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Transgender/Non binary genders

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I'm sure the devs might be considering implementing this sort of thing already since they were keen on allowing skirts to work on male sprite models, but if not here we go; allow male or female character creation options on the opposite gender or even better, do away with the male-female dichotomy fully and allow a character with 'female' hair and 'female' breasts to have a 'male' beard.

Allowing transgendered characters is the basic idea, thoughts?

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How would someone troll using this feature? If they role-played a transgendered character they are roleplaying a transgendered character, how could they troll using this feature unless they were posting transphobic chat messages while also rp'ing a transgendered character, in which case they could troll without this feature anyway using the chat feature.

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allow a character with 'female' hair and 'female' breasts to have a 'male' beard

 

 

Most transgender people don't want a mixture of external sex traits, such as a beard and breasts; they identify as the opposite gender they were born into, in which case they could be represented through the game as simply picking the sex they identify with. 

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Yeah I just ran this by my transgender friend and He thought it was a bad idea.

Im pretty sure its enough for transgenders to be able to dress in either genders clothes, we don't need to knock it up to an unneeded notch.

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Well my point is theres more than 2 genders, so allow characters to be any gender they want.

Yeah I just ran this by my transgender friend and He thought it was a bad idea.

Im pretty sure its enough for transgenders to be able to dress in either genders clothes, we don't need to knock it up to an unneeded notch.

Can I ask why they said it was a bad idea?

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I think it's a great idea, if players want a cisgendered character (like what's available now) they can just make their character look either male or female. If they aren't cisgendered want to play as themselves, or they are cisgendered and want to roleplay as a character who's trans* or has a nonbinary gender identity then removing a pre-set dichotomy allows them to do that too. It allows for more freedom on the part of the player, a wider range of experiences available and it makes the game more representative.

 

I mean it'd basically just be a matter of removing the thing that says 'You can only be male or female' and instead giving players a character who doesn't really look particularly gendered at all and saying 'Be whoever you like', which is a good thing for a character creation system to do anyway.

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allow a character with 'female' hair and 'female' breasts to have a 'male' beard

 

 

Most transgender people don't want a mixture of external sex traits, such as a beard and breasts; they identify as the opposite gender they were born into, in which case they could be represented through the game as simply picking the sex they identify with. 

 

You're right that 'transgendered' is generally understood to refer specifically to people whose sex is male/female and gender is female/male respectively, but I think OP was using the term to refer to people with nonbinary gender identities too.

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How would someone troll using this feature? If they role-played a transgendered character they are roleplaying a transgendered character, how could they troll using this feature unless they were posting transphobic chat messages while also rp'ing a transgendered character, in which case they could troll without this feature anyway using the chat feature.

 

It will probably end up being the uniform of trolls though I suspect.

 

Not the actual mechanism of trolling.

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How would someone troll using this feature? If they role-played a transgendered character they are roleplaying a transgendered character, how could they troll using this feature unless they were posting transphobic chat messages while also rp'ing a transgendered character, in which case they could troll without this feature anyway using the chat feature.

It will probably end up being the uniform of trolls though I suspect.

Not the actual mechanism of trolling.

My mistake I misread your post, though it still isn't a reason not to have this feature which is essentially just a more open character creation screen.

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quite honestly, i fail to see a legitimate reason for the Devs to make it so you could have  "The Bearded Lady from the carnival" running around the game.

 

the characters in the game are supposed to just be average people in small town Kentucky, with average jobs, skills and traits.

 

this game is not the place for someone to make a stand for TransGender rights.

as has been said many times before, if this is what you want in your game.....why not learn how to make it into a mod?

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How would someone troll using this feature? If they role-played a transgendered character they are roleplaying a transgendered character, how could they troll using this feature unless they were posting transphobic chat messages while also rp'ing a transgendered character, in which case they could troll without this feature anyway using the chat feature.

It will probably end up being the uniform of trolls though I suspect.

Not the actual mechanism of trolling.

My mistake I misread your post, though it still isn't a reason not to have this feature which is essentially just a more open character creation screen.

