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Women and Men in Project Zomboid.....


Migoxiss

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I know, this will sound like a Anti- Woman Campaign. But I do wanted to discuss the following thread:

What if the devs would ,,change" the pros and contras of women and men?

Women:

-are a bit weaker than men

-cant run for long

-are more likely to have bad feelings (I dont know about this one :D)

+are faster in organazing and moving items between containers

+when NPCs are implemented maybe have a better chance to become a member of a group

+have faster learning in cooking and farming

Now to men:

-are a bit unnorganized (moving items slow between containers etc.)

-are not so good in farming, cooking like woman EXCEPT they have the right jobs for it.

-they dont have the same chance like woman to become a member in a group

+are not likely to be scared ( yeah these are personal questions I know and it all depends on the character but I just wanted to describe my ideas)

+are faster, stronger

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I guess it's a question of the work invested as opposed to the actual benefit seen by the player in game. As in, would it feel any different?

I don't think it would.

 

Let me address your main points.

 

1. are a bit weaker than men

 

Are women able to crush a skull with a baseball bat. Yes. Is it worth changing the game to reflect their differences in stamina and strength. Probably not.

 

2. cant run for long

 

See 1.
 

3. are more likely to have bad feelings (I dont know about this one  :D)

 

Are women more emotional than men, generally speaking. Personally, I would feel so yes. Are they less strong for it. I don't think they are. A woman may cry but they're stronger for having cried as they no longer have that burden.

 

4. are faster in organazing and moving items between containers

 

I've read articles that highlight that men have better spacial awareness but I've not seen anything that highlights better or inferior organisational skills. People vary too much for this to be worth implementing. Even if there are any differences between the genders at all.

 

5. when NPCs are implemented maybe have a better chance to become a member of a group

 

I could see this actually. It'd get awfully lonely in the zombie apocalypse, there would be lots of exercise and a good diet of fresh fish and fresh vegetables. All things which certainly don't hinder libido. If you pair that with the trauma that would be experienced almost daily  I think attraction between the genders would be increased. Speaking personally, I think without TV, computers and other entrainment you'd get bored. It's no coincidence that the birth rate in the UK boomed 9 months after the blackouts (brownouts to my American cousins).

 
6. have faster learning in cooking and farming

 

Again, not sure what exactly you're basing this on?

It's important to remember that when women appear to specialize in a role it's quite often because they've been excluded other male roles due to a male-centric society that has - in many instances - considered women to be second class citizens.

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I haven't researched much into it but what I saw someone say (I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't true) is that women are more capable of doing two things at once than men, who often can only focus on 1 thing. Basically - let women have an advantage at doing two things at once (Currently the game only allows 1 action at a time), but due to how society works today, only let women be "Stout", not "Strong". (Tell me how many "Ripped" women you've seen outside on a street compared to men? :P) Or you can set the "Can do 2 things at once" as a perk, which will cost 2-3 points less for women, while "Strong" will cost 2-3 points more. 

 

I don't think making things "exclusive" to certain genders is the right way to go, because you can always find exceptions among the people. We still have "Strong" women in real life (Culturists that build muscle), we still have men that are overly emotional, etc. However, letting 1 gender have advantage in certain trait over the over seems like a fair way to go. But then again it's not because they are "much different", but because how the society was built for many many years.

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I know, this will sound like a Anti- Woman Campaign. But I do wanted to discuss the following thread:

What if the devs would ,,change" the pros and contras of women and men?

Women:

-are a bit weaker than men

-cant run for long

-are more likely to have bad feelings (I dont know about this one :D)

+are faster in organazing and moving items between containers

+when NPCs are implemented maybe have a better chance to become a member of a group

+have faster learning in cooking and farming

Now to men:

-are a bit unnorganized (moving items slow between containers etc.)

-are not so good in farming, cooking like woman EXCEPT they have the right jobs for it.

