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Yet another thread about sleeping (in MP)


deprav

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...But with different concerns !

I was thinking MP being imbalanced -ie. easy to survive but yet servers being emptied of all the loot in a couple of days- is due to the fact sleeping is totally out of the picture.

Our body needs 3 (4) things to survive : food, water and sleep (and Oxygen). The MP game having only two of those needs, for now, obviously removes a big part of the survival aspect and, since you don't need to sleep, you get more time to look after the two other needs (food & water).
Second point, since people never sleep they're able to roam around the map constantly. They don't need to plan dangerous long journeys and they never have to take a stop-off. Imo the absence of sleep also plays a part in the crazy rate at which servers get emptied since the time spent "not-sleeping" is some time spent looting the map, the "looting radius" around people's safehouse is almost infinite since they don't need to stop to take a nap and can come & go in one big run.

It would also make safehouse a more tangible thing since you'd need a safeplace to sleep somewhat safely.

 

On a more practical gameplay aspect, we know time warp is not an option in MP. We can assume what most people fear about real-time sleeping is the fact they'll have to sit and wait, doing nothing in front of their screen.
My wise dude side would tell you to use those moments to appreciate Life, breath deeply and think about the world, but yeah I know it's not what people want to do when they play PZ :)
So, a way to keep players busy should be found.

Lesser thought :

and why not making it having an impact on the rest of the game ?  I remind "playable dreams" being discussed in the suggestion sub-forums, and I'd like to bring that idea back. A last-stand mod kind of phase -just like the one already in the game, but "faster paced", since the sleep periods would be shorter than the actual last stand mod- with an outcome having an effect on your awake playtime :

> if you die in your last-stand dream it's considered a nightmare, you wake up and get a negative effect on your char such as +sadness and less sleep reduction.
> if you survive until the end of your sleep/nap, your sleep reduction remains untouched, and maybe a bonus ? (even tho, a quiet sleep in an apocalyptic world is already a bonus in itself ;p ). Or mayhaps your next dream could be a quiet fishing dream, as a reward for surviving the last one.

If it's not something the devs want to incorporate in the vanilla game, if a modder reads this I hope he'll consider working on it when MP sleep is here !

 

Also I'd like to use that thread to ask the devs for any information about their positions/ideas about sleep in multiplayer (?), and how much of a priority it is for them (?). Because I'm waiting for it pretty hard :3

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I'm pretty sure last time the playable dreams thing came up it got shut down by a developer (and for good reason, imo). PZ doesn't have minigames, and shouldn't. It's not the right kind of game for that.

 

The thing that should (and does) limit looting and travel is night time. If it's not now, then in the future, at least, it should be dangerous to travel at night. You could wander into a horde without realizing it, and then have no idea how to get away.

 

Further, people play PZ to play PZ. I just don't see a solution to this being having long chunks of time where people are doing meaningful things that add to the gameplay experience.

 

And finally, the devs have mentioned "naps" which could take about the same time as sleeping does in singleplayer (fast forwarded) that would at least mean finding somewhere safe to set down every once in a while. I think this is as good as we're going to get.

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I definitely like the positivity in the suggestion, as well as the fact you've given examples as opposed to simply shouting "It's broken, Do stuff!". :)

 

I think the all-round best outcome to tackle the sleep issue is actually just the blank screen.

 

I'll try explain why.

 

  • Sleeping is an inconvenience. Both in game and in Real Life. Sleeping should be something that requires planning. "I need to make it back before I collapse". "I can't wander too far, I'm getting tired". "I need to get out of here but I'm so tired". Sleeping should, nigh, NEEDS to be worried about.
  • Loss of control over your character should be part of the worry about sleeping. Black silence is intimidating. "What's going on?", "Is somebody sneaking up on me?", "Are Zombies at the window?!", "Crap! I forgot to close the downstairs door!". Being helplessly asleep can be quite tense!
  • No mini-games. Having a mini-game to play every single time your character lays their head down would get incredibly tedious after a while. Although servers can change it, days tend to fly by quickly in Zomboid so sleep will happen often. On top of that, what happens if somebody attacks you in your sleep? The game would have to close down the mini-game rapidly and return you back to the world but by the time the world streams back into view again, it'd be too late.
  • Player traits should play a part in sleep. A "Light Sleeper" trait (Like the Security Guard's "Night Owl") Would allow a player's character to wake up at disturbances easier, such as a zombie at a window or a player opening a door downstairs. It might also reduce the time required for the player to look at a black screen before they wake. Likewise a "Heavy Sleeper" trait would mean players might need to sleep for longer or be easier to sneak up on or even make snoring noises which gives them away or attracts Zombies.

 

I totally agree with the point that players can't be bored while they wait. That's why I liked Indie Stone's original idea that the player needs to wait for about as long as they would in Single Player for day to arrive, but obviously without the fast-forwarding. So it's almost like the player "napped". I am reminded of the old game "The Ship" in that regards.

