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Stumbling - formerly Tripping and Falling


Jatta Pake

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Edit: May 8th.  I've re-worked this concept as Stumbling based on the great responses below.  Jump to that post with the link here: Link

 

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Tripping and Falling

 

Hear me out.  The idea that your character might trip and fall to the ground on occasion is horrifying, especially if you are fleeing a horde. But that is the precisely the point.

 

The basic idea - Sprinting through tall grass or heavy foliage with a low Sprinting skill level should cause the character to run the risk of tripping and falling to the ground.  This would result in a momentary stop to movement as your character staggers back to his or her feet.

 

What does this add to the game? Like real life, the environment matters. Running down a highway should be easier than crossing rural areas on foot.  Untended countryside has holes, divots and plenty of uneven terrain on the ground.  Obscured by tall grass and this combination could be downright ankle breaking!  Players will need to make interesting choices about how they approach their environment. Do you run across the open field to escape the zombies or take your chances inside the broken down cabin?

 

But how would I escape zombies if I can trip and fall? Maybe you should re-think attracting a big horde. Or maybe you should up your Sprinting skill.  Maybe running like a mad man through the woods isn't a great idea and you should stick to established the paths.

 

Tripping and Falling is a standard trope in every single zombie movie or TV show.  Why? Is it because movie and TV writers have no imagination? Maybe.  But I would argue something different.  People do trip in fall in real life and the chances are higher in high stress situations or when one is rushing.  But it adds something to the movie and TV: DRAMATIC TENSION.  I guarantee that any player who is frantically trying to avoid a horde, only to trip and fall in tall grass, will never forget the animation of their character slowly getting back to their feet as the horde closes in.

 

Ok, ok.  But it seems like a lot of development effort for an event most players will avoid.  I mean, once "trip and fall" is introduced, people will stop sprinting through high grass areas, right? Ah yes, but here is where the beauty comes in.  Add to this idea that players can craft concealed trip wires in the undergrowth as part of a trap.  Or what about crafting concealed pitfalls that can cause walking characters fall down so that you don't even need to be running to fall over.  The mechanic of temporarily stopping a character's movement doesn't currently exist in the game.  You can be slowed, but not stopped.  A stopping mechanic would shift a considerable advantage to the zombie horde.

 

Another application is the use with non-lethal weapons.  What if you can knock a character over with bat or drop them with tear gas looted from the Police Station?

 

Combine "Tripping and Falling" with something like the Erosion Mod and suddenly, every day becomes a more challenging fight for survival.

 

Thoughts? Criticisms?  Hate it? Love it?

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I quite like the idea itself, but there's a reason it isn't common in zombie-genre games - player control responsiveness.

It's quite a big deal in polishing a game, and can be a nightmare for developers to balance correctly.

 

To describe it as simply as I can, off the top of my head - An unresponsive game often receives negative criticism for 'floaty' controls, or 'delayed reactions'. A responsive game will usually not garner any player feedback with regard to the input -> response because it should make the game feel either very natural, or nice and sharp.

You want to avoid unforeseen hinderances, or 'random' unexplained obstacles when directly controlling an in-game object. Think of some sort of platformer or endless running game, and how much of a hassle it would be if you had to jump to avoid obstacles and take into account a short spring or crouch before jumping, or even worse if the character you controlled had to complete a full step before jumping - so if you tap jump mid step, the character completes the stride before jumping, but if you tap jump just as a stride ends, the character almost instantly leaps.

 

A character which simply slows or stops for no apparent reason would lead to great frustration among players, and I for one would probably abandon playing after it happened two or three vital times, causing misfortune or death.

Some kind of visual representation would help alleviate that frustration, like a small stone or pothole, at least then I could attribute my misfortune to my own lack of awareness and not just some 'calculated' chance based off my stats.

 

tl;dr - While I agree it could be quite cool to see implemented well, it is quite unlikely that unforeseen, unavoidable character impedances would be received well by players. Knocking over a character with a bat, or causing them to unpreventably slow down due to tear gas are great ideas, because the cause of the unresponsiveness can be seen and determined, and possibly avoided by the player before it happened.