-they dont have the same chance like woman to become a member in a group

+are not likely to be scared ( yeah these are personal questions I know and it all depends on the character but I just wanted to describe my ideas)

+are faster, stronger

All these 'traits' are not exclusive to one or another.  Some are stereotypes from a man centric society.  I wish to address this, even though Strider did a good job above.

 

Women:

-are a bit weaker than men <- Not necessarily, There are some real tough women out there, as well as weak men.

-cant run for long <- Says who exactly?  Are you imagining a woman running in pumps?  Most runners I know are women.

-are more likely to have bad feelings <- Women are a lot better at emotional regulation than men.

+are faster in organazing and moving items between containers <- Some people are more organized than others, not really exclusive to one sex or another.

+when NPCs are implemented maybe have a better chance to become a member of a group <- Valuable people are valuable regardless of sex.

+have faster learning in cooking and farming <- This one seems the most stereotypical of all.  Did you know that a lot of good cooks and most farmers are men?  Given the chance, anyone can be good at these things, and not one sex has a natural talent at one or the other, its just about exposure and experience.

 

men:

-are a bit unnorganized (moving items slow between containers etc.) <- See above.

-are not so good in farming, cooking like woman EXCEPT they have the right jobs for it. <- Again, see above.

-they dont have the same chance like woman to become a member in a group <- Why would you think this?

+are not likely to be scared <- I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. Perhaps you could tell me?

+are faster, stronger <- Men may be on average physically larger, it does not mean they are 'stronger'  Conditioning determines this, not sex.  As far as faster, not to sound like a broken record, see my point above.

 

I know you said this was unbiased, but what I think you are failing to understand is that you are writing this is a world that is still getting over being mostly male dominated.  Society has taught people that these differences are based on sex, as in "The weaker sex" etc, but are equally applicable to men and women.  Women have been relegated to the kitchen and house work for most of history, while men were relegated to hard labor.  This was a social pressure more than a reality of the abilities of the two sexes.  Now that the world is becoming more equal, and women and men are being treated more as equals, we can see that no one sex is really better than another in most things.  The facts are no women or man are born better at cooking for carpentry, but because we have delegated these roles to a particular sex is the reason you and most others might see sense in your suggestions.  We must be aware the difference from reality versus our personal experience and how we are raised.

 

TL;DR Men and women are just people, and people can be good or bad at one thing or another.  To segregate this ability or that to one or another is unfair and unfounded.  It is probably for the best to keep things equal. I know personally my wife is a better cook and I am a better gardener, and my buddy is an excellent cook, while his wife has a degree in horticulture.  If all four of us were to race, us guys would probably get our doors blown off and left in the dust.

 

Note: I wrote all of this just to maybe change your viewpoint, and not to knock your suggestion.  Cheers! :)

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I know, this will sound like a Anti- Woman Campaign. But I do wanted to discuss the following thread:

What if the devs would ,,change" the pros and contras of women and men?

Women:

-are a bit weaker than men

-cant run for long

-are more likely to have bad feelings (I dont know about this one :D)

+are faster in organazing and moving items between containers

+when NPCs are implemented maybe have a better chance to become a member of a group

+have faster learning in cooking and farming

Now to men:

-are a bit unnorganized (moving items slow between containers etc.)

-are not so good in farming, cooking like woman EXCEPT they have the right jobs for it.

-they dont have the same chance like woman to become a member in a group

+are not likely to be scared ( yeah these are personal questions I know and it all depends on the character but I just wanted to describe my ideas)

+are faster, stronger

All these 'traits' are not exclusive to one or another. Some are stereotypes from a man centric society. I wish to address this, even though Strider did a good job above.

Women:

-are a bit weaker than men <- Not necessarily, There are some real tough women out there, as well as weak men.

-cant run for long <- Says who exactly? Are you imagining a woman running in pumps? Most runners I know are women.

-are more likely to have bad feelings <- Women are a lot better at emotional regulation than men.

+are faster in organazing and moving items between containers <- Some people are more organized than others, not really exclusive to one sex or another.

+when NPCs are implemented maybe have a better chance to become a member of a group <- Valuable people are valuable regardless of sex.