 

 

Without meaning to be offensive or anything, there is a reason- it might be quite a bit of work to change the model system to work with swapping male and female 'parts' around. If you balance this with the amount of people that will probably use the feature correctly, I'm not so sure it's so worthwhile when you can just select the gender you most identify with.

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quite honestly, i fail to see a legitimate reason for the Devs to make it so you could have  "The Bearded Lady from the carnival" running around the game.

 

the characters in the game are supposed to just be average people in small town Kentucky, with average jobs, skills and traits.

 

this game is not the place for someone to make a stand for TransGender rights.

as has been said many times before, if this is what you want in your game.....why not learn how to make it into a mod?

 

The fact that you see people with nonbinary genders as "The Bearded Lady from the carnival", or that you see transgender people as being somehow not "average people" shows that this is exactly the place to "make a stand for TransGender rights".

 

Also, making a game in which the character creation system is representative of how gender actually works is something which fits pretty damn well with a game which aims to make scenarios and gameplay elements that feel real. That's what's great about PZ, the realness makes it more intense. Representation is important and having your gender identity represented in a game and acknowledged as worthwhile can have a huge social impact, but even ignoring all of that it's still ultimately a matter of making realistic gameplay.

 

And yeah a mod that allowed for other genders than male and female would be great, but what would be even better is if the developers just put it in the game in the first place, and I'd like to think they're nice enough people to at least consider this seriously, rather than lazily dismiss the idea like you're doing. 'Go mod it yourself' (or ToastedFishSandwich's comment, for that matter) isn't an adequate and thoughtful response to criticism, it's a half-assed dismissal.

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I'm sure the devs might be considering implementing this sort of thing already since they were keen on allowing skirts to work on male sprite models, but if not here we go; allow male or female character creation options on the opposite gender or even better, do away with the male-female dichotomy fully and allow a character with 'female' hair and 'female' breasts to have a 'male' beard.

Allowing transgendered characters is the basic idea, thoughts?

I don't see why not, but this is probably more of a mod request than a vanilla feature.

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Honestly, they're right. This game isn't a platform for touting any particular agenda. Consider the character creator as choosing a sex rather than a gender if you must. Realistically speaking, aside from birth defects, there are only two sexes. Pick the sex that you'd like your character to be, and roleplay the rest.

 

I get annoyed with this kind of stuff (in before being called a bigot) because it adds nothing to gameplay. It can be roleplayed, modded, or simply ignored. Spending dev time to try to emulate reality exactly just as some exercise in enforcing "equality" or "rights" is not what video games are for. I also don't appreciate games that overtly push political, religious, or moral agendas, either.

 

Video games are not here to prove a point, make a stand, or show up bigots. They aren't here to teach a lesson or improve the moral fiber of the world. Video games are to have fun, relax, tell a story, challenge us physically or mentally. You may feel like you want your particular agenda pushed everywhere it can be- and it's good to feel that way; however, this is not the place for it.

 

Before I'm accused of just being against this because I'm religious/bigot/ignorant/insertinsulthere, I want it made clear that I know more non-straight people than I do straight people in real life. I'm all for equality and freedom for everyone to do and be what they want, but there's a time and a place for making points and pushing agends, and video games are not that.

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Honestly, they're right. This game isn't a platform for touting any particular agenda. Consider the character creator as choosing a sex rather than a gender if you must. Realistically speaking, aside from birth defects, there are only two sexes. Pick the sex that you'd like your character to be, and roleplay the rest.

 

I get annoyed with this kind of stuff (in before being called a bigot) because it adds nothing to gameplay. It can be roleplayed, modded, or simply ignored. Spending dev time to try to emulate reality exactly just as some exercise in enforcing "equality" or "rights" is not what video games are for. I also don't appreciate games that overtly push political, religious, or moral agendas, either.

