.

 

 

 
It's exactly as relevant as duct taping a flashlight if we're just listing off things that are possible to do in real life. I already explained that shorter guns work fine with especially with specialty lights that are made to fit the gun, be lightweight, and do a specific job (aka the kind that go on rails). You won't find a long barreled hunting ("sniper") rifle anywhere with a light on a rail system because it would be stupid as hell. We're not talking about assault rifles or handguns here, we're talking about 26" barrel length rifles.

 

 

The lack of a popular light mod for bolt action rails does not entail that a light mod is terrible for all situations. The only reason you don't find a light mod for a bolt action's rail system is because at the range it is intended to be used, literally anything would be more useful. If you wanted to hunt in the dark at the range it's intended, you'd have to use some kind of lit scope or infrar scope to actually see the intended distance. Not to mention the fact that aiming a flashlight at an animal is a terrible strategy for stealth. Although I'm sure there are exceptions, a normal light mod would get in the way of your scope mod on a bolt action's top-mounted rail system, so attaching one instead of some combo lit scope is basically saying "I plan to use this gun like a retard." But if you intend to fire without properly scoping at short ranges in the dark, then having a light mod instead of a scope would in no way reduce your maneuverability or accuracy.

 

It follows that attaching a light mod would not reduce accuracy at the range it actually lights any more than not having it attached would. A long barrel rifle is sort of difficult to aim precisely at that short range, but it's not like you'd have to hip fire it like some kind of angry hillbilly, either. You could still fire it from the shoulder, though you wouldn't have time (even if it was possible) to aim down a scope. You would flash sight by shouldering the rifle and positioning your head near above and beside the barrel to aim and correct for followup shots, which is what they teach you in the army specifically for firing rifles at close range in the dark. Having a light so you don't have to rely on muzzle flash to see is only going to make things easier.

 

You don't need to aim down sight to hit with a long gun. Obviously it's better, but in a combat situation at the distances where a flashlight would be relevant, you probably aren't going to have time to look down a sight and build a proper castle. You're going to have to flash sight, and you can pretty much do it as well with a shoulder-mounted rifle as you can with a straight-armed pistol.
 

 

Also duct taping a flashlight to the end of a long weapon will exponentially increase the difficulty of holding it out straight and accurate. Weight at the end of a barrel is always a bad idea. Stuff like short assault rifles gets away with this because aiming with them is much more primitive and they aren't as long, so the effect of the weight isn't as big.

 

No one is saying you should duct tape a flashlight to the barrel of a long gun. Obviously that is ridiculous and your attack on a straw man is just obfuscating the argument. You would attach the flashlight to the forestock, where your offhand grip would diffuse most of the added weight from effecting maneuverability. And even IF maneuverability was significantly reduced (which would take one fucked up looking flashlight), it would certainly not reduce control significantly. My rifle could weigh twice what it does, and I'd still be able to aim it straight. It would just take longer.

 

 

No, I'm saying if you duct tape a flashlight to a rifle it won't help you light up anything you're shooting at and will vastly decrease your accuracy.

 

So sure, let them do it, and reduce accuracy by 95%. Bleach at least is common sense, most people would have no idea about this and would try it. It would be a noob trap that tremendously reduced gameplay value and frustrates people. You could also let them duct tape an anvil to their gun- after all, you can do that in real life, too.

 

Gun weight does not influence accuracy to the hyperbolic amount you are stubbornly pretending it does. Given enough time to aim, the factors that influence the accuracy of a long gun are things like barrel length, distance, rifling twist rate, ammunition, familiarity, skill, etc. You'd have to be physically handicapped for a heavier or less balanced rifle that you're sufficiently familiar with to reduce your best accuracy. I'm in no way saying that aim times wouldn't be worse, but saying that accuracy would be reduced by 95% if I duct tape a flashlight to my forestock is embarrassing yourself for the amount of expertise you say you have. I could duct tape a fucking rock to my foregrip and as long as my arm doesn't tire, I could still aim my gun down range properly.

 

 

You thinking that holding a rifle to your shoulder and aiming it isn't strenuous on the body just shows your ignorance. Many hunters won't even take a shot without having something to rest the gun on because it's quite hard to hold a steady aim standing up. This isn't because of magic, it's because guns are heavy to hold out like that.

 

 

No one is saying that mounting your gun isn't better than shouldering your gun. But if we were to accept your proposition that mounting a long gun is the only way to effectively fire a long gun, then we would not be able to use long guns in the game at all. This would also invalidate the shotgun, which is also better aimed mounted when hunting. If you assert that we shouldn't be allowed to shoulder fire a bolt action rifle versus zombies, then you assert that we shouldn't be allowed to shoulder fire a hunting shotgun versus zombies, which is patently ridiculous. You need to give more ground in this conversation. We both know that mounting a gun is a terrible way to hit close targets, anyway. Saying that shouldering it is so ineffective that you're better off dropping your gun and fleeing like a little girl is maintaining your level of hyperbole that gets you nowhere in convincing anyone.