+have faster learning in cooking and farming <- This one seems the most stereotypical of all. Did you know that a lot of good cooks and most farmers are men? Given the chance, anyone can be good at these things, and not one sex has a natural talent at one or the other, its just about exposure and experience.

men:

-are a bit unnorganized (moving items slow between containers etc.) <- See above.

-are not so good in farming, cooking like woman EXCEPT they have the right jobs for it. <- Again, see above.

-they dont have the same chance like woman to become a member in a group <- Why would you think this?

+are not likely to be scared <- I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. Perhaps you could tell me?

+are faster, stronger <- Men may be on average physically larger, it does not mean they are 'stronger' Conditioning determines this, not sex. As far as faster, not to sound like a broken record, see my point above.

I know you said this was unbiased, but what I think you are failing to understand is that you are writing this is a world that is still getting over being mostly male dominated. Society has taught people that these differences are based on sex, as in "The weaker sex" etc, but are equally applicable to men and women. Women have been relegated to the kitchen and house work for most of history, while men were relegated to hard labor. This was a social pressure more than a reality of the abilities of the two sexes. Now that the world is becoming more equal, and women and men are being treated more as equals, we can see that no one sex is really better than another in most things. The facts are no women or man are born better at cooking for carpentry, but because we have delegated these roles to a particular sex is the reason you and most others might see sense in your suggestions. We must be aware the difference from reality versus our personal experience and how we are raised.

TL;DR Men and women are just people, and people can be good or bad at one thing or another. To segregate this ability or that to one or another is unfair and unfounded. It is probably for the best to keep things equal. I know personally my wife is a better cook and I am a better gardener, and my buddy is an excellent cook, while his wife has a degree in horticulture. If all four of us were to race, us guys would probably get our doors blown off and left in the dust.

Note: I wrote all of this just to maybe change your viewpoint, and not to knock your suggestion. Cheers! :)

This, so much this. Well said.

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The only aspect of this suggestion that I agree with is the part that women have a more likely chance of getting accepted into a group. Let's face it, most guys will treat the opposite gender nicer than they treat their own (especially if they're good looking) and in a post-apocalyptic scenario I think men would be more than willing to have a female companion with all the loneliness going around ;)

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I advise before further discussion to look at actual research studies, all of which find little if any difference between men and women in all the things you claim. The closest thing is that women are known to be better long distance runners than men, but the reasons why have yet to fully be discovered. By long distance we're talking marathons (26+ miles) which is longer than the current running distances of our towns in the map.

The only thing I could partially agree on is perhaps women would be easier to get into a group, especially if they are deemed pretty. But considering such a factor would be ridiculous to program, beauty is more opinion based than anything, and all these suggestions are either farce info or just foolish to implement, I'd say no to this. I'd much rather see characters grow stronger/faster over time (unless they just sit around doing nothing and so don't maintain that strength and speed), than a ludicrous thing such as inherent sex differences outside of chromosomes, genitals, and physical cycles which already were decided not to be done in this game (thus why you don't need to go to the bathroom everyday in PZ).

I get you're trying to help but I don't think throwing sexism into the game is a good idea. I mean it's fine if one of the NPC's decide to be one, you could always shoot the fucker and take his guns but other than that lets not delve deeper into such matters.

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On the topic of the current distinctions between men and women. There already is a small one active within the game. The fact that only women can wear skirts. While personally I would probably attempt to rip a large portion of the legs off of the trousers(if I knew I still would have a pair of trousers) before I would put on a skirt. If such a thing would be impossible for whatever reason, as is the case in the current version of the game, I would sooner wear forsake the trousers and put on a skirt than run around bare chested under the summer sun(which anyone who has had sunburn can tell you is a not a smart idea). After all one of the manliest of societies in our western civilization wear kilts(which is basically a manly version of the skirt) as their traditional clothes. So why wouldn't men be able to wear skirts during a zombie apocalypse, one where eating rotten food and drinking bleach are options?

 

It's a serious question, as the skirt has a temperature advantage over the trousers during the warm months.