 

Video games are not here to prove a point, make a stand, or show up bigots. They aren't here to teach a lesson or improve the moral fiber of the world. Video games are to have fun, relax, tell a story, challenge us physically or mentally. You may feel like you want your particular agenda pushed everywhere it can be- and it's good to feel that way; however, this is not the place for it.

 

Before I'm accused of just being against this because I'm religious/bigot/ignorant/insertinsulthere, I want it made clear that I know more non-straight people than I do straight people in real life. I'm all for equality and freedom for everyone to do and be what they want, but there's a time and a place for making points and pushing agends, and video games are not that.

 

I feel like what you're failing to understand here is that allowing players the choice to make their character any gender rather than just male or female isn't necessarily 'making a stand' or 'pushing an agenda', what the game currently does however is. The game as it currently is actively limits player to choosing one of two genders. That sends a message, it pushes an agenda, whatever you want to call it.

 

This isn't a choice between making a stand or not getting involved, it's a choice between perpetuating the prevalent and harmful view that there are only two genders (which is objectively untrue and socially problematic for those who identify as neither) or taking action to prevent yourself from doing so. Inaction on the part of the devs isn't them not pushing an agenda, it's just them pushing an agenda which is already prevalent enough that noone notices it.

 

Also, regardless of what video games are 'for', any creator of media has a responsibility to their audience. Whether they choose to examine the implicit messages their choices send or not, the message is still there and still has an effect, and it's their responsibility to acknowledge that.

 

I also disagree that gender nonbinary characters add nothing to gameplay, their inclusion allows for a more compelling and complex narrative with a wider variety of characters. It allows us to experience this world from a different perspective, that's certainly not nothing.

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Here's where I disagree with Rathlord a little, gender is a brilliant thing to explore in games.

 

However, Project Zomboid is not the game for that really, it's about survival at stupidly difficult odds, and simulating the world closely whilst being fun. And zombies.

 

Would this be an interesting to have? Maybe.

Would it be fun in the survival context? Probably not.

Would it add to the simulation / game to a great degree? Probably not.

Do the devs want to talk about or explore gender & gender politics in this game? Not in this way, see Lemmy's statement in general discussions, the women-different-from-men thread.

 

So, this really is one that'll be a mod-or-roleplay.

 

Feel free to discuss this, but unless a dev decides otherwise, this is effectively Confirmed: No, and discussion here is not going to change their minds.

 

If you choose to discuss, remember the forums golden rule at all times.

 

Edit: I should add, this game is not going into the details of gender identity and sexuality, because that's not what this game is about, but gender identity and sexuality *is* something interesting to discuss in a game that'd be more suited to it.

Edited by kirrus
tweaks

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Here's where I disagree with Rathlord a little, gender is a brilliant thing to explore in games.

 

However, Project Zomboid is not the game for that really, it's about survival at stupidly difficult odds, and simulating the world closely whilst being fun. And zombies.

 

Would this be an interesting to have? Maybe.

Would it be fun in the survival context? Probably not.

Would it add to the simulation / game to a great degree? Probably not.

Do the devs want to talk about or explore gender & gender politics in this game? Not in this way, see Lemmy's statement in general discussions, the women-different-from-men thread.

 

So, this really is one that'll be a mod-or-roleplay.

 

Feel free to discuss this, but unless a dev decides otherwise, this is effectively Confirmed: No, and discussion here is not going to change their minds.

 

If you choose to discuss, remember the forums golden rule at all times.

 

Edit: I should add, this game is not going into the details of gender identity and sexuality, because that's not what this game is about, but gender identity and sexuality *is* something interesting to discuss in a game that'd be more suited to it.

 

I'm glad you acknowledge the importance of representation of nonbinary genders, but I really disagree that the fact this game isn't about gender means it has to take a traditional stance. As I said before, actively forcing players to choose one of two genders is talking about gender and gender politics, I don't think PZ should get a free pass from having to think about the message it sends because it isn't expressly about gender.

 

But ultimately a no is a no and PZ is still a good game, it's just disappointing that the character creation system is staying the way it is.

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quite honestly, i fail to see a legitimate reason for the Devs to make it so you could have  "The Bearded Lady from the carnival" running around the game.