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Honestly I hate tripping and falling while running from a horde would most likely just make me mad and make the game less enjoyable. Just like watching people trip and fall in zombie movies and tv shows, it happens way to often and it's not that hard to stay on your feat, though it may add some realism it really is not necessary at all.

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I think i gave this opinion already in previous topic: No no nonono no random stuff killing me in a permadeath game.

 

 

Edit. 

 

About knocking other survivors out, i want it  naaaaaaaaaaao. Also stuff like handcuffs or heck, even rope and other means that will help with disarming people invading my house / people i meet in a looting place who i dont really want to kill.

 

Edit no.2

 

Tripping over wires probably will come together with traps.

 

 

 

Also, if we can trip and fall, why shouldnt zombies do? They are clumsy and retarded, they should be tripping all day. Going upstairs? Nope, you tripped and fell down clumsy bastard. Going over window? Lay down asshole. Chasing me over the street? Well sorry, you tripped on a kerb Mr.Zomboid.

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I've always believed that if tripping and falling were to ever be implemented into the game that it can't remove the player's ability to control their character. If you trip running forward it should translate to a desperate forward scramble that at worst slows movement a bit before your character manages to get back up and keep hauling ass outta there. It adds to the atmosphere without detracting from a player's sense of control. At least not nearly as much.

 

If you fall, it should not stop movement. It should add a debuff to movement speed, but never stop your character. If you character trips, whatever directional movement you attempt should instantly becomes a crawling motion if walking speed or a crawling scramble that rights your character into a sprint after a few feet if you try to run. It's a lot more animation work, but I feel it accomplishes the desired sense of atmosphere without feeling like artificial difficulty or a cheap trick.

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Thank you all for the well thought out replies.  I hadn't thought of some of the items mentioned. I'm always amazed at the game design expertise from members on this board.  I'm going to boil down what I think are the essential criticisms of my original proposal, and then touch on things that I think might improve it.

 

Randomness - It seems the randomness in the original idea hurts perception of control responsiveness AND raises the stakes too much in a perma death game.

 

My arguments for randomness is that it already exists to some extent. A scratch or a bite can be fatal. You can randomly catch a cold from being out in the rain too long. But I cannot think of an existing random mechanic that significantly changes control responsiveness.

 

I'm going to digress a little in an effort to better conceptualize whether this random loss of player control would hinder the game.  This may sound odd but hear me out.  But if I turn the mechanic upside down but leave in the randomness and loss of player control, is the game hindered?  Let's say instead of stopping when your character randomly trips, your character is insta-launched ten tiles forward.  It's a ridiculous thought but it works for this thought experiment.  Would players be annoyed if their character randomly teleported ten tiles forward when moving through certain types of terrain?  My answer would be yes for the same reasons folks stated above. It would be jarring and frustrating to lose control randomly.

 

This thought experiment kinda confirms the drawback to random tripping.  So I think my original idea needs to be modified, perhaps in the way Kajin suggests or another method.

 

Stopping Mechanic - Now I'm going to isolate and examine the Stopping Mechanic alone.  My previous thought experiment works for this too.  Let's say Sprinting onto a particular tile launches a character forward ten tiles like a sort of conveyor ramp thing in Mario Kart and other games.  Certainly, it would be ridiculous in the context of PZ but as a mechanic itself it appears in a lot of games.  I think they had these things in the first person shooter Unreal Tournament as well.  So the loss of control isn't the issue because there is still a perception of control.  If I drive or run on a conveyor thingy, I know it will launch me rapidly forward so I feel like I am in control.

 

Stopping itself appears in a lot of games.  You can be dazed in a fighting game.  You can be frozen in some shooter games.  You also stop when you hit a natural physical barrier in games, like a wall in Project Zomboid.  Players don't complain when they run into a wall in the crushing darkness within a building at night. And this can easily lead to perma death.

 

But a wall or a fence is an acceptable stopping barrier. Another point: I think control responsiveness is augmented in games with a stopping mechanic by giving the player the option to rapidly jiggle the joystick or tap a key to recover from the stop.  In PZ, you will stop when you hit a fence, but hitting "e" will let you climb over.  So there is an existing mechanic in place for overcoming a stop in PZ.