 

I'm not asking you to believe I'm at all informed on this. I'm only telling you that if you don't reconsider the ridiculously absurd position you've chosen for yourself, you're not going to convince anyone. Feel free to consult the army's third field guide on the matter, specifically page 38-40 where it outlines the best way to sight a long gun in combat, the compromising flash sight method, and the point blank method. There is more than YOUR way to handle and customize a rifle, and those other ways also work. Rather than unnecessarily attacking otherwise valid possibilities, you should use your expertise to encourage attention for good ideas. Attacking stupid ideas in a thread like this is just going to get them more attention. Besides, the only thing more obtuse on an internet forum than an entrenched self-declared expert is an entrenched undeclared idiot, and your method of "Hyperbole + Ridicule = I'm Right" is only going to bait any idiots in hiding out to argue ad infinitum.

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TTGfBe0JbhoJ:armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/fm3_23x35.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

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You talk about cherry picking and straw men and then spend 3/4 of your post doing that. I never said you can't use a rifle from the shoulder. My point was that the accuracy loss is such that most hunters don't when they can avoid it.

Mounting it to the foregrip would be LESS retarded, admittedly, but still retarded. Your accusation that I'm arguing a straw man is completely incorrect. Read the posts buddy, he specifically said mounted to the barrel several times.

You're also conveniently ignoring the entire point of my last post, which is that at any point where having a flashlight taped to your rifle would benefit you (at all), you'd be better served by running or fighting in melee, effectively making it a noob trap.

In the interest of adding to the discussion instead of continuing to push bad ideas just because we thought of them and can't admit we're wrong, here's a suggestion that actually makes sense.

Let us hold a secondary item with two-handed items equipped, but have the effect go away when we go into combat stance. This would simulate your ability to carry a rifle/axe/whatever in one hand and a flashlight in the other. When you go into combat stance it's quickly shoved in a pocket or what have you.

You seem to be calling my experience into question here (calling it a "claim"). If you'd like I can post pictures of my kills from the age of about 12 until today, and I'm sure my job would let me take a picture next to the huge plethora of firearms and equipment we sell. But I think we both know that was just a subtle attempt to discredit my opinion for readers; you know I know what I'm talking about.

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You talk about cherry picking and straw men and then spend 3/4 of your post doing that. I never said you can't use a rifle from the shoulder. My point was that the accuracy loss is such that most hunters don't when they can avoid it.

 

 

 
No, you say without elipses,

Many hunters won't even take a shot without having something to rest the gun on because it's quite hard to hold a steady aim standing up. 
 
If you're in such a shitty situation that you're trying to kill zombies at close range in the dark with a rifle, you either need to run or die. You'd be infinitely better off with a melee weapon.

 

 

 
You very specifically told everyone that a baseball bat is 9999+1 times more useful at short range than a shoulder-mounted rifle. That isn't "not shoulder firing when you can avoid it" advice. That's "you're better off dropping your gun and using anything else or running" advice.
 
Mounting it to the foregrip would be LESS retarded, admittedly, but still retarded. Your accusation that I'm arguing a straw man is completely incorrect. Read the posts buddy, he specifically said mounted to the barrel several times. 

 

 

 
He is not a gun expert, and it's your own fault as an expert for accepting his ignorance of jargon as an actual position. The point of this conversation isn't to beat idiots into not posting, it's to provide an accurate opinion. If you're going to argue that a duct taped flashlight is stupid, it's your responsibility to argue against the least retarded option instead of a straw man. I don't see how adding at most a half-kilo of weight to the center mass of a rifle would be retarded, when it would give you light instead of muzzle flash to see at your intended distance.
 
It is also statements like...
 
Mounting it to the foregrip would be LESS retarded, admittedly, but still retarded. 

 

 
that, where the only support you offer for it being "retarded" is your own expert knowledge as a reference, that force me to point that out as weak evidence. The purpose of this thread isn't to convince you, it's to provide information to the people that actually make decisions and to sway community opinion towards what I want. If you rely on your expert opinion instead of real explanations or factual references, then the only recourse people have to disagree with you is to question your validity as an expert. Wherever possible, I feel that I either provided my own evidence or addressed your evidence. 
 
You're also conveniently ignoring the entire point of my last post, which is that at any point where having a flashlight taped to your rifle would benefit you (at all), you'd be better served by running or fighting in melee, effectively making it a noob trap. 

 

 

 
I did not. I specifically disagree that a rifle is useless at close range, and provide the flash sight method as one option for properly aiming it. Since this method requires you to view the hit and adjust for follow-up shots, having light to see the hit seems like it would outweigh the cost of less than a half-kilo of weight to the center mass of your gun. The army manual says that lacking a light source, you should use the muzzle flash to view your hit and correct, which is obviously worse than having a constant source of light.
 
Edit: I'll go ahead and clarify that my position is the flashlight ingame is fucking useless anywhere it's needed anyway, so idc if I can attach it to my gun. The battery lasts 8 ingame hours and the light cone breaks instead of refracts when it hits a wall, making flashlights literally useless half the time when you're inside a building. I do think that as a trope and a game mechanic, it should be an option to improve playability, just atm I don't see it improving playability except to make you feel like you're roleplaying better. Simulationist design principles should end immediately where it starts interfering with gamist design principles. So things like balanced, realistic gun stats, accuracy and precision modifiers, aim time maluses based on barrel length and distance, and proper kentucky-style gun distributions sound great to me, but rules-lawyering out important zombie movie tropes like makeshift gun lights and chainsaws sounds bad.
 
Edit 2: I didn't say mounting it on a foregrip, I said mounting it on the forestock. I don't know many hunting bolt action rifles with a foregrip, unless you're talking about some kid's designer rifle that also has an underslung rail system for some unfathonable I-play-call-of-duty bullshit reason.
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