 

the characters in the game are supposed to just be average people in small town Kentucky, with average jobs, skills and traits.

 

this game is not the place for someone to make a stand for TransGender rights.

as has been said many times before, if this is what you want in your game.....why not learn how to make it into a mod?

 

The fact that you see people with nonbinary genders as "The Bearded Lady from the carnival", or that you see transgender people as being somehow not "average people" shows that this is exactly the place to "make a stand for TransGender rights".

 

Also, making a game in which the character creation system is representative of how gender actually works is something which fits pretty damn well with a game which aims to make scenarios and gameplay elements that feel real. That's what's great about PZ, the realness makes it more intense. Representation is important and having your gender identity represented in a game and acknowledged as worthwhile can have a huge social impact, but even ignoring all of that it's still ultimately a matter of making realistic gameplay.

 

And yeah a mod that allowed for other genders than male and female would be great, but what would be even better is if the developers just put it in the game in the first place, and I'd like to think they're nice enough people to at least consider this seriously, rather than lazily dismiss the idea like you're doing. 'Go mod it yourself' (or ToastedFishSandwich's comment, for that matter) isn't an adequate and thoughtful response to criticism, it's a half-assed dismissal.

 

no, it is NOT a half assed dismissal. if you fail to understand the concept of making a mod for something that would appeal to a small percentage of the player base instead of asking the Devs to do something that is really not even a consideration, then that's your problem.

 

just went on twitch, asked the people in chat on 15-20 different channels what they thought of the idea.

as a result i have been banned from 7 of them for trolling, in 3 channels the names i was called were completely new to me, and i've worked in the car business for 20+ years....and the rest of them, to put it nicely, told me to go eff myself. now this is a sampling of roughly 4-500 people. average people.

 

choose your battles. don't just randomly decide that you want suggestion X in a game because then Group X can use it to make a stand.

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Perhaps a simple way to view the game in it's current form is this:

The current check in the game as selecting the basic (anatomical) sex of the character, rather than defining the gender. That is left up to the player.

(Please don't hurt me.)

 

This is pretty much what I'm saying.

 

Also, you're wrong on one thing: Choosing anatomical sex is not an agenda, point of view, or fallacy. There is no in between, aside from, once again, birth defects such as having abnormal chromosomes that cumulate in androgyny. There's nothing wrong with being androgynous, just like there's nothing wrong with having 6 toes, brown eyes, or being colorblind. Just because it exists is not a reason to add it to the game. Gender, on the other hand, is left solely to the whims of the player in PZ as is. This is a bare bones character creator. Asking for something as highly specified as this in a game with such simple characteristics, in this regard, is pushing an agenda.

 

Further, having sex (for pleasure or procreation), having children, rape, and the like are all on the list of confirmed no's. In a game that makes no attempts to deal with sexuality in any way whatsoever, saying (or implying) that it's "part of the problem" just because it wants to happily ignore some of the more controversial topics floating around is a really negative standpoint in my opinion.

 

This is slightly off topic, but I find the idea that the whole world and everything in it needs to be a billboard for every cause is distasteful to me. Perhaps there is a place for exploring this concept in video game media, but acting like it's the responsibility of every video game to push for change- of any sort- is wrong. Just like poetry, prose, architecture, song, paintings, sculpture, and every other form of art, it should be up to the creator whether they want the piece to be an expression of self, pure entertainment, or present some moral or value. I find it every bit as wrong as censorship to tell an artist that they must force a lesson on their audience.

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I don't see where all the controversy is coming from, all I'm calling for is there not to be a gender/sex button.

Rathlord, gender is not sexuality so please leave this thought on the ground straight away. I know sex in this game is a confirmed no, and thid thread is about gender not sexuality.

I understand if the devs don't want to implement this and its their call in the end but I reckon the possible representation it will provide to pz trans* players would make some people quite happy. Plus this also paves the way for a better character creation screen, things like a male with 'female' hair should not be controversial.

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