 

A Better Trip and Fall

 

I'm in agreement that falling down should not be random for the reasons stated above.  If a character is going to trip or fall, it should be based on the tile whether the tile has a trap object or some type of uneven terrain.  Players should be able to choose to avoid the tile or expect the results of crossing such a tile.  Perhaps uneven terrain tiles only cause falling when 1) Sprinting through the tile, and 2) The Sprinting or other appropriate skill is low.

 

Stumbling

 

Perhaps my idea should be renamed Stumbling.  I think you could actually nearly stop a character without loss of the perception of control.  So using Kajin's idea: Characters crossing "ditch" or "rocky" or "unstable" terrain tiles will "Stumble" if Sprinting with Low Skill or with Negative Traits.  Players can craft "traps" on regular tiles that act as "unstable" terrain tiles.  These traps and terrain tiles would need to be visible to players, but tall grass could make them harder to see on screen (so pay attention!).  Similar to the darkness inside buildings at night, perhaps players will not see these traps or terrain types at night.  But if you know where they are you can know to slow down and walk over them safely.

 

Instead of an animation that has the character stop completely on a tile and sprawl immediately to the ground like an idiot, tile to tile movement continues at an very slow rate, almost stopping.  The animation would show the character stumbling to regain their footing that gives the illusion of no loss of player control responsiveness.  The character recovers after crossing a second tile and automatically goes into a Walking mode.  This would be important to prevent characters from encountering a big block of "uneven" terrain and getting trapped "Stumbling" inside.  But if a player kept trying to Sprint while in the middle of a block of uneven terrain, then they will continue to Stumble, Slow, Recover, Walk until they stop being an idiot.

 

So here is my new improved suggestion for Stumble:

 

  • Triggered by visible uneven terrain type tile or visible player crafted traps on tiles in daytime
  • Terrain type and traps are less visible at night
  • Triggered by Sprinting in above tiles AND,
  • Triggered when low in a skill OR with a negative trait like Clumsy
  • The Event is that character movement slows significantly
  • The character animation shows the character stumbling but player maintains directional control
  • Ends after crossing the second or third tile (regardless of type)
  • Character is returned to a Walking mode and must re-engage sprinting if desired (release and depress shift key)

What This Adds To The Game

  • Increases the affects of the environment on players. In addition to monitoring character moodles and environmental barriers like walls, fences, and trees when Sprinting, players will also need to consider the ground
  • Provides a new mechanic for traps, pitfalls, and non-lethal weapons
  • Provides a new crafting purpose/goal - for example, crafting wooden floors over uneven tiles or using the spade to alter these tiles could eliminate Stumbling - imagine crafting a bug out path through a big block of uneven terrain
  • Adds dramatic tension. Stumbling increases the chances zombies will get you.
  • Increases the difficulty of traveling outside at night
  • Provides a "home court" advantage play element.  One challenge invading armies have is that defenders always "know the terrain".  Similarly, knowing a map area should provide an advantage to players just as traveling in new locations should have more inherent risk.  Being able to sprint through openings in trees and avoid uneven terrain should allow players to "melt away" quickly in MP combat

Thoughts on the new, improved Stumbling mechanic? Criticisms?  Other ideas and suggestions?

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Disclaimer: I didn't read all your post, I don't have time right now. But here's my response to the first part at least.

 

Randomness - It seems the randomness in the original idea hurts perception of control responsiveness AND raises the stakes too much in a perma death game.

 

My arguments for randomness is that it already exists to some extent. A scratch or a bite can be fatal. You can randomly catch a cold from being out in the rain too long. But I cannot think of an existing random mechanic that significantly changes control responsiveness.

 

I'm going to digress a little in an effort to better conceptualize whether this random loss of player control would hinder the game.  This may sound odd but hear me out.  But if I turn the mechanic upside down but leave in the randomness and loss of player control, is the game hindered?  Let's say instead of stopping when your character randomly trips, your character is insta-launched ten tiles forward.  It's a ridiculous thought but it works for this thought experiment.  Would players be annoyed if their character randomly teleported ten tiles forward when moving through certain types of terrain?  My answer would be yes for the same reasons folks stated above. It would be jarring and frustrating to lose control randomly.

 

This thought experiment kinda confirms the drawback to random tripping.  So I think my original idea needs to be modified, perhaps in the way Kajin suggests or another method.