 

Ultimately, I definitely think sleep should be somewhat of an inconvenience and a concern to the player.

 

How about instead of a "Mini-game dream", the game was able to take 3-4 snapshots over the course of 1 in-game day. Then when the player sleeps, it does a slideshow of those snapshots/screenshots. Kind of like a reflection of the last day. It could serve as a sort of diary of your daily experiences.

"Ahhh yeah! I remember fighting those zombies there earlier. That was a close one!" 

To avoid cache build ups, the "screenshot" log is cleared after waking each time (or disconnecting) and 3-4 new ones are taken during the following in-game day. I could be speaking naively here though, I am not a coder or programmer.

 

Anyway, just an idea.

 

I could go on, but I don't want to TL;DNR any more than I have!

 

_________

*EDIT*  Haaaa! Rath covered some of my points while I was writing the novel that was my post. :D

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Yeah the mini-game part is most likely right. That's not my main concern tho, having a black screen would do just fine by me, I'm a patient dude, and I can always check something out of the game or use the time for a judicious toilet break. My main concern is about the lack of sleep making the rest easier than it should be. (I'm even gonna edit my OP to make it clear ^^)

But I know a lot of people ain't very "nothing-to-do" enthusiast, sadly.

I pretty much like the nap idea, just like classic RPG in which you could choose to sleep for X ingame hours. Someone patient, in a safeplace, could set a few hours of sleep to get through the entire night. When someone who cba waiting, or someone in a dangerous envrionement, would take a 30 minutes nap, he would probably feel less rested but could go back to play faster.

 

 

Sleeping isn't an inconvenience irl for me, I love to sleep ;o

Otherwise I agree on all the points you made, I just hope the majority of PZ players do as well. The idea of a slideshow made of a few snapshots of the past day is awesome !

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I like the idea snapshots of previous day to have something to look at while you sleep... granted I've yet to play MP, so probably shouldn't add an opinion.

 

BUT, what about the ability to pan the camera around the area you are sleeping?  A way to watch the wandering zombies that are near by outside. Or when NPC's once re-implemented you can see them going about their business nearby...  Could have 'light sleeper' 'heavy sleeper' traits that if you notice trouble within or banging on your house you're in then there is a chance to wake up and handle it; unless you chose to take heavy sleeper as a flaw.  in which case, you could be forced to watch a zombie eat you where you sleep or an NPC/PC rummage through your wares and take what they may?  

 

An issue with this could be how you normally have no clue what's going on around you unless you're looking in that direction and no walls blocking your view... however, once you awake, you'll only really have a general idea of where things were prior to you waking and it could help add to the list of 'things to address' before continuing on.  Plus, you may be paying attention to what's going on in your backyard while you sleep, neglecting what may be going on in the front yard. 

 

Or, perhaps with the plethora of reading material around, perhaps you yourself can choose to physically read some of this material...  Newspapers can have imerssion helpers that help define the locations on the map and add details you normally don't get to see.  Manuals can be silly 'for dummies' style books for you to flip through and get a laugh.  Perhaps you can even physically write what you've been writing in a journal or piece of paper so that one day someone else may find these writings and get to read them while they sleep. ?  eh!? 

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Panning around while asleep is something I'm more opposed to than any other idea here- as much as the idea of black screen doesn't appeal to me sheerly in terms of game design, in terms of realism giving the player more situational awareness while asleep is even worse.

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Panning around while asleep is something I'm more opposed to than any other idea here- as much as the idea of black screen doesn't appeal to me sheerly in terms of game design, in terms of realism giving the player more situational awareness while asleep is even worse.

I agree with this. While seeing what's going on around you while you sleep might be considered a nice feature, it would be really bad for the immersion, as well as bad for the game itself since you would be able to see and react to a situation that your character shouldn't even be aware of. If you could see what was happening while you were asleep, you'd know exactly what to do once your character wakes up, and therefore have way more time to make a move in your favour (and pretty much remove the advantage that a person sneaking up on you should have) than if you had to fully awake first and only then be able to comprehend what is happening (and later react to it).

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Imo I think that they should implement a "status" bar like when reading a skill book. But that status bar goes from "in danger of passing out" , all the way to "energized". You go to sleep and the bar begins to fill, and the longer you sleep the greater your character is "refreshed", but you can't always wake up at the moment or time you want to awake. Unless they add some type of battery powered alarm clock, but then that alarm clock will make noise and draw zeds attention. Also when you are sleeping you can still see your character but its like your character is blind and your hearing is dramatically reduced.

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Yeah, panning camera would take away from what the game currently tries to do with how little you can see unless you're 'checking it out' with your character's eyes. I accept that as a bad idea.