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So why wouldn't men be able to wear skirts during a zombie apocalypse, one where eating rotten food and drinking bleach are options?

 

It's a serious question, as the skirt has a temperature advantage over the trousers during the warm months.

The devs have stated the gender limitation on clothing will be removed in the future.

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I know, this will sound like a Anti- Woman Campaign. But I do wanted to discuss the following thread:

What if the devs would ,,change" the pros and contras of women and men?

Women:

-are a bit weaker than men

-cant run for long

-are more likely to have bad feelings (I dont know about this one :D)

+are faster in organazing and moving items between containers

+when NPCs are implemented maybe have a better chance to become a member of a group

+have faster learning in cooking and farming

Now to men:

-are a bit unnorganized (moving items slow between containers etc.)

-are not so good in farming, cooking like woman EXCEPT they have the right jobs for it.

-they dont have the same chance like woman to become a member in a group

+are not likely to be scared ( yeah these are personal questions I know and it all depends on the character but I just wanted to describe my ideas)

+are faster, stronger

I think your heart is in the right place, but holy shit, you have some weird ideas about gender.

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I don't run, ever...  unless the cops are chasing me, but I'm not a bad person, so I don't run, ever.  I'm sure there are many women who can out run me due to this. 

 

I don't lift weights, I tend to lounge more than get exercise, I have my hobbies that keep me active, but am by no means a tough or fit guy.  There are plenty of women who could kick my a$$ I'm sure. 

 

My line of work requires in depth and high attention to detail organizational skills.  I need to keep a neat workspace and maintain exceptional quality as well as keep up with the fast paced environment around me.  There are many women I'm sure would be less a neat freak than me simply because of the years I've spent that require such an ability of me. 

 

I am the cook of the house, the gf is good, but she will not get into it as I will... I'm originally from the south, so have many cajun recipes that put me a notch above many others who simply bbq or boil some ramen.   Though I do not farm, I am usually testing my fresh produce in various ways before deciding which veggies I'll be using in my meals I prepare.  My gf is more than happy to buy frozen and let the microwave or oven do the rest.

 

Lastly, If I were in a Zombie Apocalypse, the only woman I'd want with me is my gf, if I have one at the time of the Apocalypse... that will be plenty enough drama for me.   Though I do feel that you'd risk getting other men in your group that might go all Shane on you (Walking Dead)  In the end, I would feel a lot less regret if I failed a male partner than a female one.  I would rather there be more men in my group because of this.  I would likely get myself killed trying to save a women member simply because I feel she would have needed my help more, even if she didn't.

 

I could maybe see them stereotyping some NPC's to make the world seem more 'stuck in it's ways' natural and perhaps may be more emmersive because of this, but I feel there should be no restrcitions based on Sex when creating a character to play. 

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This is generalizing people, though. Men can be smarter than woman, or more organised, but I've met plenty of woman that are stronger and more athletic than other men. So, I don't think these sort of bonuses will work. It needs to be all based upon a character's past traits and skills, rather than their gender overall. 

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Hey,

 

intressting posts here. I think it would be kinda cool to make the genders different from one another. Here are some results from a scientific study. The text is in german so i try to translate the important parts (poorly)

 

Physique:

Women in general are smaller and have a lighter frame than men. Their bones are 25 % lighter and and due to that their bones are more prone to breaking under extreme situations. Women have thinner shoulders, shorter arms and legs and and a broader hip, which (compared to men) lowers their mass center. That means they will be not as good in running and jumping disciplines as men while its possitive while swimming.

 

Muscle:

This is the part where the performance of the genders are most different. Women have lighter muscles than man and their body is (again in general) consisting about 10% more fat than men. This fat is often saved in the muscles and makes the muscle performance of women weaker than mens.

 

Organs and Breathing:

Since women are lighter and smaller than men their organs also are smaller and a bit weaker compared. They have a smaller hearth and less blood than men. This also means that the womens maximum air intake is a bit lower than mens.