The randomness itself is not the issue, indeed randomness is needed in almost every game to an extent, else you'd be playing the same game over and over if you did the same things each time.

Randomness, or rather the player not knowing before the encounter, is in most games - from the next brick in tetris, to the loot of that crate in PZ.

 

As for your examples, a scratch or bite can be fatal, and catching a cold may happen if you're out in the rain, but the clear distinction between those and tripping/stumbling on rough terrain, is that those are avoidable by the player themselves.

The scratch or bite occurred due to player error, it's luck (or randomness) as to whether that mistake is fatal or not.

If it's raining outside in the game, you can remain indoors until the rain has passed. It would be mostly luck (or unluckiness) if you caught a cold due to the player deciding to venture out into the rain.

Tripping or stumbling on rough terrain while running from a horde, whether you get launched forward ten feet, or come to a complete stop, is pretty much unforeseen by the player. Sure, the player made the choice to venture onto the rough terrain at a sprint, but at what point they are going to trip or be flung forward is not known until after it has happened.

 

If I wasn't in a bit of a rush now, I'd dig you out some academic papers on the subject, if you want people to ever play your game again or give it a second chance after being fatally punished for something outside their control (or outside their senses - ie. they cannot see, hear, or sense it from any kind of in-game feedback), well, you just can't take away the responsiveness.

You mention Unreal Tournament and Mario Cart, but again, in both those examples you can foresee the tile or cause of your 'boost', and consciously choose to avoid it, or approach it.

 

That's just my thoughts though. It's not the randomness itself that is the issue, it's that an action which could result in perma-death would be unforeseen and almost entirely unavoidable.

To me, it's like if the Sadistic Director decided "Meh, this player is a chump, next time he tries to sleep, he will die without warning from a heart attack".

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I support this idea :)

 

Also being tired would increase the chance of tripping as you're not paying much attention to the things on the ground, you just want to sleep.

 

Also... tripping on zombie bodies :)

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I am against this tripping, taking any control out of the player is horrible game design, and in a game like PZ where your suppose to be immersed and be yourself, your gonna get pulled out of it because the game decided "LOL IMA TRIP YOU!" whenever it decided like it.

And I know specific conditions should be met were mentioned like having a low sprint skill or walking through tall grass but thats honestly just dumb on its own premise. I for one never trip or stumble my balance is nearly perfect, this game isn't going to decide I am not good at it.

But what about the reverse? What if in real life you trip constantly? Well its still bad game design its out of the players control, and taking control out of the player doesn't work.

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As the post above Says, Taking Control from the Player is just outright terrible Game design, Too many games nowadays do it, where in some cases you spend more time Stunlocked, Than ACTUALLY playing the Game.

 

Now, Not to say the Tripping mechanic is a bad one, But rather than Outright Stopping the player and taking control away, Slowing them down considerably and having predefined objects that cause tripping would be a much, much better alternative. It'd maintain the Tripping hazards, whilst keep the Player in control at all times, Because face it, Do YOU want to play a game where you can't actually play, Because you are constantly tripping?

 

 

(I was playing Magicka the other day, I came accross the Ice Sword wielding Goblins, They perma froze me until I died, and proceeded to do so until I quit and went to Play something else, Something else that doesn't take control from me and allows me to continue playing)

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  • 2 months later...

Here's an idea: Your chance of tripping/stumbling only really increases on crappy terrain, such as swampy/muddy areas near the river, or when attempting to sprint through/over the rubble of destroyed buildings. Areas where it would be logical for a person to trip/stumble/fall down if they weren't being slow and methodical with the way they placed their feet. Throw in a bit of the player character mumbling about how the ground is loose (perhaps even a 'loose ground' moodle), and you could have something.

 

Could lead to interesting gameplay if you think about it. A person could carefully clamber up a mound of loose gravel onto some industrial equipment, but the zombies chasing them just keep stumbling and falling over each other. Do you take the short sprint across the destroyed building/contents-of-a-spilled-truck to get away from the horde quickly, or do you take the long way around and risk being grabbed by an unseen zed lurking in the trees?

 

Give the player options, control and consequences for their actions in other words.

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