What if the scenes happening in your dreams aren't really happening, but sorta like a show to watch? Or maybe a mix of premonition and night terrors, so what you thought you saw could have been a nightmare... Until you open your door and Argh!

A bad dream could consist of multiple zeds breaking in and flooding the house, but then you wake up and all is perfectly fine. But you may want to check around the house just to ease the tension. A tension moodle that gets satisfied by combing the area.

I don't know, just tossing out some brain farts.

Edit: I like the status bar idea actually... With an 'awake' option and it's up to you to find the time in your game to sleep and get that bar raised to a comfortable level. The lower the bar the harder it is to awake when you want to. Passing out should be difficult to acheive, but possible.

Edit#2: Can you create multiple players on one save/game? I was thinking they could allow sleep to function when offline, so if one of your characters gets tired you can log another one and play in same game while your tired character gets his/her much needed rest.

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It would be cool if most of the loot in containers would just be hidden from the player unless they have a lightsource (lighter or flashlight) which would simulate being unable to see a small multitool under thousands of pots in a nearly pitchblack night in a pitchblack cupboard, for example.

This would atleast require the player to search more for lightsources or not to go looting at night :D

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Bla Bla Bla

I love the energy bar idea! It should be considered as a feature if the engines capability can do it.

 Edit: Yeah, energy bar/status bar seems like best Idea I've read so far... 

 

On another note, I'm 15 days in and power/utilities just went out...  I've got very little water saved, but planning to make rain collectors here soon (hope it's not too late).  My question is, how does anyone run around in a pitch black home with no light sources and loot?  Adjusted brightness settings?  I can't loot with no light, let alone find my way to the kitchen to grab a bite to eat >.<   I hadn't tried using a lighter, candle or flashlight yet...  Was thinking of building a lamp in my safehouse, is this a good idea or should I keep my only flashlight for carrying around?

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I think sleeping should be like minecraft, in the way that if all players are sleeping the time speeds up but if only one is it would turn the screen gray with a 80% opacity to indicate its just a nap and u would actually restore some energy.

 

Yeah this system i really good. Especially if you plan to play with mates on a private server where u try to survive together... Unfortunately im still waiting for the survival aspects to make this game interesting again (sleeping mp, hording, npc, lategame stuff). I can wait another half year for sure (clyde) (clyde)

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Bla Bla Bla

I love the energy bar idea! It should be considered as a feature if the engines capability can do it.

Thanks! Way to make a new player want to leave.  =\  Constructive criticisms would have been preferred, sorry you had to read my post. 

 

 

On another note, I'm 15 days in and power/utilities just went out...  I've got very little water saved, but planning to make rain collectors here soon (hope it's not too late).  My question is, how does anyone run around in a pitch black home with no light sources and loot?  Adjusted brightness settings?  I can't loot with no light, let alone find my way to the kitchen to grab a bite to eat >.<   I hadn't tried using a lighter, candle or flashlight yet...  Was thinking of building a lamp in my safehouse, is this a good idea or should I keep my only flashlight for carrying around?

Oh, I put the blablabla only because I didn't want to copy your big text wall again, I didn't mean to offend you. Sorry!

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Make it so that you only need to take naps (hour or two per day) instead of sleeping 6-8 hours. Unnatural but works better game vice. Right now as lights arent syncronized in multiplayers night operations suck a bit... (flashlight party awww yiss).

 

Additional features for napping:

- Players in coop mode can sleep over the night

- Well rested/energized perk

- Better recovery from illnesses

- Only while sleeping player could level up (like in Oblivion)

Lack of sleeping makes some items and perks irrelevant, so it should be implemented in some form.

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I think a stamina bar would work for in multiplayer. (Could promote co-op play as in you would probably want someone nearby to be on the lookout while your resting.)

 

Have your character have to sit down/rest after doing too much work to continue to do more. (Note this should not include combat situations as sometimes you can't avoid zombies do to people attracting a ton of them.)

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I think if a nap option was added for multiplayer, it should be for a fixed amount of game time, say 1 hours. Then the server owner can change how long the sleep time would be by changing the length of the day. So If people want to roleplay sleeping they can join a longer server, and people who may not have long to play games can join a shorter server so napping wouldn't take them too long,

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Alternatively, allow the player to wake themselves (either by moving WSAD or by clicking).

This way the player can sleep for as long or as little as they want.

 

However, a minimum of 1 hour must be slept in order to abolish fatigue. Resting for longer will grant a "well rested" bonus that multiplies (like the well fed buff) based on how long the player sleeps.

For example, If the player breaks sleep after only 30 in-game minutes, their character won't have benefited because they didn't get enough sleep. 

 

This would also mean anyone wishing to Role Play sleeping can do so without being forced to wake up after 1 hour.

It will also allow players to be idle during long, uneventful nights without getting the "bored" and "depressed" moodlet.

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