 

Heat regulation:

Again men are a bit better having more and bigger sweat glands. Sports Scientist in 1971 also discovered that women will lose muscle performance earlier than men when being dehydrated.

 

Results:

Women only have 2/3 of the muscle strenght a male has.

The saved fats in a womens body are an advantage on very long runs.

Women are about 10% slower than men.

Women have in general a better hand eye coordination. (what ? not the women i know ;) )

Women have more water and fat in their muscles making the muslce more agile but also more prone to injury.

 

Conclusion (not from the text but from me)

 

I don't think the differences are big enough to make this whole thing work. There are women that are faster and stronger than most men it's just not that common.

 

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I recall having to do 15 pull-ups in gym class to get an A; females in the class were expected to do 1 - many were unable.  Yeah. I'd say there's a significant difference there.  Also, the argument that "some women are stronger than some men" is completely irrelevant.  Comparing the weaker of one group with the stronger of another says nothing about the average strength of the groups individually - and if you want to have a strong woman, that's what the "strong" trait is for...  I don't particularly care anyway, just my two cents.  

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I recall having to do 15 pull-ups in gym class to get an A; females in the class were expected to do 1 - many were unable.  Yeah. I'd say there's a significant difference there.  Also, the argument that "some women are stronger than some men" is completely irrelevant.  Comparing the weaker of one group with the stronger of another says nothing about the average strength of the groups individually - and if you want to have a strong woman, that's what the "strong" trait is for...  I don't particularly care anyway, just my two cents.  

 

That's called school. And school is notorious for being sexist while at the same time measuring everyone the same way, gym class is the worst example of it. I still recall from first grade a few guys who unassisted had to jump over their shoulders in height to pass the grade. While the girls passing height was something some of them could pass without a problem.

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From reading the OP stuff, i knew right off the bat this thread would be disaster, so far so good with the opinions, lets see where this takes us.

 

It had the potential to be horrible. There are a few defining characteristics of zombie apocalypses that make me (and to a certain extent others) love them so much. Here is what I think they are:

 

1. They're a great leveller. Rich or poor, we're all the same now.

2. You get to prove your worth to a group.

3. You have the potential to be a hero.

4. You get to live a life of excitement. (Even if the excitement -  more than likely - lead to your gruesome death)

 

I think some games don't usually attract women. CoD MP with it's racism, misogyny and general hatefulness might be a good example. Zombie games - especially ones which allow for player socialization - are not one of them. I've noticed quite a lot of women like to play these games.

 

I'd feel slightly ashamed (as a man) if they came in and we're made them feel less as a person because of something I'd written. That's unacceptable to me. I hope I've avoided that.

 

edit: Grammar.

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To be fair you can totally roleplay this now. Of you wanted to have the idea of a woman being dainty or whatever you could have the weak trait and have graceful instead, and you could have brooding and whatnot. The perks are not only there as a metagame to find the best balance.

Theres also the idea that as a female gamer wouldn't really want to play someone who is completely useless in combat, in a game where it is one of the key aspects


 

I recall having to do 15 pull-ups in gym class to get an A; females in the class were expected to do 1 - many were unable.  Yeah. I'd say there's a significant difference there.  Also, the argument that "some women are stronger than some men" is completely irrelevant.  Comparing the weaker of one group with the stronger of another says nothing about the average strength of the groups individually - and if you want to have a strong woman, that's what the "strong" trait is for...  I don't particularly care anyway, just my two cents.  

 

That's called school. And school is notorious for being sexist while at the same time measuring everyone the same way, gym class is the worst example of it. I still recall from first grade a few guys who unassisted had to jump over their shoulders in height to pass the grade. While the girls passing height was something some of them could pass without a problem.

 

Hah that's simply a measure of muscle mass to fat mass. I can hang, i can't even lift my body up slightly, and i'm a strong guy, just very heavy

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It is not often that I feel the need to walk away from a thread, but this is one of those times.  Good luck with the discussion! :)

Props to you for knowing where your limit is, and not making us have to step in. I do so dislike dusting off the banhammer. Have a clyde. (clyde)

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